Open Circuit Faults - 1-1200km after 2.0T Coil Swap

[e30mclow]

All,


A month or so ago I swapped over to 2.0T Coils using the "solder" method posted within Audizine.
Everything went as per the plan, and the car was running perfectly once I changed out the plugs for sidefires.

In the last week I started getting obvious misfires, so I scanned for codes (please note that I was keeping an eye on codes after going to 2.0t coils, and I wasn't getting any previous to this).

Upon reading the codes, I cleared them to ensure none were from me f-ing around pulling coils etc, took it for a drive which has resulted consistently in the following.
Please note that I've added the "standard" go-to causes for each code group, just for clarity to those of varying experience.

P1358 - Cylinder 2 Ignition Circuit: Open Circuit
P1364 - Cylinder 4 Ignition Circuit: Open Circuit
P1367 - Cylinder 5 Ignition Circuit Open Circuit
P1370 - Cylinder 6 Ignition Circuit: Open Circuit
- Faulty Ignition Coil
- Ignition Coil harness is open or shorted
- Ignition Coil circuit poor electrical connection

P0300 - Random Cylinder Misfire Detected
- Faulty spark plug (s)
- Faulty ignition coil (s)
- Clogged or faulty fuel injector (s)
- Intake air leak
- Fuel injectors harness is open or shorted
- Fuel Injectors circuit poor electrical connection
- Ignition coils harness is open or shorted
- Ignition coils circuit poor electrical connection
- Insufficient cylinders compression
- Incorrect fuel pressure

P0301 - Cylinder 1 Misfire Condition
P0302 - Cylinder 2 Misfire Condition
P0306 - Cylinder 6 Misfire Detected
- Faulty spark plug X
- Clogged or faulty fuel injector X
- Faulty ignition coil X
- Fuel injector X harness is open or shorted
- Fuel injector X circuit poor electrical connection
- Ignition coil X harness is open or shorted
- Ignition coil X circuit poor electrical connection
- Insufficient cylinder X compression
- Incorrect fuel pressure
- Intake air leak


I've gone back and traced all spliced wires, and everything appears OK. Given that this appears to be ALL cylinders, I was leaning towards it being an issue with the ICM splices rather than the individual cylinder splices.
I've pulled everything apart and it all appears to be fine. I've rolled each connection while the engine is running, and there is no discernable deviation to indicate a potentially poor solder.

I doubt the coils (genuine BOSCH) or plugs are failing, as they're only 1-1200kms old, if even.

A poor ground somewhere?

[blitz2190]

Sounds like possibly broken solder connections, the wires break free inside the solder and cause high resistance. Get some uninsulated butt connectors and heat shrink, make the connections, solder the connections then heatshrink.

[e30mclow]

Sounds like possibly broken solder connections, the wires break free inside the solder and cause high resistance. Get some uninsulated butthe connectors and heat shrink, make the connections, solder the connections then heatshrink.

Yeah, I figure it is one of the ICM wires that have worked loose due to heat..
Hmmm...I suppose I'd better re-do them all just to be safe..


Thanks!

[e30mclow]

So I just re-did the ICM portion, making sure things were 100%, and it made no difference..

I hardly have the same issue across ALL cylinders individually...hmm.

I did a "neat" job the first time, so there isn't much wire to play with at each coil location.

Could it be anything else?

[RickyCastro]

I just replaced my wiring harness because I cut and solder. I went with 034's connectors this go around. Best decision I ever made with this car.

[e30mclow]

I just replaced my wiring harness because I cut and solder. I went with 034's connectors this go around. Best decision I ever made with this car.

Ahhhhhh, seriously? First I've heard of tithe solder method being a lemon... wtf!

[jaychen]

double check your connections.

if you have wired it correctly, soldered correctly, i see no reason for you to be worrying now.

[Penpusher]

Solder doesn't belong in automotive applications. If you elect to re-do connections I recommend using uninsulated crimp connectors, a ratcheting crimper, and adhesive lined heat shrink.

Doesn't necessarily mean that the joints are your problem, but something to consider.

[e30mclow]

So I undid each connection, each solder, cleaned everything up and used butt splices & adhesive heat shrink to rebuild the whole thing.
I double checked the wiring diagram along the way.

Finished up an hour ago, and the car is still running shit. Plugs and coils have minuscule mileage on them.

Those of you that are more electrically minded - what can cause the codes above to be thrown across ALL cylinders?
What the F is the next step?

I am booked in for a new clutch this Saturday $$$$$, and need it running right..

[Zba]

It sounds like in the process of doing coil upgrade the wires were damaged further up from where you did the work. Pin out all of the wires from the ecu to each coil. Use the wiring diagram to find common wires, a ground possibly, to go after first.

[e30mclow]

Something like the solution here? Just stumbled across it this evening...

No solution - http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...7772-and-17775

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...n-Intermittent

http://*******************/forum/index.php?topic=288.0

Edit - seems we can't link to another popular Audi forum lol

[e30mclow]

I've been looking all morning, has anyone got a B5 S4 ECU Pin Out ID List?

I've found partial ones on NefMoto, but not a complete one, specifically indicating which pins send signal to Cylinders 1 thru 6.
I want to check continuity between there and the appropriate pins on my modified harness...

[bobkatkat]

I've been looking all morning, has anyone got a B5 S4 ECU Pin Out ID List?

I've found partial ones on NefMoto, but not a complete one, specifically indicating which pins send signal to Cylinders 1 thru 6.
I want to check continuity between there and the appropriate pins on my modified harness...

I know I had one from someone on here when i made up a bench flashing unit. But I can't find it now. Do you have the 2.7 wiring diagram PDF's?

[e30mclow]

I found the following, but I need to verify:

Cylinders 1-3: Pins 94, 102, 110 - which pin is cyl #1, #2 and #3 isn't 100% clear, but easily solved.
Cylinders 4-6: Pins 95, 103, 111 - same as above, I don't currently know which is which.

I'll update once I find out.

I'll grab a multimeter from Canadian Tire on the way home from soccer and spend yet another evening on this thing.

[Zba]

That's the life of a b5 s4 owner 😐

[e30mclow]

That's the life of a b5 s4 owner ��

It is incredible, seriously.
I reviewed what I have spent on it since buying it, and it is depressing. It was running fine when I bought it, and it certainly wasn't a lemon, it's just a chain reaction.

Since it rolled off the train and into my ownership in Feb, I'm easily $6.5-7k into it for very little.

I just want to get the f-ing clutch in this weekend and have it running right again, but she is fighting back.
I've had an e30 m3 and e34 m5, and this just blows my mind in terms of issues & costs.

[Jon B.]

Yet another reason for me to buy the complete kit. I'm not cutting/splicing an old wiring harness. There are too many things that can go wrong.

[Zba]

It is incredible, seriously.
I reviewed what I have spent on it since buying it, and it is depressing. It was running fine when I bought it, and it certainly wasn't a lemon, it's just a chain reaction.

Since it rolled off the train and into my ownership in Feb, I'm easily $6.5-7k into it for very little.

I just want to get the f-ing clutch in this weekend and have it running right again, but she is fighting back.
I've had an e30 m3 and e34 m5, and this just blows my mind in terms of issues & costs.

With two kids I'm ready to jump ship. I don't have the time. Unfortunately for me the car I'm looking at is probably going to cost me more time/money/pain in the long run: W211 E55 :/

[e30mclow]

No to get off track, but I often considered the e55 too.
I'm getting the itch bad to get back into an e34 m5. A hammer fixes everything on those, and it is built like a tank.

[e30mclow]

OK, so back on track here..

So tonight I went about verifying continuity (not sure if that is the correct tinder term) between the ECU output pins, and the coil connectors.
The following is what I observed having checked all coil pins, and the ECU output pins noted above:

Cylinder 1 - ECU pin 110 to coil plug pin 3
Cylinder 2 - ECU pin 102 to coil plug pin 3
Cylinder 3 - ECU pin 94 to coil plug pin 3
Cylinder 4 - ECU pin 103 to coil plug pin 3
Cylinder 5 - ECU pin 111 to coil plug pin 3
Cylinder 6 - ECU pin 95 to coil plug pin 3

Using my new multimeter (now added to the collection of tools needed to maintain a B5) I verified that there was continuity across the harness in terms of ECU output.

I also verified that there was continuity across the harness for all coil plug pin # 4s to the ground strap behind the expansion tank.


So...where do I go to verify coil plug pins 1 & 2? The old ICM butchery points?

I must not have erased codes after redoing the solders (to crimps), but I did erase them this evening and take the car for a decent drive - RESULT - I didn't "feel" any misfires, but am still throwing open circuit codes on cylinders 4 & 5.

I repeated the process over again, and I can say that the issue is consistently on 4 & 5.
I swapped around the coil packs and the codes remained specific to 4 & 5.

We're getting close! If someone can tell me how to verify pins 1 & 2 on the coils, I may just be able to crack it....

I'll try and keep this up to date, as I've not found an open circuit thread closed out.
Thanks everyone again for the ongoing help - I almost traded it for an e34 m5 today, but I'm feeling a little more pro-audi after tonight!

[Zba]

Everything you need is in here

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...rsion-Hardwire

On my phone, sorry no link

[e30mclow]

Thanks again, that yielded this:

On OEM 3 wire connector:
Pin 1 (1)= Signal
Pin 2 (4a) = Ground
Pin 3 (15) = +12v

on 4 wire connector
Pin 1 = +12v
Pin 2 = ttl ground
Pin 3 = signal
Pin 4 = ground

Meaning I will turn on the key, and check for a constant 12v to pin 1, and verify ground to the valve covers via pin 2.

Hold shit we're only bloody well getting there!

[Zba]

Correct. Don't forget to wiggle the wires while checking this stuff.

[e30mclow]

Is the 12v constant to pin 1?
I also can't seem to find these grounds to the valve cover (ttl ground)...? I've found reference to 4cyl applications, but not to the 2.7.

[Zba]

According to that diagram yes, it is a 12v supply.

As far as the ground I believe you need to make a ground as the original bolt down cool packs are grounded by the bolting action. Someone else can correct me if I'm wrong but the Porsches, vws and audis I've worked on with push down coils have always had a ground pigtail bolted to the valve cover.

[e30mclow]

Wouldn't be hard to do, but that would make for a lot of redundant wiring within the old loom.

Would be easy to crimp on 6 round connectors, and use one of the bolts on the 034 spacer kit to ground each one individually. Haven't seen anyone else do it though...

[Zba]

Maybe it's the other way around and the coils that are bolted down have a ground wire on the valve cover. It's been a while.

[Robsa6]

ground to the valve cover... same exact thing I went thru

[uponone nogaro]

So we have to take apart the two brown/yellow wires an ground them to the valve cover or do we add a wire to the already connected brown/yellow wire an ground them all

[e30mclow]

So we have to take apart the two brown/yellow wires an ground them to the valve cover or do we add a wire to the already connected brown/yellow wire an ground them all

Seems like it, just funny that I've not found it documented anywhere.
I have received a PM from another member with a suggestion that I'll try before earthing to the cam covers, I won't go into details as it may confuse things at this point.

My question now is, how come the 034 harness adapters don't ground to the cam covers? They are essentially just joining up the same wires we are, but without open circuit faults..?

[Zba]

Voo Doo

[oppositelock]

Seems like it, just funny that I've not found it documented anywhere.
I have received a PM from another member with a suggestion that I'll try before earthing to the cam covers, I won't go into details as it may confuse things at this point.

My question now is, how come the 034 harness adapters don't ground to the cam covers? They are essentially just joining up the same wires we are, but without open circuit faults..?

People have done it both ways, with success both ways.

[bobkatkat]

To be honest I have never looked at the soldering method and just went with a kit, but in following Gerard's problems it seem like this has happened before. How much different can the harness kits be compared to the DIY?? Is it just that in the extra stress that pulling on the the harness to solder exposes a possible week/cracked or corroded ground in the factory harness somewhere? Could that explain why some have success and others need to do the ground to the valve cover.

[okkim]

TTL ground should go to the original ground wire, and the power ground (pin 4) to the intake ground point ( not to the valve cover ), the same where the harness ground is. 034 wiring kit is made wrong. It works with the both grounds wired to the same point (OEM wire in the wiring harness), but it is not done correctly. It can produce electrical interference. I have tested it both ways, and the correct way works better.

[e30mclow]

To be honest I have never looked at the soldering method and just went with a kit, but in following Gerard's problems it seem like this has happened before. How much different can the harness kits be compared to the DIY?? Is it just that in the extra stress that pulling on the the harness to solder exposes a possible week/cracked or corroded ground in the factory harness somewhere? Could that explain why some have success and others need to do the ground to the valve cover.

**posted before seeing/reading okkim's post**

I thought that it was perhaps the solder points that were skewing things, but now having gone to a neat & tidy crimp (with adhesive & heat shrink) I'm leaning less towards that being the root cause.

The original harness only seems to ground to the bulkhead/firewall for 1 of the 2 (#4) ground pins on each retrofitted coil connector, so I can only presume that the ground issues associated with pin #2 are down to an issue with the ground wires on their way back to wherever they're grounded. I was under the impression that pin #2 ground was linked into the harness and back to the ICM area, where the link says to abandon the ground wires.

Odd one.

[e30mclow]

Bought some bits & pieces this morning.

I'm going to put contact grease on all coils (in contact with the spark plugs - it can't hurt?) and connections, reroute the #2 pin to an insulated loop terminal bolted to one of the bolts that holds down the 034 coil spacers.

Another point of note is that the push on coils do in fact work their way loose for some reason, ultimately causing a misfire code to be thrown. The OE rubber gasket that comes on the coils isn't suited to the 034 spacers, so they need to be removed in order to press fully into position. I may put a few wraps of electrical tape around the holding points so as to tighten things up.

Further to this - this S4 (my first Audi) has stolen every evening/weekend from me! I've not been cycling/running/socializing since owning it. It eats free time and money to stay alive, and whenever one runs out, the car takes it out on me. Good thing that it looks awesome being parked, as it certainly likes to do that.

[bobkatkat]

Bought some bits & pieces this morning.

I'm going to put contact grease on all coils (in contact with the spark plugs - it can't hurt?) and connections, reroute the #2 pin to an insulated loop terminal bolted to one of the bolts that holds down the 034 coil spacers.

Another point of note is that the push on coils do in fact work their way loose for some reason, ultimately causing a misfire code to be thrown. The OE rubber gasket that comes on the coils isn't suited to the 034 spacers, so they need to be removed in order to press fully into position. I may put a few wraps of electrical tape around the holding points so as to tighten things up.

Further to this - this S4 (my first Audi) has stolen every evening/weekend from me! I've not been cycling/running/socializing since owning it. It eats free time and money to stay alive, and whenever one runs out, the car takes it out on me. Good thing that it looks awesome being parked, as it certainly likes to do that.

Are you sure you have the 034 spacers oriented properly? The packs should fit very snug and seat properly as is. Do you have the right Coil Packs?

I feel so guilty that I have a stage 3+ that has never in 15years broken down. Almost makes me want to give you mine for a month so you get the bad taste out of your mouth. But in reality the car can't be blamed for the 2 months of DT for bad gas, the raping you took for out of province inspection and the Coil swap. It does look great even just sitting there, but it looks even better as a shrinking dot on the horizon in front of some wanabee's. As mine did this afternoon...just a shrinking silver dot in the windscreen of some big turbo MK4..

[JVD]

I've got a spare set of spacers if you want to compare. Might have a coil pack too. I'll have to look. Send me a PM!

[e30mclow]

I am aware of there being about a 6-8mm difference in length between comparable OEM 2.0T coils, depending on which revision version I received. Remember, I did the swap based on the solder method thread posted here, which is a few years old, so the part# quoted would not have been most current (a realization after the fact).

In reality, what issues have I ACTUALLY had that are the car's fault? None really...

- Bad gas made me rip the thing apart several times - couldn't have planned for that.
- The FX400 clutch didn't like daily 1st gear commutes, and bit the dust - my choice to drive it daily
- The rear main seal leak - it wasn't even leaking! It turns out that it may be the secondary water pump weeping, coolant settling in the V, going ugly and occasionally leaving a goo puddle.
- The coil swap - I had misfire codes on my stock coils, and decided to go for the 2.0T solder method - my choice. I carried out everything meticulously, but there seems to be issues. I'm endeavoring to solve these, and keep people updated as to how. Could have gone with new stock coils, and wouldn't be having this discussion.

Thanks JVD, I'll see how things pan out tonight with the revised grounding, and get back to you if necessary! Would I recognize your B5 around Calgary?

[e30mclow]

Time for an update of the positive kind!

Tonight, as promised, I decided to run pin #2 ground wires to a better ground point on the cam covers, as opposed to being routed back into the old loom.
In the interest of furthering knowledge on this coil swap method I decided to only do cylinders 4-5-6 for, and will continue to monitor and compare bank behaviour.

Initial results? I'm back in the game, baby! Went for a drive and was hitting max PSI with no stutters or hesitation. Black lines in 2nd

I'm going to clear all codes in the AM, drive to work, and then report back with whether or not there is a distinguishable difference between banks. The answer will obviously be yes. I'll then hopefully close out this thread (for now) and add a link within the solder method thread.

Once again, thanks to everyone that has helped! This forum is by far the most useful and knowledgeable that I've come across!