A4 B5 quattro: next evolution - time for fun

[genecan]

Well, this thread is about my intentions and process of upgrading my A4... again

The car: 1999 facelift A4 B5 1.8T (ANB engine) quattro. The car is planned to be a frequent track participant, but also used in town (I know, I know I can't have it all... but I will try).

The story: began in 2008 when I upgraded my car with APR Stage III kit, Racetec FMIC, APR 2,5" turboback exaust, street density package, some gauges and all the rest of supporting mods to make it happen. The car was dynoed at 262 bhp on pump gas.

The car was fun, but as usually - I got bored, and wanted more. With more power in my mind I decided to upgrade the power transmission to the wheels. This summer I bought from a 2000 S4 B5 transmission (DSY), drive shaft, rear differential, axles, hubs and brakes. All of this is already mounted on the car, but more upgrades are to happen soon.

The aim: 480 hp tuned for mid-range power. I hope to have your support around here.

The plan:

Engine upgrades (2.0L stroker):

Short block
- ABF crank - PURCHASED;
- Mahle 83 mm stroker pistons - PURCHASED
- IE Tuscan 144 x 20 mm (unfortunately I bought regular H-beam IE and now I need to sell them first) - PURCHASED, NEED UPGRADE, Update - Scrach IE, there will be PAUTER rods in the engine, no rifle drilling! - PURCHASED;
- New audi oil pump - PURCHASED;
- Rosten performance girdle kit with new ARP smaain studs for 058 girdles - PURCHASED.
- New crank, main and rod bearings Calico, ACL??? - Decision was made for Vandervell/Mahle Motorsport sets - ordered +0.25 main and + 0.5 mm rod bearings - 5 grooved/ 5 plain shells.
- Head gasket for ALT - PURCHASED;
- IM shaft seal and bearings - PURCHASED;
- Front and rear seals - will be sourced by the shop;
- Full set of gaskets - will be sourced by the shop;

AEB head:
- IECVA2 cams - PURCHASED;
- IE cam gear - PURCHASED;
- New Audi hydraulic lifters - PURCHASED;
- New Ferrea intake and exhaust valves PURCHASED;
- Supertech springs and Ti retainers kit - PURCHASED;
- New Supertech valve guides - PURCHASED;
- New chain tensioner - PURCHASED;
- ARP head studs - PURCHASED;

Other:
- Timing Belt - NEEDED;
- IE dowel pin kit - PURCHASED;
- Rollers and tensioners, serpentine belt, water Pump, thermostat - will be sourced by the shop;

Forced induction:
- S4 B6 V8 4.2L MAF;
- Log T25 manifold - PURCHASED; I have two - APR which will be my first option, if not - SPA TMA01;
- BW EFR 7163 - PURCHASED; Upgraded recirculation valve and IWG actuator - Turbosmart TS-0620-1143 with set of springs for up to 26 psi spring pressure, TS-0203-1261 - PURCHASED
- ER competition FMIC kit - PURCHASED;
- IE large plenum intake manifold big port - PURCHASED;
- 3'' turboback exhaust system - NEEDED, decided to stay with custom 3" downpipe and the 2.5 APR to the back, but + open exhasut valve after the downpipe.

Clutch and flywheel (+ bolts):
Single mass flywheel new (refurbished) from old school I4 audis - PN 026105269L(X)
Upgraded pressure plate for 2.2L turbo 3B engine - Sachs PN 3082999707
Custom ceramic 6 puck friction plate made from 23 spline 240 mm core
Very happy I did not go into extremely expensive clutches. This one is reasly well priced and ofthe used in projects north of 500 hp in Europe
As for the clutch I will leave the part numbers above for refference for other builds, but I found it may be a problem to fit a sprung friction disc.
I will probably go with custom steel flywheel for RS4 B7 cluch with 8-puck ceramic disc.

Ignition:
- 2.0TFSI coil conversion kit and coils - PURCHASED;

Fueling:
- Bosch 044 + 034 adaptor - PURCHASED;
- ID1000 w/ P&P adapters PURCHSED;
- Adjustable FPR - initial idea fro Bosch was now substituted for Tubosmart FPR 1200 (TS-0401-1004) - NEEDED;

Water/Methanol injection system ??? - NEEDED, may be give up on this system for now.

Brakes:
- New S4 321 x 30 mm front and 256 x 25 rear rotors (Audi) - PURCHASED;
- Stoptech street performance front and rear pads - PURCHASED;
- Stoptech braided lines - PURCHASED;
- Brake repair kits and caliper paint - PURCHASED.

Although this set up is on the car I will upgrade to B6 S4 set up.

Suspension:
- Sturn adjustable upper control arms - PURCHASED;
- CPP adjustable rear links - PURCHASED
- TRW/Lemforder control arm kit and tie end rods - PURCHASED;
- RS4 front and rear sway bars - PURCHASED;
- Front and rear Wiechers strut bars - PURCHASED;
- DGR coilovers - street version - PURCHASED;

Drivetrain:
- RS4 transmission (FDP) - PURCHASED; but decided to stay DSY wuith the T3.
- Center T3 torsen differential (RS4 B7) 40:60 bias - PURCHASED;
- Adapters for T3 differential to fit in 01E - NEEDED;
- Wavetrac rear TBD/LSD - NEEDED;

We are starting with Brakes/Suspension work. A teaser pic:

[IMG][/IMG]

[redline380]

Wow, great build you have going. Are you originally from Bulgaria? Your English is better than half the members on here who have it as a first language!

Interested on you rear brakes though. What car are the rotors off of? Never heard of that size.

[coolgraymemo]

oh lawd.

[genecan]

Thanks!

The rear brakes - OEM S4 B5, it was a typo...

[B5A4coastie]

Your English is better than half the members on here who have it as a first language!

HAHA!

Best of luck, sounds like a solid build.

[Avant Nate]

Looks awesome. I would think that regular IE rods would be fine?

[genecan]

Looks awesome. I would think that regular IE rods would be fine?

Leaning towards the rifle drilling i.e. forced pin oiling - plan to rev 8000 - 8500 rpm, might be an issue, though still finding controversial information.

[genecan]

It has been almost an year since the initial post, so I decided to give some updates.

Right after most of the parts from the first picture were installed my friend - the owner of the shop, took the car out for a test and ... a rod decided to see the car from outside :) Could not even touch the car after the the install... So she was brought back to the shop and parked for better times...

Meanwhile few new parcels arrived:









and few more - updated in the first post.

Since I do not have an engine I have the chance to start from scratch - 06A or 058.

I did some calculations and for me is cheaper and probably easier to stick with 058, but one thing bothers my mind - after I shave the IM gear end, should I worry for failure of the IM/oil pump failure in high revs?

I would appreciate your input on several topics:

1. Valves - i decided I will go with the full set intake and exhaust. Supertech or Ferrea they roughly come at the same price. If I go +1 mm, do I need to buy bigger valve seats (where from)? I actually wanted to buy Ferrea super alloy valves, but it turns that readily available for 1.8T are only the competition plus type which I am not sure if they have any advantages over the inconnel type of Supertech. Does anybody use Ferrea super alloy???

2. Injectors. Almost everybody using EFR 7163 are using 1000cc - so I am going the same size, I guess. Could not decide Genesis or ID (AEB)? Your 2 cents and why?

3. Mechanical or hydraulic belt tensioner. From what I really read and for my purposes I think that mechanical tensioner has no advantages. I think that if you go with real OEM quality hidraulic tensioner that was installed properly the probability of failure is low and you get all the benefits - constant tension in variable circumstances. In my opinion mechanical tensioner is good for pure race applications where you have more or less constant environment, where you also get your belt checked every 100 miles. Please correct me!

4. Main bearings. Read a lot about them. 6/4 vs. 5/5 grooved/plain shells. In the end I gues it matters which set I need depending if I go 058 (6/4) or 06A (5/5) - or 5/5 works for both? Will probably go with Vandervell or Clevite H series. Any other suggestions?

5. Is there any performance timing belt for 058?

Wanted to share some discussion I had with the guys about the turbo. They all think that T25 is WAY too small for may power goal. I have my theory that all this experience they have with T25 housings is with old style Garrett housings and turbine wheels. I am not sure if the very T25 flange was too small or the orifice at the turbine wheel causes more obstruction, having in mind the laggy inconnel wheel causes even further obstruction. I think that BW made their calculations right and the turbo really is capable of 550 bhp. Never the less I will do it and test the hypothesis. Will let you know.

Thank you for your support!

[GOODBYNAAIR]

Been some time, but this looks promising Have fun with the build.

[zandrew]

I am a big fan of King bearings. Love them.

Glad to see you with the efr. Great turbos loaded with technology designed for indy cars. I'm using a 6758 for my build but the 7163 would be my choice if I did not steal this turbo none that told you a t25 is too small is full for shite. It has NOT HONG to do with the flange but how it flowes. If you look at Garrett gt29 series they use t25 flanges. Consequently the oddball t25 gt3071r-wg turbos have higher turbine flow rates then the standard gt3071r with a t3 housing. I have the gt3071r 90 trim turbine with .86 housing.

What garrett turbo were you running?

[genecan]

What garrett turbo were you running?

A simple GT 2560R

[B5A4coastie]

What tuning are you going with? The tuner should tell you what injectors to use with your turbo.

[genecan]

What tuning are you going with? The tuner should tell you what injectors to use with your turbo.

Well, of course that is a normal way to figure it out. I do not have too many tuner options here and unfortunately it is not so easy to talk to these people too. Of course I will consult before I buy, but also I am drilling here for some of your feedback.

Thanks!

[Avant Nate]

What do you guys have for fuel? I went with id1000s, I asked around and people seem to be real happy about them. Plus e85

[redline380]

I like 06A motors much more. Your list doesnt say which engine management you want to go with, but that would help decide. If you haven't purchased engine management yet, I would build an 06A motor and use 06A ECU too.

[genecan]

What do you guys have for fuel? I went with id1000s, I asked around and people seem to be real happy about them. Plus e85

Well, I plan on using AKI 100 gasoline (or 95 what you call in the US) and may be some octane booster additions. E85 is not easy to find here. Still hessitating if I have to try water/meth injection - may be on later stages...

Can you guys help me with some links may be - trying to find more information on ID spray pattern. It is really hard to decide ID 1000 cc or Genesis Double fogger 1000cc.

[genecan]

I like 06A motors much more. Your list doesnt say which engine management you want to go with, but that would help decide. If you haven't purchased engine management yet, I would build an 06A motor and use 06A ECU too.

What are your points in liking 06A more?

For now I am staying with Motronic ME 7.5. I do not really see the need for stand alone. Also for such a set up I think MAF vs. MAP mapping is probably equally challenging.

[Seerlah]

06a or 058 doesn't matter when it comes to stretching the rpm. Oil pump does not like it. Get an oil pressure gauge for in cabin (sending unit version) and monitor your pressure.

[genecan]

Come on people help me with your feedback, so I can buy the correct remaining parts!

[genecan]

Finally the donor motor:





Few more parts arrived:



and few more on their way.

Have to buy injectors, Turbosmart dualport IWG and upgraded recirculation valve, the rest will be sourced by the shop. Cluch still missing though...

Hopefully head and block work starts this month. Stay tuned.

[thrilos5]

Good job, keep us updated with the build
greetings from Greece

[genecan]

Thanks!

Few more bits in the mail:


Now I am facing the problem with the torque plate, it seems missing in my country...

[genecan]

We are moving on. Few more updates highlighted in red in the first post. And few more items on its way to me.









Next moth we start. On May 16th the donor engine gets into pieces.

[Avant Nate]

I wondering if the t25 is big enough? How about a T4 twin scroll?

[genecan]

I wondering if the t25 is big enough? How about a T4 twin scroll?

T4 TS is not bigger, actually probably even more restrictive in terms of flow capacity (I plan 8000rpm), but also few hundreds rpm better spool. Vband is bigger, higher peak hp, but also laggier. Nothing new in the world of turboing. Actually,I think the T25 is the sweet spot in this spectrum and also I have the best T25 manifold to match.

I had concerns about T25 too, but as zandrew outlined few posts back - the flange size is not the most important thing for a turbine to flow more.

I guess we will see...

[Avant Nate]

Food for thought
t25

t4

[genecan]

Food for thought...

I had my dinner already... It is not that simple as you are trying to present it, it is not just the flange, but the whole housing design.

At the entrance of the housing it is bigger, but close to the turbine wheel the total cross-section of both tracts in TS taper more than in the T25. Why? Because this way it gives higher acceleration of the exhaust gases. Consequently, at a given flow through the head the TS hit the turbine wheel with gases at higher speed. The last combined with the primary purpose of twin-scrolling leads to sooner spool. On the other hand, at higher flows because of the same facts it is self-evident that a TS housing is more restrictive to comparable T25.

Plus: if I remember correctly from laws of fluid dynamics two tracts flow less than one with the same cross-section. This is obviously not the case here, but still even at the entrance of the housing the difference might not be that big, but the law is still in force if you compare cross-section towards the turbine wheel. Physicists, please chime in here...

[spindoctor]

Hi Genadi,


PM inbox full.

[chris164935]

I had my dinner already... It is not that simple as you are trying to present it, it is not just the flange, but the whole housing design.

At the entrance of the housing it is bigger, but close to the turbine wheel the total cross-section of both tracts in TS taper more than in the T25. Why? Because this way it gives higher acceleration of the exhaust gases. Consequently, at a given flow through the head the TS hit the turbine wheel with gases at higher speed. The last combined with the primary purpose of twin-scrolling leads to sooner spool. On the other hand, at higher flows because of the same facts it is self-evident that a TS housing is more restrictive to comparable T25.

Plus: if I remember correctly from laws of fluid dynamics two tracts flow less than one with the same cross-section. This is obviously not the case here, but still even at the entrance of the housing the difference might not be that big, but the law is still in force if you compare cross-section towards the turbine wheel. Physicists, please chime in here...

http://www.superstreetonline.com/how...system-design/
I would not say that your T25 setup is better than a twin-scroll setup. But, I would also not say that your T25 setup is bad either.

[genecan]

Thank to spindoctor, it was confirmed that combination with APR manifold and T25 0.85 EFR 7163 is VERY VERY possible in a B5 platform (although I have been convinced in the opposite many times before), which makes me extremely happy. In such case, there is a great chance I keep the stock airbox too, which I wanted from day one.

When I was doing the thinking over the project I thought I wanted what a man could possibly squeeze the most out of a T25 flanged turbocharged systm on a 1.8T and I think I am around there. If the T25 turns restrictve - then let it be, I have done what I intended. My goals are conservativly ambitious - would be very happy with a 480 BHP (it is funny because I picked this number originating from the first GTR 35s).

IF YOU GUYS HAPPEN TO SEE A T25 FLANGED EFR 7163 BUILD, PLEASE POST A LINK HERE!

So far I have just encountered comments in forums that other people achieving around 400WHP on conservative tunes and one 3rd person report for a 485 whp result on a 2.65L Subi.

Thanks.

[genecan]

After some delay (I am not surprised alredy) today everything started...




"Oh lord of all car projects, let this one be as easy as possible and with no broken or uncompatible parts..."

[genecan]

[genecan]

Has anyone any feedback on pipercam timing belts? They seem to be the only ones that produce racing belts for 058 1.8T.

[genecan]

We received this today



Finally we can procede to the machine shop.

[Dan[FN]6262]

I'm excited to see this build finished, keep up the great work!

[RedDefiance]

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[genecan]

Thanks guys!

Dan, thank you for being my guiding light (with your project) in this quest. Thumbs up for spindoctor for his help so far.

Major delay was coming from bad 2.0L crankshafts I previously bought, after measurements neithter of them seemed good enough. Now I have sourced two more and hopefully this week we can proceed if at least one is good.

In the mean time I decided to ditch the S4 B5 brake set up (probably going into my daily B6 1.9 TDI ) and sourced a S4 B6 set up that we will deal with later on.

[genecan]

Finally:









Piston to wall clearance 0.06mm or 0.0024"




The only downside of the procedure is that I was not able to use this (and yes it was avalable):



Lets say technical issue..., but the problem is that the project is developing in a very "specific" country :)

[Dan[FN]6262]

how long until it's together?!?!?

[genecan]

how long until it's together?!?!?

Hopefully - end of September;

Realistically - end of November.

I do not know why there is this karma for the EFR projects to take more than 2 years.