Cost to build 2.7t vs VR6t

**animportant** · 10-03-2012 08:28 AM

Might be a dumb question.. how big of a difference would this be. Fully built 2.7tt vs fully built vr6t. USP has already proven the potential of the vr6t. I'm guessing the extra costs would be mounts, standalone, transmission.. anything else? Estimates would be lovely. Apologies if the topic has already been covered. Starting to get evil ideas.

**Austonwerner4** · 10-03-2012 08:31 AM

Ask Rob (Bigboost) He told me if his car gets wrecked or stolen, he will be buying a lambo, thats how much money he put into his. But his is much much much nicer than all VR6 projects that I have seen

**s4930** · 10-03-2012 08:32 AM

Ive never really looked into it but I'm guessing a vr6 would be more expensive because of the custom work. I'm sayin this because to me it seems like building a vr6 means making it truly your own and not a "kit" engine.

**034Motorsport** · 10-03-2012 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by animportant

Might be a dumb question.. how big of a difference would this be. Fully built 2.7tt vs fully built vr6t. USP has already proven the potential of the vr6t. I'm guessing the extra costs would be mounts, standalone, transmission.. anything else? Estimates would be lovely. Apologies if the topic has already been covered. Starting to get evil ideas.

Has been covered many times. Find the B5 VR6 thread.

To recap; it's a lot more expensive and you will lose conveniences. Engine Management is a big one, besides all the custom fabbed components.

But the real reason is...why? I say this with experience, as we had a VR6 in our B5 Time Attack race car. The VR6 is a great motor, in fact a 24v VR6-T is basically the best sounding motor in the world, in my opinion, but there's barely any advantages (if any) running a VR6 over a built 2.7T.

2.7T motors can make almost 500whp stock, just like a VR6, but the 2.7T is made for your B5 S4, etc. About the only advantage to a VR6 in a B5 is the turbo location, however, there are more and more custom single turbo 2.7T's out there. And our pre-fabbed kit will be officially released this month. I can change my turbo in 30-45 minutes, motor mounts in 10 minutes, EGT in 5 minutes, etc. VR6 had more aftermarket development, but the 2.7T is finally getting the love it deserves and there is more and more fun stuff going on with it.

Both the VR6 and the 2.7T would need to be built, which would be similar in cost. Except the VR6 needs a standalone system, it needs the tranny adapter, the flywheel, the starter adapter, etc. It also has worse weight distribution then the stock motor and isn't any lighter. A VR6 in a B5 S4 is unique and cool but from a performance stand point, the 2.7T is just a relatively untapped motor in most regards. We are still at the fairly early stages of development on this motor, especially in comparison with most other tuning scenes. GT turbos have only become viable options in the last 2 years.

Unless you yourself are a custom fabricator, or have a best friend, you'll end up spending a lot more to get a motor that offers no advantages and has the same power. If you want 1000whp on E85, it's going to be pretty much the same thing on a 2.7T as a VR6.

**Angular** · 10-03-2012 09:01 AM

Huh? How can you say there's barely any advantages to a 3.2 liter 24V V6 over a 2.7T? Displacement alone is a big advantage and it cost a small fortune to bump a 2.7T up to 3 liters. Plus, seems like the VR6 block is significantly stronger than the 2.7T block. Show me a 800+ whp 2.7T based engine and I'll show you a cracked block.

**animportant** · 10-03-2012 09:02 AM

So highly appreciated. Thanks everyone!!

**NOTORIOUS VR** · 10-03-2012 09:04 AM

Bone stock VR6's are doing 750WHP on E85... a 2.7T will never, ever do that.

I personally tuned a 24V VR6 stock block w/ just a head spacer, it was making 600whp on pump + meth

**034Motorsport** · 10-03-2012 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by Angular

Huh? How can you say there's barely any advantages to a 3.2 liter 24V V6 over a 2.7T? Displacement alone is a big advantage and it cost a small fortune to bump a 2.7T up to 3 liters. Plus, seems like the VR6 block is significantly stronger than the 2.7T block. Show me a 800+ whp 2.7T based engine and I'll show you a cracked block.

2.7T has been a bolt on turbo affair motor up until the last few years, there's been virtually no development prior to that in terms of big power motors. As I said, last couple years are the first times most of us have ever even seen more than a couple 2.7T's pushing over 700whp. That doesn't mean it isn't possible, but it takes development and the Audi S4 aftermarket scene is miniscule in comparison to VW.

However, I know VR6's have this reputation for putting down big power stock with just compression dropping head gaskets; have you also seen how many have blown up, cause I sure have. How often there are problems running these motors at those power levels or any extended period of time? There are Evo's putting down crazy power stock; they last about 10-20k miles at that boost. Are you saying that a stock 2.7T can't be pushed past 500whp with pump and meth and appropriate turbo? Why do you know that, did you blow your motor trying? How many stock 2.7T motors have you seen with compression dropping headgaskets that were destroyed from +500whp? VR6's have been pushed for a lot longer, much bigger aftermarket scene, etc. Audi's have been premium vehicles. With proper tuning, there's no reason a 2.7T can handle more power than what we consider safe, limited by rpm and the boost onset. Heck, with 91 octane we don't like pushing a stock 2.7T much past 450whp, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible by any means. We like to play it safe; if someone wants to string out a stock motor, more power to them, but I don't think it is 100% fair to compare a motor that has only recently seen serious aftermarket love to something that has been a VW tuning staple for years and years.

If there were no disadvantages to running a VR6 versus a 2.7T, would I run a VR6? Of course, my next car will be an A3 VR6-T. But the guy asked about the difference between swapping one in versus building a 2.7T, and I'm sorry but unless you are a fabricator, there's no way it is worth spending all that extra time and money just to have a motor that CAN hold 100whp more power.

Is 100whp difference worth the huge amount of custom fabrication necessary compared to building the motor with some rods and strapping 770's on?

**Angular** · 10-03-2012 10:21 AM

What are you talking about? First you say this...

Originally Posted by Max@034

The VR6 is a great motor, in fact a 24v VR6-T is basically the best sounding motor in the world, in my opinion, but there's barely any advantages (if any) running a VR6 over a built 2.7T.

then this:

Originally Posted by Max@034

If there were no disadvantages to running a VR6 versus a 2.7T, would I run a VR6?

Who are you arguing with, yourself? Did I say there were "no disavantages" to running a VR6 in a B5?

Originally Posted by Max@034

Are you saying that a stock 2.7T can't be pushed past 500whp with pump and meth and appropriate turbo?

I believe I said 800+ whp, not 500 but thanks for distorting what I said.

**animportant** · 10-03-2012 10:39 AM

So to sum up this thread.. Max understands that I'm an average consumer and it would be an absolutely ridiculous proposition to swap a vr6t into my audi to try and get 100 extra whp when i should rebuild my engine with rods and throw a set of duals or do a single conversion, be happy with 500 whp and stop trying to be a spoiled asshole with a 9 second luxury vehicle. Angular understands the little kid side of me that wants to have a crazy fast b5 s4 and that a vr6t might make the extra power more possible, which I'd probably find some way to blow up eventually, anyway. Maybe we are taking the frustrations we have against our b5 s4s on fellow b5 owners? hahaha

**animportant** · 10-03-2012 10:41 AM

And Max I think the a3 vr6-t would be such a kick ass car.. that 10 second 0-400 blue s3 turbo from Greece was so bad ass.. any differences in that motor used?

**epyx** · 10-03-2012 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by animportant

So to sum up this thread.. Max understands that I'm an average consumer and it would be an absolutely ridiculous proposition to swap a vr6t into my audi to try and get 100 extra whp when i should rebuild my engine with rods and throw a set of duals or do a single conversion, be happy with 500 whp and stop trying to be a spoiled asshole with a 9 second luxury vehicle. Angular understands the little kid side of me that wants to have a crazy fast b5 s4 and that a vr6t might make the extra power more possible, which I'd probably find some way to blow up eventually, anyway. Maybe we are taking the frustrations we have against our b5 s4s on fellow b5 owners? hahaha

You summed it up pretty well. Max always seems to make valid points, even if not everyone agrees. Both are great motors with a lot to offer; however unless you have your own shop or enough money to blow, stick with the 2.7t. Unless you're looking for a straight line car stick with the 2.7 and even then it's no slouch thanks to all the tuners that have stuck with the platform. If you wanted to go fast in a straight line there are much better options out there car wise.

**shorterthanrich** · 10-03-2012 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by animportant

So to sum up this thread.. Max understands that I'm an average consumer and it would be an absolutely ridiculous proposition to swap a vr6t into my audi to try and get 100 extra whp when i should rebuild my engine with rods and throw a set of duals or do a single conversion, be happy with 500 whp and stop trying to be a spoiled asshole with a 9 second luxury vehicle. Angular understands the little kid side of me that wants to have a crazy fast b5 s4 and that a vr6t might make the extra power more possible, which I'd probably find some way to blow up eventually, anyway. Maybe we are taking the frustrations we have against our b5 s4s on fellow b5 owners? hahaha

Meta as fuck.

Well stated...

**rockcandy** · 10-03-2012 11:17 AM

If my 2.8 doesnt put down 700whp to the wheels by christmas, im burning it down. Cost to reach that point is going to be equal or close enough imho. I have a vr6 in my garage that I passed up on building because I just want an audi powered car. Im building it all myself but I stopped counting $ about $13k into it. I didnt start with a stock car either.

**animportant** · 10-03-2012 02:04 PM

When i was 19 years old I watched a stage 3 S4 video, figured one day I would buy an S4 with an exhaust and tune, buy 2 ko4's, inlets, a fmic, and some supporting hardware, and drive the car for the rest of my life. There's something beautiful about youthful ignorance.

**Zero Tolerance** · 10-03-2012 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by animportant

When i was 19 years old I watched a stage 3 S4 video, figured one day I would buy an S4 with an exhaust and tune, buy 2 ko4's, inlets, a fmic, and some supporting hardware, and drive the car for the rest of my life. There's something beautiful about youthful ignorance.

LIKE :p

**aysix** · 10-03-2012 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by Zero Tolerance

LIKE :p

When i was 19 i wanted a stage 3 s4. Now i'm 20 and have two A6's and a S4 which is going to be either parted out or built.

I would have had a hefty down payment for a condo right now otherwise.

:P

**hellrot98m3** · 10-03-2012 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by animportant

When i was 19 years old I watched a stage 3 S4 video, figured one day I would buy an S4 with an exhaust and tune, buy 2 ko4's, inlets, a fmic, and some supporting hardware, and drive the car for the rest of my life. There's something beautiful about youthful ignorance.

lol yea i wanted to keep mine stock to have a reliable car while i built my e36. they both spiraled out of control haha

**Zero Tolerance** · 10-03-2012 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by aysix

When i was 19 i wanted a stage 3 s4. Now i'm 20 and have two A6's and a S4 which is going to be either parted out or built.

I would have had a hefty down payment for a condo right now otherwise.

:P

Damn. I had CRAP when I was 20. :p Good for you...

**Peter1.8t** · 10-03-2012 02:49 PM

When I was 19 I wanted a stage 3 S4. I'm 21 and now have one

**Peter1.8t** · 10-03-2012 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by rockcandy

If my 2.8 doesnt put down 700whp to the wheels by christmas, im burning it down. Cost to reach that point is going to be equal or close enough imho. I have a vr6 in my garage that I passed up on building because I just want an audi powered car. Im building it all myself but I stopped counting $ about $13k into it. I didnt start with a stock car either.

Can't wait to see how your project turns out.

**s4930** · 10-03-2012 03:28 PM

when i was 19 i had a stage 3 longboard... go ahead hate on it

**034Motorsport** · 10-03-2012 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by animportant

So to sum up this thread.. Max understands that I'm an average consumer and it would be an absolutely ridiculous proposition to swap a vr6t into my audi to try and get 100 extra whp when i should rebuild my engine with rods and throw a set of duals or do a single conversion, be happy with 500 whp and stop trying to be a spoiled asshole with a 9 second luxury vehicle. Angular understands the little kid side of me that wants to have a crazy fast b5 s4 and that a vr6t might make the extra power more possible, which I'd probably find some way to blow up eventually, anyway. Maybe we are taking the frustrations we have against our b5 s4s on fellow b5 owners? hahaha

That was my main point; that it is not viable unless you are going for something ridiculous. And I stand by my statement that even if you are going for something ridiculous, it will likely be easier, cheaper, and almost as fast with a built to the hilt 2.7T.

Angular, I think first off you misunderstood what I was saying about disadvantages. I am specifically talking about advantages and disadvantages of a VR6 motor IN A B5 CHASSIS. If there were no disadvantages to running a VR6 in a B5 (and there are many disadvantages, such as weight distribution, engine management, exhaust components, A/C, cruise control, etc), then I would run a 24v VR6 in my B5. I love the VR6, especially the 3.2L; it's a great motor, there's a lot of aftermarket, and it sounds totally bad ass. But besides the VR6's ability to hold some extra power stock, there are no obvious and apparent advantages over the 2.7T beyond an extra 0.2L of displacement (which once again, is not worth the huge inconvenience of the VR6 in a B5). I'm promoting the idea that 100-200whp more on a stock motor is NOT worth the thousands of dollars and hours of extra work to get to where the OP wants to get. Even if he was 100% set on building a 9 second car, I would still recommend the 2.7T and tell you that there simply hasn't been enough development.

A 3.0L APB motor has no trouble pushing 800-900whp when built correctly. You said you would show me a cracked block for any 2.7T over 800whp. I'll say that I have a +900whp 2.7T 30 feet away from me right now. Only reason we didn't push it more is because we need a chassis dyno; too much tire spin at +850whp.

In the end, once again, my primary point is to illustrate that building a motor is easy and you can pay someone to do it and you know what it will cost, etc. Paying someone to install your VR6 motor into your B5, is a whole different head ache and in the end, said and done, dollar to dollar, I would venture as far as to say a stock VR6 in a B5 would be much more expensive than a fully built 3.0L. Unless you want something different, I still will say that a VR6 is not ideal or efficient in a B5 from start to finish cost to performance.

Also, while I'm well aware of the "capability" of a stock VR6 motor, but let's make sure we don't confuse reliability with capability. Please also take into consideration that I think differently then a lot of people on the forum, and I illustrated that with the fact that we do not even like to tune a stock 2.7T motor beyond 450whp (even if it can go more). We are safe, extra safe, and not too interested in taking the risk of blowing up a customers motor. Our Stage 3 K04 tune even illustrates that; we run 20psi, low timing, etc. There is no reason to skate the limits when you can make a small sacrifice in performance and enhance reliability exponentially. Show me an 800whp stock VR6 motor that runs 800whp everyday at the track? For every example you can produce, it is likely I can produce 10x more examples of VR6 engines that have blown up with turbos.

If the VR6 really was the wonder engine you make it out to be, I don't think I would be personally selling so many VR6 build parts. There is capability, and then there is reliability and safety. Motor to motor, a 3.2L 24 VR6 is a better motor than the 2.7T V6. But, in a B5, it changes everything. A simple check of past records of all the past people who have purchased VR6 conversion parts from us shows me that a large majority of them also purchased, at a minimum, rods and pistons.

I'm not trying to offend you Angular; I'm trying to give the OP a realistic idea of what is involved and what the advantages or disadvantages are of going VR6 in a B5 chassis. I'm sorry if I made it out to seem like the VR6 is only marginally better then a 2.7T. Considering we are the ONLY company who makes all the parts for a VR6 swap, this isn't something I am against by any means. But for all intensive purposes in this thread, I stand by my main points and I do not feel 800whp on a stock motor is example that has been repeated many times and shown to be as reliable as a stock S4 motor under 500whp.

/ultra mega rant over

**SEXICÄN** · 10-03-2012 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by Peter1.8t

When I was 19 I wanted a stage 3 S4. I'm 21 and now have one

I call bullshit! I bet my stage 1 S4 will rape on your "stage 3" S4....

**Peter1.8t** · 10-03-2012 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by SEXICÄN

I call bullshit! I bet my stage 1 S4 will rape on your "stage 3" S4....

***! Only a couple more pieces of the puzzle to go.

**Angular** · 10-03-2012 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by Max@034

A 3.0L APB motor has no trouble pushing 800-900whp when built correctly. You said you would show me a cracked block for any 2.7T over 800whp. I'll say that I have a +900whp 2.7T 30 feet away from me right now. Only reason we didn't push it more is because we need a chassis dyno; too much tire spin at +850whp.

So how much torque were you guys making with that 2WD wonder?

It's really not the "horsepower" that breaks things after all. It's the torque. A couple of high HP pulls on a 2 wheel drive dyno just isn't the same as real abuse on an AWD platform, is it?

>

**Angular** · 10-03-2012 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by Max@034

I'm not trying to offend you Angular; I'm trying to give the OP a realistic idea of what is involved and what the advantages or disadvantages are of going VR6 in a B5 chassis. I'm sorry if I made it out to seem like the VR6 is only marginally better then a 2.7T. Considering we are the ONLY company who makes all the parts for a VR6 swap, this isn't something I am against by any means. But for all intensive purposes in this thread, I stand by my main points and I do not feel 800whp on a stock motor is example that has been repeated many times and shown to be as reliable as a stock S4 motor under 500whp.

Apology accepted.

Seriously, though, I wasn't recommending to the OP that he jumps on the VR6T bandwagon. But somewhere North of 600 wtq things get dicey with the 2.7T block, and a full 3.2 liters of displacement sure is attractive, as is only needing ONE of everything instead of TWO of everything. Ultimately it's about choosing the right tool for the job, or alternatively having the money to burn if you just wanna be "different".

**bigern45** · 10-03-2012 04:50 PM

the VR6 exhaust note is worth $3000 in my book..

**rockcandy** · 10-03-2012 05:19 PM

Max,

I would like to thank you for my bad ass standalone and wiring harness. I do enough "custom" harnesses in the shop to say yours is one of the nicest around!

**rockcandy** · 10-03-2012 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by Peter1.8t

Can't wait to see how your project turns out.

Thanks! Me too. Ill eventually do a build thread, but I have nearly 0 free time.

**martin0079** · 10-03-2012 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by bigern45

the VR6 exhaust note is worth $3000 in my book..

It seems like I am the only one that thinks the 2.7tt sounds way better than the VR6 or maybe it is just my hatred of VW as I feel they are kind of the honda of Euro cars. I know most will say but Audi is just an expensive VW, but having been in both cars I can say that I do not feel that way about Audi.

Also Max any details on the 900whp 2.7t? Is that your single turbo car or something else?

**bigern45** · 10-03-2012 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by martin0079

It seems like I am the only one that thinks the 2.7tt sounds way better than the VR6 or maybe it is just my hatred of VW as I feel they are kind of the honda of Euro cars. I know most will say but Audi is just an expensive VW, but having been in both cars I can say that I do not feel that way about Audi.

Also Max any details on the 900whp 2.7t? Is that your single turbo car or something else?

i loved my exhaust note when i was stage 3 and single 3".. sounded amazing at WOT.. now that im 4", doesnt sound as clean...
still, i think the VR6 has an exhaust note that cannot be touched.. maybe it is your biased opinion.. lol..

**aysix** · 10-03-2012 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by martin0079

It seems like I am the only one that thinks the 2.7tt sounds way better than the VR6 or maybe it is just my hatred of VW
Also Max any details on the 900whp 2.7t? Is that your single turbo car or something else?

R32's are sweet.

**Matador** · 10-04-2012 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by aysix

R32's are sweet.

Agreed.

There's already a very decent A3 VR6T running around, and I know him personally. His was an unfortunate circumstance where he was without his car for 2+ years (yes, years) because of "Tuning" issues. Once he switched tuners, issue resolved.

The difference between the products of course is the drivetrain. DSG gearbox and Haldex AWD vs. 6MT and Torsen AWD. The extra displacement possible of using an R32 engine and bumping it up to 3.3L seems appealing, but when you factor in all the other "custom" stuff that has to be done you start slamming into that diminishing returns wall pretty quick.

Say I gave you two S4s and $30k per car to mod them, and your goal was to get them to 900HP; you would use significantly less money for the 2.7(3.0) car than you would for the VR6 mainly due to the fact the parts for the 2.7 car are already native to the platform. And from what I'm reading, $30k might not be enough for the VR6

You can do anything with the right amount of money, but ultimately you have to ask what your ultimate purpose is. 9000HP S4 VR6T that's reliable enough to lend to your girlfriend and not leave her stranded? Let's say $50k (honestly, probably higher). OK, well instead you could buy a used Ferrari:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/8tv2lqg
Or for even less, you could buy this "shitbox"

of a Porsche:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/9k7lpwj

You trying to drop panties? Trying to have the ultimate stoplight racer? Status symbol? Just an all around fast car? What I'm learning is Single turbo 2.7/3.0 is enough, and if I'm looking for more then I need a different car.

**AudiA4_20T** · 10-04-2012 05:10 AM

Max is wrong you don't need to lose OEM engine management. I'm 100% sure I can make that ECU work flawlessly in a B5, which means you would pass emissions and everything.

However, it's still MUCH more $$$

**NOTORIOUS VR** · 10-04-2012 06:06 AM

Originally Posted by martin0079

It seems like I am the only one that thinks the 2.7tt sounds way better than the VR6 or maybe it is just my hatred of VW as I feel they are kind of the honda of Euro cars. I know most will say but Audi is just an expensive VW, but having been in both cars I can say that I do not feel that way about Audi.

Also Max any details on the 900whp 2.7t? Is that your single turbo car or something else?

If you just compare the engines, the VR6 is a powerhouse compared the APB. It's strange because it has an awful head design, but the entire package is just so solid it makes up for it. Besides that you have many different version to choose from and displacement options from 2.8 to 3.6L.

As far as I know there is only one 2.7T that is in the 900 hp range, and that is still the silver drag car from Poland

**rockcandy** · 10-04-2012 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by NOTORIOUS VR

If you just compare the engines, the VR6 is a powerhouse compared the APB. It's strange because it has an awful head design, but the entire package is just so solid it makes up for it. Besides that you have many different version to choose from and displacement options from 2.8 to 3.6L.

As far as I know there is only one 2.7T that is in the 900 hp range, and that is still the silver drag car from Poland

I am pretty certain all of his # s are quoted in crank hp. He is just the only one (currently) who has gutted a wagon enough to pull the good track # s.

**NOTORIOUS VR** · 10-04-2012 11:38 AM

regardless mid 900 flywheel HP is still what he's making which is more then anyone else to date that I can recall, and is still the fastest. So he has dyno numbers to back it up and track times/slips

http://sss.home.pl/oz/wykres11072007.pdf

**Scotty@Advanced** · 10-04-2012 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Angular

Show me a 800+ whp 2.7T based engine and I'll show you a cracked block.

Its does happen it does not mean it Will happen.

Here's some interesting reading about it.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...=1#post7986816

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ho-has-seen-it

**1NaudiA4** · 10-04-2012 12:55 PM

What it comes down to is that if you can fabricate your own stuff/do your own work building a VR6 in a B5 will be comparable price wise to building a 2.7. Some things will be more expensive building a VR6 vs building a 2.7 and some things will be more expensive building the 2.7.

On the 2.7 the cost of the turbo set-up is going to be more vs the VR6. However the cost of tuning is going to be more on the VR6 due to requiring a standalone. Both set-ups are going to require a built motor however building a VR6 should be slightly less expensive than building a 2.7. You get the point....

You will definitely experience way more headaches building a VR6 in a B5 though simply because you have to make so much stuff work that simply wasn't meant for the B5.

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