APR stage 2 problems.

[Skywagon]

Man, I have no idea how far out that is, since...you know...two weeks. LOL. Sorry Arin! :)

All theory? I was told next year. Recently told BY the end of this year?

[audistealth]

All theory? I was told next year. Recently told BY the end of this year?

See the APR Stage 3 thread. Running joke.

[AndyUK]

A DSG tune is essential on a stage 2 as the stock tune limits the available power further up the revs by changing up too early. The stock DSG tune obviously works in conjunction with the stock engine tune where the power falls off quickly after 5.5k revs so it makes no sense to change just before redline. A DSG tune will liberate the available power made from an engine tune.

I will put my neck on the line and state that the 2014 B8.5 tunes have been released to early and that suggesting the cars are at fault is a red herring.

Back in the early days of S4 B8 tuning the stage 1 tunes were hit and miss with many suppliers subsequently issuing a V2 of their tune free of charge. One of the main functions of the ECU is to protect the engine and transmission from excess torque/power and it uses a variety of parameters to make such calculations. This wasn’t fully understood in the initial B8 tunes.

If the ECU does calculate an excess boost/power/torque/lean condition is will do what it can to reduce the perceived danger. This can include bleeding boost and altering fuelling but we know from our own testing that timing pull is the main mechanism used. You’ll be surprised how much of a difference 6-7 degrees timing pull feels across the cylinders. It will feel gutless.

I believe the new 2014 B8.5 tunes are experiencing similar problems to the original B8 tunes. I am not sure if this issue is limited to stage 2 or applies to both stage 1 and stage 2 files.

[Hansel]

^^^ maybe this is the issue on my b8?

[jred55]

My brother had a similar issue. In his opinion he thinks there was something wrong with the car and not the tune. But after he got APR stage II, his car and my car (stock) were dead even through 2 gears. At times you could feel the tune working and it was a rocket, but most of the time it felt stock. After a month of problems he went back to stock and got a refund.

[Hansel]

My brother had a similar issue. In his opinion he thinks there was something wrong with the car and not the tune. But after he got APR stage II, his car and my car (stock) were dead even through 2 gears. At times you could feel the tune working and it was a rocket, but most of the time it felt stock. After a month of problems he went back to stock and got a refund.

Did he have any error codes or a check engine light?

[SwankPeRFection]

A DSG tune is essential on a stage 2 as the stock tune limits the available power further up the revs by changing up too early. The stock DSG tune obviously works in conjunction with the stock engine tune where the power falls off quickly after 5.5k revs so it makes no sense to change just before redline. A DSG tune will liberate the available power made from an engine tune.

I will put my neck on the line and state that the 2014 B8.5 tunes have been released to early and that suggesting the cars are at fault is a red herring.

Back in the early days of S4 B8 tuning the stage 1 tunes were hit and miss with many suppliers subsequently issuing a V2 of their tune free of charge. One of the main functions of the ECU is to protect the engine and transmission from excess torque/power and it uses a variety of parameters to make such calculations. This wasn’t fully understood in the initial B8 tunes.

If the ECU does calculate an excess boost/power/torque/lean condition is will do what it can to reduce the perceived danger. This can include bleeding boost and altering fuelling but we know from our own testing that timing pull is the main mechanism used. You’ll be surprised how much of a difference 6-7 degrees timing pull feels across the cylinders. It will feel gutless.

I believe the new 2014 B8.5 tunes are experiencing similar problems to the original B8 tunes. I am not sure if this issue is limited to stage 2 or applies to both stage 1 and stage 2 files.

Your logic is sound on this. I think we all know that when the '14 cars came out, I'd bet the tuning companies pretty much tried to flash the ECU via OBD port to see if it would work. It did and the flash seemed to take. That pretty much meant, it's the same as '13 cars to them, so they went with it. I seriously doubt that they have the same amount of '14 cars running around during development to make sure it all worked and kept working. Maybe we'll get lucky and Arin will find something and let us know what he found, but considering he didn't say much after he fixed the cold start EPC errors some were having a few months ago (again, it was an issue where some cars had it and some didn't, which is totally strange to me because all ECUs regardless of revision within the same model year should behave the same way unless it was environmental/geographical issues causing it). The only other variable here would be if Audi is just putting specific ECUs in some vehicles as a new testbed within actual production vehicles for research purposes and it's these small number of ECUs that are acting up and the people that end up with them just happen to be the unlucky ones since there's no way to tell which car has it when you order or purchase one.


There was also that other thread a long time ago (few months) where the guy kept getting Fuel Pressure CELs all the time after flashing and they couldn't figure it out. I can't remember if he just gave up and didn't tune or if he went with someone else and it's been fine. It might have been one of those "swept under the rug" issues, similar to the other thread where the one guy went and got a GIAC DSG tune and then had grinding gears and problems. That one died quickly too and no further mention happened. It's like if there's an issue the black helicopters come in and you never hear anything about it again. I don't think that's right.

[audistealth]

An ECU diagnostic test could be beneficial. Something to verify it is physically working to spec (eliminate hardware as an issue).

[Skywagon]

Does this mean headers really do work?

[audistealth]

Does this mean headers really do work?

Nah, 14's don't work :D

[Ynnekdude]

Hansel, forgive me if you stated this before but what intake were you running when you were on the Stasis tune?

[Hansel]

Hansel, forgive me if you stated this before but what intake were you running when you were on the Stasis tune?

Stock intake & stock exhaust.

[Ynnekdude]

Curious if the intake is holding you back now that you're stage 2. One of the guys over on AR just went to the strip with APR S2 and ran 13.3@104 with a 2000+ DA. He then removed the stock intake snorkels and ran 12.69@111 with a mediocre 60'.

[westwest888]

A B8 is not a B8 is not the same as another B8. There is a lot more variance in the last 5 years of S4 production than we know. The line is continually changing things. Safest bet is a 2010 car with as little complications as possible, meaning get the 6MT. That's what the tuners did dev on.
Sent from my Nokia 1520 using Tapatalk

[Hansel]

Curious if the intake is holding you back now that you're stage 2. One of the guys over on AR just went to the strip with APR S2 and ran 13.3@104 with a 2000+ DA. He then removed the stock intake snorkels and ran 12.69@111 with a mediocre 60'.

No shit. Would have never thought that

[Hansel]

No shit. Would have never thought that

I think I read that wrong. He went 13.3 with the apr intake and then took it off and went 12.69 or is it the other way around

[audistealth]

Curious if the intake is holding you back now that you're stage 2. One of the guys over on AR just went to the strip with APR S2 and ran 13.3@104 with a 2000+ DA. He then removed the stock intake snorkels and ran 12.69@111 with a mediocre 60'.

Good point. The factory intake system did appear restrictive when I removed mine.

[saxon]

I think I read that wrong. He went 13.3 with the apr intake and then took it off and went 12.69 or is it the other way around

The other way around. The stock intake box is restrictive with stage 2

[Ynnekdude]

I think I read that wrong. He went 13.3 with the apr intake and then took it off and went 12.69 or is it the other way around

He has the stock airbox with APR backpipe and AWE filter. He removed the snorkels and realized a massive improvement. I know it may seem like a stretch but you may benefit from a Roc-Euro or comparable open element intake.

[Hansel]

He has the stock airbox with APR backpipe and AWE filter. He removed the snorkels and realized a massive improvement. I know it may seem like a stretch but you may benefit from a Roc-Euro or comparable open element intake.

My car just with a "stasis" flash went 12.94 & 12.79 ( I have the time slips and I did email them to Arin too)

Then added Apr exhaust, apr intake 1&2, stage 2 flash & pulley it then went 13.3 & 13.4

[jran76]

No shit. Would have never thought that

That would be me. I ran 4-5 passes with the snorkel and could not break 13.3@105 MPH. Every pass without it (when the car did not hang) was between 12.69-12.9 @ 110-111.5. I saw an instant jump. My times were so awful, I was pretty desperate to try whatever I could, and we knew from my previous logging that the intake was holding me back. After Arin mentioned the collapsing snorkel I decided to just pull it off when my times were not getting any better.

I just got done going through the logs from last night, and everything else stayed about the same in regards to timing and such. My car is not running great, but it ran a lot better without the snorkel (and breathing in hot engine air at that point). I'm pretty convinced that once I get a full open intake on, it will run even better after seeing my logs from last night.

The really high DA's and intake are the two most obvious things holding me back. The [email protected] was still in 2400-2500 DA's. I really think with better DA's, and the new intake (I have a CTS sitting here) I can knock another .3-.4 seconds off, and add a few MPH. I will add that this was done running race gas so still not great times, but I have a pretty good idea as to what is going on based on last night's logging.

[jran76]

My car just with a "stasis" flash went 12.94 & 12.79 ( I have the time slips and I did email them to Arin too)

Then added Apr exhaust, apr intake 1&2, stage 2 flash & pulley it then went 13.3 & 13.4

The best advice I got was to ditch the APR intake/stock box, and go with something open with a heat shield. From talking to the right people, the general consensus is that it's pretty well proven that you need something open to run fast times once you get to stage 2. The stock air box is a major restriction, and I can see that in my logs (not a problem specific to APR as theirs is a slight improvement over the stock box, but not on the same level as an open one). Go with Roc-Euro, USP, or CTS (if they can get they're stuff together- I still can't install mine because they have not provided the correct mounting hardware)

[jran76]

He has the stock airbox with APR backpipe and AWE filter. He removed the snorkels and realized a massive improvement. I know it may seem like a stretch but you may benefit from a Roc-Euro or comparable open element intake.

This is correct. I did not change the intake or pipe. Just removed the rubber snorkel that feeds the intake.

I can see from my logs that I am still not getting the Air Mass I really need to to go faster. This indicates the stock box is holding me back further.

[Ray Khan]

I assume that if your stock snorkel is collapsing under load then mass air values will reveal this in logs.

[jran76]

I assume that if your stock snorkel is collapsing under load then mass air values will reveal this in logs.

Correct. It definitely was not fully collapsing, but I think it was some. Air mass went up noticeably. I don't have the logs in front of me, so I don't know the exact values. DA's got a little better, and the car probably adapted better to the race gas (I was running 93 with Torco Accelerator mixed to what should have been 101-102 octane so it was not a huge change, and logs don't show a big change in timing).

[PSUGOLD]

The best advice I got was to ditch the APR intake/stock box, and go with something open with a heat shield. From talking to the right people, the general consensus is that it's pretty well proven that you need something open to run fast times once you get to stage 2. The stock air box is a major restriction, and I can see that in my logs (not a problem specific to APR as theirs is a slight improvement over the stock box, but not on the same level as an open one). Go with Roc-Euro, USP, or CTS (if they can get they're stuff together- I still can't install mine because they have not provided the correct mounting hardware)

But would stage 2 still run the same 1/4 mile as a stock S4 without changing the intake? I would think adding an intake would surely help make the Stage 2 upgrade run even faster, but it shouldn't be NEEDED for the car to run quite a bit faster with just the Stage 2 tune. If you can run a stock S4 13.5 @105 or so, would just doing the stage 2 tune/pulley really have ZERO effect on the times without also changing the intake? I am at 13.6 now with GIAC Stage 2, stock intake. I am getting a Roc Euro in a few weeks, but nothing yet.

[SwankPeRFection]

This is correct. I did not change the intake or pipe. Just removed the rubber snorkel that feeds the intake.

I can see from my logs that I am still not getting the Air Mass I really need to to go faster. This indicates the stock box is holding me back further.

Are you talking about the front grille pickup that feeds the stock intake box? If so, I wonder how it would have done if you had removed just the small insect screen that's in that scoop. The mesh in that is super fine, but I don't see how it wouldn't introduce a restriction.

[Skywagon]

Are you talking about the front grille pickup that feeds the stock intake box? If so, I wonder how it would have done if you had removed just the small insect screen that's in that scoop. The mesh in that is super fine, but I don't see how it wouldn't introduce a restriction.

It is removable, don't know how. They call it a "snow screen". Go Roc Euro! Simple, has a heat shield, low cost and light weight. Cleanable filter!

[audistealth]

Are you talking about the front grille pickup that feeds the stock intake box? If so, I wonder how it would have done if you had removed just the small insect screen that's in that scoop. The mesh in that is super fine, but I don't see how it wouldn't introduce a restriction.

Hmm, I still have those bits in place, albeit in front of a RocEuro. Worth removing? My gut says no.

[SDB666]

They were working on the DQ250 dsg first before ours and I'm imagining they are going to offer the same benefits:

http://www.goapr.com/products/tcu_up...0_exx_fxx.html

If APR is going to promise that I will wait it out for them, much nicer features than GIAC.

But, seems like the timeline keeps getting extended.

[F40LM]

If APR is going to promise that I will wait it out for them, much nicer features than GIAC.

But, seems like the timeline keeps getting extended.

Nice features but not entirely necessary. I'm wondering if GIAC will make a revision offering the features that has at some point.

[SDB666]

Nice features but not entirely necessary. I'm wondering if GIAC will make a revision offering the features that has at some point.

That'd be nice, but I probably wouldn't go much past the defaults to be honest.

If GIAC weren't a 6hr drive my mind would be made up. I wish APR could pull it together and take my damn money, haha.

[F40LM]

That'd be nice, but I probably wouldn't go much past the defaults to be honest.

If GIAC weren't a 6hr drive my mind would be made up. I wish APR could pull it together and take my damn money, haha.

Yeah that's brutal. I think that's a big part of the decision though. How far is the supporting shops haha. Giac is closer for me than apr by a long shot. The other contrbuting factors were giac has map switching for b8.5 and Apr only does only a single program and the dsg tune.

[SwankPeRFection]

It is removable, don't know how. They call it a "snow screen". Go Roc Euro! Simple, has a heat shield, low cost and light weight. Cleanable filter!

Yes, it is removable. Open the hood and on that black cover that covers the radiator support to the front grille you will see like 4 screws or something like that. Take those out and left the cover. You will see the small screen inserted into the snorkel. Just take it off and put the big black cover back on. Super simple. I think I might pull mine off tonight.

[SwankPeRFection]

Hmm, I still have those bits in place, albeit in front of a RocEuro. Worth removing? My gut says no.

Not in your case. Your filter element pulls air from under the hood and it's open, so no restriction from those pieces now.

[SDB666]

Yeah that's brutal. I think that's a big part of the decision though. How far is the supporting shops haha. Giac is closer for me than apr by a long shot. The other contrbuting factors were giac has map switching for b8.5 and Apr only does only a single program and the dsg tune.

That's really the thing, if I go in for routine maintenance I'd like the nearby support to get me back to stock.

This has me thinking....how do you become a GIAC dealer anyway?

[F40LM]

That's really the thing, if I go in for routine maintenance I'd like the nearby support to get me back to stock.

This has me thinking....how do you become a GIAC dealer anyway?

You probably just need a shop and maybe out of a certain radius of other dealers.

[jran76]

But would stage 2 still run the same 1/4 mile as a stock S4 without changing the intake? I would think adding an intake would surely help make the Stage 2 upgrade run even faster, but it shouldn't be NEEDED for the car to run quite a bit faster with just the Stage 2 tune. If you can run a stock S4 13.5 @105 or so, would just doing the stage 2 tune/pulley really have ZERO effect on the times without also changing the intake? I am at 13.6 now with GIAC Stage 2, stock intake. I am getting a Roc Euro in a few weeks, but nothing yet.

Should not be required. I guess my point is.... On a 2010-2013, if you are running slow times, there is likely a myriad of factors that is/could cause slower times. Everything we have covered here: bad gas, intake, high temps/DA, no CPS, maybe a problem with the tune, etc. It's not as simple as people want it to be in most cases. On 2014 cars, all bets are off until we see them consistently putting up the expected times. The 2010-2013 model's tuning is pretty well proven, but the same cannot be said for the 2014 yet.

I feel like I have pretty much ruled out the APR tune as the culprit to my slow times, but I'll reserve final judgement until the weather cools down and I get my new intake on. I'll be very curious to see what Hansel finds. The one interesting thing is that we were tuned within a few days of each other.

On 93, my times are still in the 13.3@106 range. My car is pretty consistently showing a lot of timing pull up to 6-8 degrees and lower boost (14-14.5 PSI) no matter what gas/map I run, and I can't really say what exactly is causing those two things. Absolute timing is where it should be for both my 93/100 logging, as is requested boost, and the bypass valve is always shut at WOT. This at least means the APR tune is there, and doing most of what it should. I know it's not the gas at this point, so the question is what is causing the higher than normal timing pull and lower boost. Elevation? High temps/DA? Intake? Tune?

The below linked thread is the best resource for what your logs should look like in the summer. Albeit in the NE where temps/DA are lower than here right now. I am pretty much spot on with the APR stage 2 runs in that thread with the exception of boost and timing pull. Tsivas's threads are the best resource for determining what your logs "should" look like. I've learned a lot from his threads.
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...R+GIAC+logging

Are you talking about the front grille pickup that feeds the stock intake box? If so, I wonder how it would have done if you had removed just the small insect screen that's in that scoop. The mesh in that is super fine, but I don't see how it wouldn't introduce a restriction.

Just the rubber snorkel that connects directly to the stock air box. That is the only thing that could really collapse down at all.

[jran76]

One other thing I'll add for a point of reference is I have had several races against 2013+ Mustang GT's (5.0), and won every single one. All but one pretty easily. That's the most common car out there, so I have gone against 5-6 of those on both 93 and 100. Those are sub-13 second cars in most cases, and several have been modified (intakes, exhaust, no cats, drag radials), and I am still taking them. The fact is, Texas Motorplex is not the fastest track at this time of year. The temp last night did not get below 84 degrees, humidity was 40-55%, and the track is at 600 feet or so. No one is putting down record setting times there right now.... E92 M3 with DCT and drag radials was doing high 12's last night (not sure on other mods).

[Skywagon]

That'd be nice, but I probably wouldn't go much past the defaults to be honest.

If GIAC weren't a 6hr drive my mind would be made up. I wish APR could pull it together and take my damn money, haha.

In another recent thread someone chimed in and said they had a GIAC tuner under training in NC. Not seen a word since?