APR stage 2 problems.

[SwankPeRFection]

Just the rubber snorkel that connects directly to the stock air box. That is the only thing that could really collapse down at all.

You're killing me man. Which section? The part between front grille and box or box to throttle body? If the tube sitting between the box and TB is collapsing, then your filter element is the restriction for about 90% of the flow. The rest may be attributed to the stock box if not modified to flow more by removing the snow/bug screen and the downwards baffle in front of the filter element.

[audistealth]

In another recent thread someone chimed in and said they had a GIAC tuner under training in NC. Not seen a word since?

PM Austin@GIAC.

[jran76]

You're killing me man. Which section? The part between front grille and box or box to throttle body? If the tube sitting between the box and TB is collapsing, then your filter element is the restriction for about 90% of the flow. The rest may be attributed to the stock box if not modified to flow more by removing the snow/bug screen and the downwards baffle in front of the filter element.

Haha. The part from front grille to the air box.

From the box to throttle, I have the APR CF tube which I don't think is a major restriction, but the thin CF likely picks up quite a bit of heat.

My box is stock. Still has the downward baffles and snow screen. AWE filter.

With the snorkel removed, I gained from 50-100 Kg/h in Air Mass. Not a lot, but it helped.

[audistealth]

Haha. The part from front grille to the air box.

From the box to throttle, I have the APR CF tube which I don't think is a major restriction, but the thin CF likely picks up quite a bit of heat.

My box is stock. Still has the downward baffles and snow screen. AWE filter.

With the snorkel removed, I gained from 50-100 Kg/h in Air Mass. Not a lot, but it helped.

+1 for statistical verification!

[SwankPeRFection]

Haha. The part from front grille to the air box.

From the box to throttle, I have the APR CF tube which I don't think is a major restriction, but the thin CF likely picks up quite a bit of heat.

My box is stock. Still has the downward baffles and snow screen. AWE filter.

With the snorkel removed, I gained from 50-100 Kg/h in Air Mass. Not a lot, but it helped.

In that current config the snow screen is no longer causing you a restriction. The downward baffle is however. Unknown how much, but it is blocking some airflow and direction. What filter is inside the box? The K&N that comes with APR's intake?

[jran76]

AWE filter. Definitely no issues with the snow/bug screen right now.

This is a short term setup.... I have a CTS intake (Roc-Euro clone) waiting to go on, but they have not been able to provide the correct hardware to install the heat shield. First, there was no hardware at all (or vacuum hose extension). They sent me some parts yesterday and the vacuum hose now works, but the mounting bolts are 2-3mm too big for mounting holes in the base of the heat shield.

I'm probably going to tap out the holes to make it fit, but the whole thing has been a PITA. Thomas from Emmanuel Design where I purchased it has been very helpful and CTS has been responsive, but it's taken a month to get to this point. It looks like a good intake if I can get it on.... I could go buy new hardware, but I want to make sure they remedy this so others don't have the same issue versus letting them off the hook.

I have tried to install it 3 different times with no luck. The good news is I can install an intake in about 5 minutes now....

[SwankPeRFection]

3mm too long or too big and won't thread into hole? If they're too long, just cut them with a wire stripper. Remember that post I made a while back about the screw holes used to sheer screws flush that are on wire strippers? Course that depends on the diameter of the screws. If they're too big for that, a hack saw and some rethreading after cut will work just fine if you have the tools.

[audistealth]

So you're saying CTS can't even copy a product properly? Or ship, whatever. First missing parts, then shipped wrong sized parts, and that's just one customer! Swank, where's the soapbox?

[jran76]

3mm too long or too big and won't thread into hole? If they're too long, just cut them with a wire stripper. Remember that post I made a while back about the screw holes used to sheer screws flush that are on wire strippers? Course that depends on the diameter of the screws. If they're too big for that, a hack saw and some rethreading after cut will work just fine if you have the tools.

Really both. I can deal with the too long pretty easily. The too big is the issue. The largest bit I have is 9.5mm, and the bolt is 10mm wide. I am going to Dremmel out the rest.

So you're saying CTS can't even copy a product properly? Or ship, whatever. First missing parts, then shipped wrong sized parts, and that's just one customer! Swank, where's the soapbox?

Ah, yeah. Pretty much. The pictures they sent me showed hardware that would work. I was pretty confused because the hardware they sent me would not work the way they showed (and there are no instructions). At least two other people had the same issue, but they say they have shipped some that worked (my guess is the others just went to the hardware store and got what they needed). Obviously, they are having some disconnect between their engineering and procurement/shipping people....

[Arin@APR]

I'd say that is fair. Wish APR would release their TCU tune to make my decision easier.

Already in development. I don't think you'll be disappointed. Our DQ250 software was a total home run and we have the resources to make this one even better.

[Arin@APR]

They were working on the DQ250 dsg first before ours and I'm imagining they are going to offer the same benefits:

http://www.goapr.com/products/tcu_up...0_exx_fxx.html

Very similar. Have you read the reviews people have given on it? It's outstanding and I'm really pleased.

Basically we're giving YOU, the end user, what YOU want.

You want auto upshift on? Ok
Want it off? Sure!
Want the kickdown disabled? You got it!
Want it on? No problem!
How bout your launch RPM? Tell us what you want.

There are many other things we're adding too and I've read and addressed all the concerns, from short shifting, to that pesky, OEM 1-2 shift that just seems to haunt some DSGs. It's shaping up to be quite exciting. : )

[Arin@APR]

A DSG tune is essential on a stage 2 as the stock tune limits the available power further up the revs by changing up too early. The stock DSG tune obviously works in conjunction with the stock engine tune where the power falls off quickly after 5.5k revs so it makes no sense to change just before redline. A DSG tune will liberate the available power made from an engine tune.

I will put my neck on the line and state that the 2014 B8.5 tunes have been released to early and that suggesting the cars are at fault is a red herring.

Back in the early days of S4 B8 tuning the stage 1 tunes were hit and miss with many suppliers subsequently issuing a V2 of their tune free of charge. One of the main functions of the ECU is to protect the engine and transmission from excess torque/power and it uses a variety of parameters to make such calculations. This wasn’t fully understood in the initial B8 tunes.

If the ECU does calculate an excess boost/power/torque/lean condition is will do what it can to reduce the perceived danger. This can include bleeding boost and altering fuelling but we know from our own testing that timing pull is the main mechanism used. You’ll be surprised how much of a difference 6-7 degrees timing pull feels across the cylinders. It will feel gutless.

I believe the new 2014 B8.5 tunes are experiencing similar problems to the original B8 tunes. I am not sure if this issue is limited to stage 2 or applies to both stage 1 and stage 2 files.

V2 changed one thing: Boost request in very cold climates.

It's trivial. Not exactly earth shattering.

[Arin@APR]

The best advice I got was to ditch the APR intake/stock box, and go with something open with a heat shield. From talking to the right people, the general consensus is that it's pretty well proven that you need something open to run fast times once you get to stage 2. The stock air box is a major restriction, and I can see that in my logs (not a problem specific to APR as theirs is a slight improvement over the stock box, but not on the same level as an open one). Go with Roc-Euro, USP, or CTS (if they can get they're stuff together- I still can't install mine because they have not provided the correct mounting hardware)

Strange. I have a stage 3 supercharger on my own car, and tested both with the cover on and off.

With the hood down, having the cover on was better.

With the hood open, having the cover off was only slightly better.

I typically drive with my hood closed.

[jran76]

Strange. I have a stage 3 supercharger on my own car, and tested both with the cover on and off.

With the hood down, having the cover on was better.

With the hood open, having the cover off was only slightly better.

I typically drive with my hood closed.

I did not remove the top of the box.

One look at the 1/4 time list pretty much confirms what the best type of intake is. The 1/4 mile times and logs don't lie.

I would imagine your stage 3 would like it a lot more if you ran a nice big open filter and heat shield to go along with that fat intake tube....

[Ynnekdude]

I did not remove the top of the box.

One look at the 1/4 time list pretty much confirms what the best type of intake is. The 1/4 mile times and logs don't lie.

I would imagine your stage 3 would like it a lot more if you ran a nice big open filter and heat shield to go along with that fat intake tube....

Yup Not dissing on APRs intake but open elements seem to be the best option.

[saxon]

Very similar. Have you read the reviews people have given on it? It's outstanding and I'm really pleased.

Basically we're giving YOU, the end user, what YOU want.

You want auto upshift on? Ok
Want it off? Sure!
Want the kickdown disabled? You got it!
Want it on? No problem!
How bout your launch RPM? Tell us what you want.

There are many other things we're adding too and I've read and addressed all the concerns, from short shifting, to that pesky, OEM 1-2 shift that just seems to haunt some DSGs. It's shaping up to be quite exciting. : )

Do this with the tune and then you have a home run

[SDB666]

Already in development. I don't think you'll be disappointed. Our DQ250 software was a total home run and we have the resources to make this one even better.

When!? I have money and it's burning a hole in my pocket. Need a beta tester?

[McFuzz]

Why don't you send Hansel an APR Mobile dongle and have him send you some logs that way? :D








Oh wait...

[Hansel]

Why don't you send Hansel an APR Mobile dongle and have him send you some logs that way? :D








Oh wait...

If it was available I would. I'd give them real world driving, track driving etc.

[McFuzz]

If it was available I would. I'd give them real world driving, track driving etc.

It actually is available and works on my GTI though I am not sure about whether it is compatible with a chipped S4, but I don't see why not. It does have a $200 price point... But if Arin wants to help I am sure he can loan you one.

The problem with the dongles is that, at least amongst the GTI folks, it seems to "freeze" halfway through data logging. I personally haven't had the problem but others have. That said, though, certainly an alternative to VCDS, but I don't know if its just as good. Oh and you can only use iOS devices with the dongle.

[jl87]

It won't work with the S4, I believe Arin has mentioned it before...maybe if we're lucky they will have it come out along with the DSG TCU tune.

[westwest888]

Echoing what was said earlier in the thread, I also noticed performance problems in the intake system. My solution was the "stage 2" APR pipe, which is a nice tensile tube made of an appropriate amount of carbon fiber, and the AWE S-flow filter in the stock airbox. I kept the airbox stock purely for CARB legal emissions in California. They really don't like it when you mess with the airbox, the cats, or the gas cap in this state.

[SwankPeRFection]

West, the intake system problems you thought you had in the past was due to you thinking the 034 tube you had between the box and TB was collapsing on you. The stock one is rigid enough not to do so and what was reported by Arin here was a collapse of the small section between the box and front grille pickup.

[westwest888]

West, the intake system problems you thought you had in the past was due to you thinking the 034 tube you had between the box and TB was collapsing on you. The stock one is rigid enough not to do so and what was reported by Arin here was a collapse of the small section between the box and front grille pickup.

I like how you can't distend the APR tube. It keeps nice smooth airflow going. The soft body tube is more a diaphragm, flexing and flattening as vacuum forces as placed on it. I realize the full volume isn't compromised in the stiffer tubes, but they still oval.

[saxon]

i really think the big thing you see with all of the cars running 11's in the summer time is an upgraded cooling system

id imagine the stock cooling system cant keep up, the tuners use the stock iat correction and at that point reduces the boost to dismal values to combat the normal than higher iats

[SwankPeRFection]

i really think the big thing you see with all of the cars running 11's in the summer time is an upgraded cooling system

id imagine the stock cooling system cant keep up, the tuners use the stock iat correction and at that point reduces the boost to dismal values to combat the normal than higher iats

Except in both problem vehicles here, the bypass valve isn't opening, so that can't be it.

[jran76]

Except in both problem vehicles here, the bypass valve isn't opening, so that can't be it.

That is correct in my case. In all of my logging with crappy IAT's, my bypass valve has never opened under WOT. The only time I have seen it open under WOT is when I over-rev to 7200+ RPM on the 1-2 shift, and it opens for a brief second while the trans hangs up. We think this may be due to wheel spin, but that's just a guess. I can tell you from logs that every time my car hangs on the 1-2 shift, it is under those over-rev conditions.

I do know that the bypass valve can open with really bad IAT's, but I have not seen it. I have crept up over 80C IAT's in some of my logging. Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I think low boost can come from a myriad of factors:
1. Elevation- higher means less dense air, and lower boost (see ambient pressure- in my case 98-99 kPa)
2. Hotter temps- same thing, hot air is less dense
3. Less air- less air=less pressure with all things equal
4. Boost leaks- pretty self explanatory
5. Bypass valve opening- either due to conditions, tuning or other factors

[AnotherJake]

Why don't you send Hansel an APR Mobile dongle and have him send you some logs that way? :D








Oh wait...

Haha. Sure would be nice to have.

[SwankPeRFection]

Well, I can tell you that in a previous platform that had a vacuum controlled mechanical bypass valve, the only time I saw lower boost than what the pulley was supposed to give is when my belt would slip, when there was a leak somewhere and that's about it. Hot or cold boost would be the same on my mechanical gauge. Power of course would fluctuate because timing would get pulled due to hot air outside durin the winter, but boost always stayed the same. That platform had a pulley that would max out at 10PSI.

Obviously out stuff is fancier now with electronically controlled everything, but the point I was trying to make is in that case, hot or cold or humid, boost at 10 PSI was the same in all conditions as measured by my gauge.

[saxon]

Well, I can tell you that in a previous platform that had a vacuum controlled mechanical bypass valve, the only time I saw lower boost than what the pulley was supposed to give is when my belt would slip, when there was a leak somewhere and that's about it. Hot or cold boost would be the same on my mechanical gauge. Power of course would fluctuate because timing would get pulled due to hot air outside durin the winter, but boost always stayed the same. That platform had a pulley that would max out at 10PSI.

Obviously out stuff is fancier now with electronically controlled everything, but the point I was trying to make is in that case, hot or cold or humid, boost at 10 PSI was the same in all conditions as measured by my gauge.

That's what I don't get with these cars, some cars see 14psi, others see 17 with identical hardware

Maybe different tensioners, bad tensioners or belts

[SwankPeRFection]

That's what I don't get with these cars, some cars see 14psi, others see 17 with identical hardware

Maybe different tensioners, bad tensioners or belts

Could be bad casting tolerances on the supercharger manifold or casing. Ask Arin how much impact to flow, temperature stability and even boost that can have. There was a good reason he sent back the Stage 3 the last time and I'm willing to bet some design reworking was done to improve a few things flow wise.

[will13k7]

Could be bad casting tolerances on the supercharger manifold or casing. Ask Arin how much impact to flow, temperature stability and even boost that can have. There was a good reason he sent back the Stage 3 the last time and I'm willing to bet some design reworking was done to improve a few things flow wise.

I bet these cars can produce 12 psi in almost every weather condition, which is the peek stock. Now that we are asking for more from this system, a lot more variations in weather and build tolerances probably come into play.

APR played it conservative in their charts, showing 14psi. Anything above that is gravy, but no guarantees I would assume.

[BoostEasy]

A DSG tune is essential on a stage 2 as the stock tune limits the available power further up the revs by changing up too early. The stock DSG tune obviously works in conjunction with the stock engine tune where the power falls off quickly after 5.5k revs so it makes no sense to change just before redline. A DSG tune will liberate the available power made from an engine tune.

I will put my neck on the line and state that the 2014 B8.5 tunes have been released to early and that suggesting the cars are at fault is a red herring.

Back in the early days of S4 B8 tuning the stage 1 tunes were hit and miss with many suppliers subsequently issuing a V2 of their tune free of charge. One of the main functions of the ECU is to protect the engine and transmission from excess torque/power and it uses a variety of parameters to make such calculations. This wasn’t fully understood in the initial B8 tunes.

If the ECU does calculate an excess boost/power/torque/lean condition is will do what it can to reduce the perceived danger. This can include bleeding boost and altering fuelling but we know from our own testing that timing pull is the main mechanism used. You’ll be surprised how much of a difference 6-7 degrees timing pull feels across the cylinders. It will feel gutless.

I believe the new 2014 B8.5 tunes are experiencing similar problems to the original B8 tunes. I am not sure if this issue is limited to stage 2 or applies to both stage 1 and stage 2 files.

Good thoughts Andy...

This sounds just like the dreaded "timing flatline" which is legendary on the BMW n54 platform. It's well known that the ZF 6HP-19 in that platform apparently sends some message on the CAN BUS which is read by the ECU and timing goes to basically zero on higher HP (usually 3-4) shifts. The only fix for it is apparently a pirated copy of the Alpina software for the same trans used on their B3 car of the same series. It allows more torque before complaining to the ECU = better timing post-shift.

It's possible that the 2014 3.0T platform may have something similar hiding in either the ECU or the DSG's mechatronics or both.

[BoostEasy]

That's what I don't get with these cars, some cars see 14psi, others see 17 with identical hardware

Maybe different tensioners, bad tensioners or belts

Modern ECUs don't care much for boost pressure. They work off load calculations and torque @ rpm targets.

It depends on where you're measuring the boost as well. I think in most cases people are reading logs from VCDS which should be comparable. If using a boost tap though, I think that taps reads the pre-cooled air at the bypass valve which should report a little higher than post-intercooler air that I believe the dual boost/temp sensors on the SC are measuring.

I may be more useful to compare kg/s of air mass moved if you can read that just as easily as MAP.

If there was a concern of slippage, some guys have said good things about using traction compound for tires/dragstrips on the SC belt. Something like: http://www.jegs.com/p/PJ1/PJ1-Track-...49307/10002/-1

Checking some other platform forums, some guys said the compound wears off and the belt might start slipping again but if nothing else it works great as an indicator you have a slippage problem to begin with. Might be worth a look given how small the st2 pulleys are.

[NWS4Guy]

I bet these cars can produce 12 psi in almost every weather condition, which is the peek stock. Now that we are asking for more from this system, a lot more variations in weather and build tolerances probably come into play.

APR played it conservative in their charts, showing 14psi. Anything above that is gravy, but no guarantees I would assume.

Yes, if I recall, these were done without CPS to add extra cooling to the IC loop, and were done in very hot and humid conditions to illustrate minimum returns. In the cool (well ok not for the past week) Pac Northwest, I regularly see in excess of 15 and 16 PSI, once on an especially cold morning, I got a little over 17.

[Skywagon]

For what it's worth. Just spoke to "Tommy" at GIAC. In about a week a new dealership will be opening in Asheville NC. A stage two tune is $1795 and a DSG tune is $700. However, a sale will be starting soon.

[Hansel]

Update**

Plugs & fuel system cleaner are in. Car is still performing the same way. I also have the car at the Audi dealer getting all checked over, boost leaks, codes and what not. Just incase the vag com is different and could miss something.

[Arin@APR]

Thank you.

Have you had a chance to locate a vag-com?

Please tell me when you do so we can run though what to log and how to log it.

-Arin

[Hansel]

Thank you.

Have you had a chance to locate a vag-com?

Please tell me when you do so we can run though what to log and how to log it.

-Arin

I talked to peter @ Efab motorsports, I'm going back out by him Thursday. That way I can drive while he does the logs.

[drob23]

For what it's worth. Just spoke to "Tommy" at GIAC. In about a week a new dealership will be opening in Asheville NC. A stage two tune is $1795 and a DSG tune is $700. However, a sale will be starting soon.

Wait...you're gonna throw on an additional $2500 for a GIAC tune to the money you already spent on APR?!?! Can you return your APR software?