Engine is Out!!! What next? - B8.5 2.0T Engine Upgrade/Rebuild

[SNice]

Old ones felt pretty much like the new ones. The exhaust side one had a little front/back play - no doubt a result of me using the puller and taping on it to get it free.

I don’t think I had to touch them. Had I not pulled off the intermediate sprocket - I probably would have let them be. But I did and so I decided to go deeper.

Pics below compare new and old.:
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For shi$&s and giggles - I decided to pull them apart to see what all the fuss is about:
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Much simpler than I imagined. I was unable to get the intake side balance shaft apart. It was much tighter. I’m sure it has a similar construction.

They look like they could be rebuilt with a press - or maybe even just heat up the gear and put it on. You would just need to know the proper outer dimension to get it right. I wonder if it is possible to buy only the gear?

Seeing it apart - I now see why oil pressure and flow is sooooo important in these engines.

I need to find an oil diagram to see where these feed from - and what would need to be blocked for them to starve to the point of seizing.

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New and old plastic covers are identical. The old one was not super brittle as I had expected. It was just a little bit stiffer than the new one. Same part number - no updated revision number. All other parts of the balance shaft assembly components had updated letters at the end of their part numbers.

Finally, put in an order for the last parts I should need!
2x freeze plugs and 8x cam adjuster seals. The old ones are stiff and definitely need to be replaced! Remember - I’m at 120k!
Besides oil and coolant - I really hope I do not come across anything else I need to order! I’m in waaaaayyyyyy deeper than I intended.
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[SNice]

Got the block out today to start the process of gapping the rings. While looking over the block, I made another discovery (to me).

There appear to be pressed in bearings in the block that the rear journals of the balance shaft ride on. They are oil fed. Mine are clean - as are the rear journals of the balance shaft.

I could imagine a scenario where putting in the balance shaft at the wrong angle or forcing it a bit too fast could damage these bearings. Just something to think about for reassembly. Bow I’m glad I popped the freeze plugs because I can keep an eye on them as I put the balance shafts back in.

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[SNice]

Been searching for this for a while and finally happened upon it! Saving for reference!

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[Allowencer]

Been searching for this for a while and finally happened upon it! Saving for reference!

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I've had this haha

This is why I got adapters and put my oil pressure sender on the oil filter adapter housing. Going to the turbo, like others have, you're not getting an accurate reading.

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[SNice]

I've had this haha

This is why I got adapters and put my oil pressure sender on the oil filter adapter housing. Going to the turbo, like others have, you're not getting an accurate reading.

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Yes, looking at the diagram - it makes sense...where I'm currently reading it is so far downstream that I'm really not getting any good info. All I know is that the turbo isn't being starved. May look into that relocation too!

[SNice]

So... the ring gap is giving me a headache. I'm going back and forth on where to set it. I'd rather be too big than too small. I'm going to do the following:
Top Ring: .022" (.559mm)
2nd Ring: .023"(.584mm)

[Allowencer]

What type of rings?
What piston?

Did the piston/ring manufacture give you a card?

What's the amount of boost you want to run?

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[SNice]

What type of rings?
What piston?

Did the piston/ring manufacture give you a card?

What's the amount of boost you want to run?

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They’re the ones that come with the mahle pistons from ie. Stock bore.

Not too sure about the boost yet…but want to be prepared to turn it all the way up.

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I’m kinda straddling the turbo/race levels


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[SNice]

Here’s my calcs and

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…not too worried about too big - that can be fixed. Definitely don’t want to be too small - I think that’s what happened in the flink films build.


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[SNice]

…wait a min… looking at what I just posted - I may have messed up the calc… need to double check my units… I may have mixed them up going between in/mm…


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[Allowencer]

I did 0.028" for ring gap as I intend on going with a larger turbo if that gives you an idea

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[SNice]

I did 0.028" for ring gap as I intend on going with a larger turbo if that gives you an idea

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Woah! I was worried about going to big! And yours is already running!

Hard to get actual numbers. I’ve been scouring the vw BT setups (gti’s, etc).

I have an efr 6758 that I’ve been “fitting” to this car for over a year. Past K04 but don’t know if it qualifies as a true “BIG TURBO”.


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[Allowencer]

If you have an EFR, run what I have or not more than 0.030"

Compression was around 160 PSI (avg across all cylinders) before the first fire and rings seating

Leakdown was 9% (avg) before first fire and rings seating.

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[Allowencer]

Take a pic of your piston card and post it here, please

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[SNice]

Take a pic of your piston card and post it here, please

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It’s above - a few posts up. I’m stock bore. My calcs are above too. I’m currently in the turbo/turbo_race range.


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[Allowencer]

No no, not that sheet. You should have a card that has the lot #, code type, weight of pistons (in grams), etc.

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[SNice]

No no, not that sheet. You should have a card that has the lot #, code type, weight of pistons (in grams), etc.

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Ohhh! Reading too fast… didn’t see anything with specs like that. Might need to dig up the box - but these are the ones I got - from IE

https://performancebyie.com/collecti...w-audi-20t-fsi


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[Allowencer]

Those are the same ones I got! Mine came with Total Seal rings.

There will be another card for sure

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[SNice]

Those are the same ones I got! Mine came with Total Seal rings.

There will be another card for sure

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Cool! Not familiar with total seal but I will look them up. Not seeing any cards but this was on the outside of the box:
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[Allowencer]

That's it! Now I need to figure out wtf I put mine. SOB!

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[SNice]

Rings gapped.

Top to 0.024” (.610mm)
2nd to 0.026” (0.660mm

Bigger than I intended… but I think that is safer than smaller.

I cut the top rings first. They took a very long time so I started using the drill to speed up the process. Cleaned up all burrs with a small file and sandpaper. Originally had top rings set to .022”.

Then I moved on to the 2nd rings which proved to be a bit more of a challenge. The material is much softer (knowledge I now hold). In any event. The first second ring I filed - I blew past .024 and ended up at .026”. I figured consistency is best so I CAREFULLY and SLOWLY cut all the rest to .026” to match. I then went back and widened the top gaps to .024”.

Think I should be OK. I’m still just below the wear limit for stock rings in the Audi documentation…. Time will tell… moving on.

Top:
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2nd:
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Filing setup:
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Next up will be measuring piston, rod, and crank bearing clearances.

[apeck240]

Jfc y'all got some massive ring gaps

[SNice]

Jfc y'all got some massive ring gaps

Lol. I know - sailed right on past .019,.020…. I blame it on the drill!

Also - horror stories of rings too tight had me shook. I can always put in smaller. I’m still a novice engine builder :).


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[apeck240]

Lol. I know - sailed right on past .019,.020…. I blame it on the drill!

Also - horror stories of rings too tight had me shook. I can always put in smaller. I’m still a novice engine builder :).


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Yeah I forgot what I hit with one of mine but I ended up getting another set for just the one compression ring lol. 22 is at the very top of that chart, 28 is wild

[Allowencer]

I spoke with MAHLE direct too. If you're gonna run some good boost and cylinder pressure, 0.026-0.030" is a good spot.

If you're a stock to maybe mild k04 build, I wouldn't go past 0.024".

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[apeck240]

I spoke with MAHLE direct too. If you're gonna run some good boost and cylinder pressure, 0.026-0.030" is a good spot.

If you're a stock to maybe mild k04 build, I wouldn't go past 0.024".

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Did they acknowledge that's like 50% more than all the ring size charts available? The ones that say turbo on them already?

Why would you go anywhere near 24 with stock or k04? That is still further than the highest number on the chart. I'm running 19/20 and can still use a stock pcv and have no blow by

[Allowencer]

Did they acknowledge that's like 50% more than all the ring size charts available? The ones that say turbo on them already?

Why would you go anywhere near 24 with stock or k04? That is still further than the highest number on the chart. I'm running 19/20 and can still use a stock pcv and have no blow by

It all depends on the materials. What are the pistons made out of and what are the ring's made out if.

Metalology is a big part of this and how a ring can expand.

I am also running 83mm pistons with Total Seal rings.

When I say trust me, please do. I've built many engines. This is a very reasonable setting.

If you do the math based on MAHLE's chart, for a 83mm bore (3.2677") on the turbo over 15lbs, the Calc comes to 0.022869". Call it 0.023".

What if you're running 30psi of boost? What's your CR too? All of those things matter.

Adding another 0.005" on the ring gaps is not going to hurt. If anything, adds more safety.

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[apeck240]

It all depends on the materials. What are the pistons made out of and what are the ring's made out if.

Metalology is a big part of this and how a ring can expand.

I am also running 83mm pistons with Total Seal rings.

When I say trust me, please do. I've built many engines. This is a very reasonable setting.

If you do the math based on MAHLE's chart, for a 83mm bore (3.2677") on the turbo over 15lbs, the Calc comes to 0.022869". Call it 0.023".

What if you're running 30psi of boost? What's your CR too? All of those things matter.

Adding another 0.005" on the ring gaps is not going to hurt. If anything, adds more safety.

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Yes the chart from the manufacturer, the one that knows what the piston and rings are made out of, goes from 0.014 to 0.022, yeah 0.028 is huge. And what if you do run 30psi of boost? What if you run 38psi of boost consistently and have peaked 40 with 0.019 because that's that the manufacturer says? Idk I kinda think they know what they're talking about. But I like how you quote the manufacturer and their chart, which I followed and you didn't

[SNice]

I don't know that anyone is wrong here. Last line of the second paragraph states that the published values are suggested minimums.

I scoured the internet on this one - I have "wasted" so much time researching ring gaps and searching for similar builds 2.0 boosted engines. I've been on VW forums, miata forums, subaru forums. The numbers are all over the place and the only people that seem to have any issues are the ones that are below the minimums. I am really curious what the Flink Films guy had his gapped to before he scored his cylinders. That is all I'm trying to avoid here. It is very comforting that you both have engines that are running! I think the ideal state is definitely the minimum gap but I just have too many unknowns at this point so I went with safe (and I was a little aggressive with the file on the soft second ring!)! I'm not too concerned about lost compression or blow by - but we shall see!

[apeck240]

I don't know that anyone is wrong here. Last line of the second paragraph states that the published values are suggested minimums.

I scoured the internet on this one - I have "wasted" so much time researching ring gaps and searching for similar builds 2.0 boosted engines. I've been on VW forums, miata forums, subaru forums. The numbers are all over the place and the only people that seem to have any issues are the ones that are below the minimums. I am really curious what the Flink Films guy had his gapped to before he scored his cylinders. That is all I'm trying to avoid here. It is very comforting that you both have engines that are running! I think the ideal state is definitely the minimum gap but I just have too many unknowns at this point so I went with safe (and I was a little aggressive with the file on the soft second ring!)! I'm not too concerned about lost compression or blow by - but we shall see!

I asked before the engine went and he didn't know lol, yes they butted and scored the cylinders, surprised he didn't pop a ringland

[SNice]

I asked before the engine went and he didn't know lol, yes they butted and scored the cylinders, surprised he didn't pop a ringland

!!!!! Thanks for the confirmation. I went back and watched all the videos trying to figure out where he went wrong on that one. I really felt for him. I finally saw the one where he tore down the engine and had vertical scoring. I figured it had to be from the rings not being gapped. They were really tight out of the box. Mine ranged from .005” to .010”. That was a HUGE (and expensive) miss if he didn’t touch them.


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[apeck240]

!!!!! Thanks for the confirmation. I went back and watched all the videos trying to figure out where he went wrong on that one. I really felt for him. I finally saw the one where he tore down the engine and had vertical scoring. I figured it had to be from the rings not being gapped. They were really tight out of the box. Mine ranged from .005” to .010”. That was a HUGE (and expensive) miss if he didn’t touch them.


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Yeah if you find the q&a one he shows my original comment asking lol

[Allowencer]

Yes the chart from the manufacturer, the one that knows what the piston and rings are made out of, goes from 0.014 to 0.022, yeah 0.028 is huge. And what if you do run 30psi of boost? What if you run 38psi of boost consistently and have peaked 40 with 0.019 because that's that the manufacturer says? Idk I kinda think they know what they're talking about. But I like how you quote the manufacturer and their chart, which I followed and you didn't

Based on your reply, it is apparent you did not read my post before the one you quoted.

I called and talked to MAHLE's lead tech. What I shared is good knowledge.

Like SNice said, those are "minimums".

Listen, I'm on here to help share knowledge. I've built 5.0 Mustang engines, 350s, Coyote engines, GM 3800s (countless), Jeep straight 6s, K-Series, LS1, LS2, LSXs, etc. I'm not here to brag but I feel like I need to share my credentials each time.

Listen and learn if you want or dont.. all up to you.

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[apeck240]

Based on your reply, it is apparent you did not read my post before the one you quoted.

I called and talked to MAHLE's lead tech. What I shared is good knowledge.

Like SNice said, those are "minimums".

Listen, I'm on here to help share knowledge. I've built 5.0 Mustang engines, 350s, Coyote engines, GM 3800s (countless), Jeep straight 6s, K-Series, LS1, LS2, LSXs, etc. I'm not here to brag but I feel like I need to share my credentials each time.

Listen and learn if you want or dont.. all up to you.

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You think you're the only one building engines? Is yours gonna blow up? Obviously not. Is the ring gap much bigger than it needs to be? Definitely. And thinking 5 thou in an engine is negligible is wrong. Again, it won't hurt anything other than probably needing a catch can. But saying your spec like 50% over the chart is preferred or better ain't right. The people that made the parts know plenty about the "metalology"?? You wanna go way bigger than the blown nitrous spec for an engine making like 100whp per cylinder that's fine but I wouldn't be telling other people to do it

[Allowencer]

You think you're the only one building engines? Is yours gonna blow up? Obviously not. Is the ring gap much bigger than it needs to be? Definitely. And thinking 5 thou in an engine is negligible is wrong. Again, it won't hurt anything other than probably needing a catch can. But saying your spec like 50% over the chart is preferred or better ain't right. The people that made the parts know plenty about the "metalology"?? You wanna go way bigger than the blown nitrous spec for an engine making like 100whp per cylinder that's fine but I wouldn't be telling other people to do it

0.005" / 0.028" = 0.1785. 17.85% larger. Not 50%. :)

Take care dude.

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[apeck240]

0.005" / 0.028" = 0.1785. 17.85% larger. Not 50%. :)

Take care dude.

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Maybe try that math again, you do it to the first number, the 28 is the result. And you don't need to list engines you've built, but it explains why you're used to big ring gaps. And forgive me for ignoring "credentials", the last one on here was an "electrical engineer" that didn't know how ignition coils work

But by all means act like you're the one that knows things and I should learn, if only I built engines or ran big boost like a whole 30psi

[Allowencer]

Sorry, 21.73%. I was thinking surface off of the total.

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[apeck240]

Sorry, 21.73%. I was thinking surface off of the total.

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If you're gonna be this pedantic do it on the median of the chart
And it's metallurgy btw

[Nano909]

Maybe try that math again, you do it to the first number, the 28 is the result. And you don't need to list engines you've built, but it explains why you're used to big ring gaps. And forgive me for ignoring "credentials", the last one on here was an "electrical engineer" that didn't know how ignition coils work

But by all means act like you're the one that knows things and I should learn, if only I built engines or ran big boost like a whole 30psi

It's not like you have the only running built engine with a big turbo B8 pushing over 500hp or anything.

[SNice]

Released the full arsenal of measuring tools. Went well… but… my piston/bore clearance is a little questionable. I’m definitely at the upper limit of the mahle spec. Cylinder 1 is a little over (.0002”). I understand why folks get the new bore. It makes sense. In any event, I’m gonna drop ‘em in and send it. I won’t be shy about pulling the motor again if I end up with slappy pistons.

I also measured my main bearing clearances. At first I tried to do it by installing the main caps and measuring with a bore gauge. This did not work and was a complete failure. Not only did it risk marring the bearing surface, it was very difficult to get good measurements due to the oiling channel in the upper bearing.

I threw in the towel and ran to my local auto parts store to get a plastigage (per Audi manual). Turns out they had one in stock and it had been there since the store opened (over 2 years ago). Only one of the 3 associates knew what a plastigage was. The senior associate (literally) had to give a lesson on what a plastigage was to his coworkers. Lol. I felt so cool! Lol. I had a similar experience when I went in the other day and asked for lapping compound. Smh. Guess this is a dying art…

Plastigage worked and my crank and bearings are within spec!
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