Engine is Out!!! What next? - B8.5 2.0T Engine Upgrade/Rebuild

[Allowencer]

You need to measure the bearings with a caliper. Then you measure the bores without the bearings in it. Do the math between that and the crank's main journals and you'll have your clearance.

You could also measure with the bearings in but you have to check inside and outside of the oil groove. Takes a steady hand but it's doable.

If you're measuring 0.0002" off on the bore, that's nothing man. You also measured with no head bolted on too! Easily the deck under load will distort the cylinder walls up to 0.0004".

You measure the bores by bolting the head back on with your old head gasket (clean it up), flip the block over and measure the bores that way.

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk

[Allowencer]

I wouldn't trust plastigague either as its only good to 0.001.
You really need to do math down to 0.0001" as it can give you way different results.

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk

[SNice]

Yeah - the plastigage was a last resort - not ideal in my book either - but it is called out in the Audi documentation which I found interesting.

Thanks for the tip on measuring without the bearings in. I’ll definitely try that for the rod clearances. I was worried about marring the bearing surface/coating. That will prevent that.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine Forum

[Allowencer]

Yeah - the plastigage was a last resort - not ideal in my book either - but it is called out in the Audi documentation which I found interesting.

Thanks for the tip on measuring without the bearings in. I’ll definitely try that for the rod clearances. I was worried about marring the bearing surface/coating. That will prevent that.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine Forum

I have a soft pin for my bore gauge for that exact reason. It might show a suff mark if I'm not careful, but it won't take any coating or material off.

On the bearings too, if you don't have a tube mic, use a drill bit to measure the bearing (inside). Then you subtract the diameter of the drill bit (measure that).

This article does a good job explaining it all: https://knowhow.napaonline.com/know-...ing-clearance/

Sent from my SM-N976V using Audizine Forum mobile app

[SNice]

I have a soft pin for my bore gauge for that exact reason. It might show a suff mark if I'm not careful, but it won't take any coating or material off.

On the bearings too, if you don't have a tube mic, use a drill bit to measure the bearing (inside). Then you subtract the diameter of the drill bit (measure that).

This article does a good job explaining it all: https://knowhow.napaonline.com/know-...ing-clearance/

Sent from my SM-N976V using Audizine Forum mobile app

Thanks for the tip! It worked. There’s a little ball adapter that came with my micrometers. I was able to use that to measure the thickness of the bearings. Thanks for the article too! Useful info!
IMG_1183.jpg

Bearing thicknesses for reference. Need to check against my part numbers but the measurements I took were pretty consistent with these values:
IMG_1184.jpg

I was able to get accurate readings for the rod bearing clearances using the above method - however - it did not work for the main bearings. The main caps must deform under load to get to the proper clearance. The only way I was able to get good readings on the main clearances was to install the bearings in the block and then carefully measure them. I was very careful not to damage the bearing surfaces with my bore gauge. I got it done and measurements were mostly in spec. Clearances for bearings 1 and 5 were a little out of spec ( 0.047mm, 0.045mm) All others were good (0.027, 0.026, 0.028).

It seems that there is a lot of cap deflection as the bolts are torqued down. - this is most likely why Audi suggests to use the plastigage with crank installed to get clearance measurements.

For this reason - I also now understand why line honing is necessary with the ARP main studs. I also wonder how the studs affect the way the cap deforms as the nuts are torqued down.

…so everything is measured. I think I’m in good shape for reassembly. Time to get all these parts cleaned up!


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine Forum

[beatsageo]

It seems that there is a lot of cap deflection as the bolts are torqued down. - this is most likely why Audi suggests to use the plastigage with crank installed to get clearance measurements.

I was surprised to see comments against plastigauge use, its such a commonly used tool in engine building. The Audi procedure is actually pretty good, this time =) cool build, hope your having fun with it.

[Allowencer]

I was surprised to see comments against plastigauge use, its such a commonly used tool in engine building. The Audi procedure is actually pretty good, this time =) cool build, hope your having fun with it.

Do you want to use a tape measure or a mic to machine a surface?

That's the difference between using plastigauge and a calibrated set of calipers/mics.

If you only care about 0.001" tolerance, plastiguage.

If you want to care about better tolerances, like down to 0.0001", plastigauge can't provide that.

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk

[SNice]

I definitely wouldn’t consider the plastigage a precision measuring tool. The plastigage is great for letting you know if something might be wrong. As long as your clearances are within the marks on the tape, you have a reasonable upper and lower clearance.

One issue I had with the plastigage - I couldn’t guarantee that I didn’t corrupt the readings while taking off the caps.

A positive is that it takes the full assembly into account - with whatever deflection is designed into the caps.

It’s clear Audi puts some “time” into getting the crank clearances right with all of the different bearing sizes. I think that is part of the reason why the plastigage made it into the manual. The precision measuring has already been done.

Also, I think the plastigage works for stock components as I have. I’m using stock bearings, stock caps, and stock main bolts. If I were to switch any of these items out to aftermarket (studs, etc) - besides Also needing a line home, I would not trust the plastigage for those measurements. I might not even trust the caps based on how much they deflect under tension ( in my experience). Who knows what they do with the ARP main studs. I wonder if anyone has had issues fitting (?).


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine Forum

[SNice]

I was surprised to see comments against plastigauge use, its such a commonly used tool in engine building. The Audi procedure is actually pretty good, this time =) cool build, hope your having fun with it.

Definitely has its place! I went into a bit more detail above!

Thank you! I am enjoying this - and learning so much. Definitely doing way more with this car than I ever imagined!


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine Forum

[SNice]

Weather hasn’t been cooperating, so ( with permission ) I decided to bring the operation inside.

Cleaned up the head and fitted it with new springs, seals, and valves.
IMG_1202.jpg
IMG_1213.jpg
IMG_1212.jpg

Gave the block a mineral spirits bath. Scrubbed all oil passages that I could reach. Luckily my paint job was not destroyed. Followed up with a coat of wd40 for protection.

Dried it off with my shop-vac on reverse. Block is clean and ready for assembly!!!

IMG_1209.jpg
IMG_1210.jpg
IMG_1211.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine Forum

[Allowencer]

Did you cut the valves into the seats?

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk

[SNice]

Did you cut the valves into the seats?

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk

Weird - my post on that seems to have disappeared? Or maybe I forgot to post it…
Anyway - the new valves are standard size so no cutting just lapping. Took a few hours and some double sided tape. It was quite relaxing - Rolling the pin between my hands as the pitch changed. Hope I did a good job! :)

Apologies for the out of sequence post!
IMG_1113.jpg
IMG_1111.jpg
IMG_1115.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine Forum

[WHT13AR]

I'm so glad you did this. I was actually worried for your engine. Lol.

Nice valve choice as well, they will serve you well.

Sent from my KB2007 using Audizine Forum mobile app

[Allowencer]

Weird - my post on that seems to have disappeared? Or maybe I forgot to post it…
Anyway - the new valves are standard size so no cutting just lapping. Took a few hours and some double sided tape. It was quite relaxing - Rolling the pin between my hands as the pitch changed. Hope I did a good job! :)

Apologies for the out of sequence post!
IMG_1113.jpg
IMG_1111.jpg
IMG_1115.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine Forum

That's kinda what I meant lol. Good shit man. Really glad you did this. Nice work!

Sent from my SM-N976V using Audizine Forum mobile app

[SNice]

Bottom end details… not much to report here as I’m in the reassemble stage. Using the shop manual (Audi/Vw) to get everything back together. Just following the instructions and paying attention to bolt torques. One thing I had to keep in mind is most of the aftermarket parts (ARP) call out torque specs in ft-lbs whereas the manual is all in metric units. Had to be very mindful in going back and forth - checking units before applying torque.

I used a stretch gauge for the rod bolts. Glad I did this as the final torque was definitely above the nominal in the instructions. The stretch gauge makes sure you get it right. I almost cheaped out on the stretch gauge and got a REALLY cheap one on Amazon. Glad I didn’t. I ended up going with the ARP one. It’s definitely at the higher price point for these tools but it was made to work with the exact bolts I have (ARP). The extra spend was worth the piece of Mind. Plus - the tool was super easy to use and fit the bolts perfectly.

Crank is in! Rods/pistons are in! No hang ups - everything spins freely by hand. So far so good (I think)! :)

[Allowencer]

Nice man!

If I'm not mistaken, the rod bolts should have 0.007" of stretch. I was having to go around 90 ft lbs to achieve that stretch.

Rod stretch is one of the most critical areas when assembling an engine. This is where the strength is achieved for the rotating assembly. 20230402_150631.jpg

Edit: confirmed it is 0.007-0.0075" of stretch

Sent from my SM-N976V using Audizine Forum mobile app

Attachment 317270

[SNice]

Nice man!

If I'm not mistaken, the rod bolts should have 0.007" of stretch. I was having to go around 90 ft lbs to achieve that stretch.

Rod stretch is one of the most critical areas when assembling an engine. This is where the strength is achieved for the rotating assembly. 20230402_150631.jpg

Edit: confirmed it is 0.007-0.0075" of stretch

Sent from my SM-N976V using Audizine Forum mobile app

Attachment 317270

Thanks man! Can’t see your attachment - please repost if possible. I was going off the IE instructions - which had me at .006. Welp - it’s too late now… but at least I’m over 50ftlbs!


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine Forum

[Allowencer]

Attachment loads for me. Its a screenshot from the manual right off ARP's website.

You're using ARP bolts, right? If so, go by the bolt manufacturer for specs.

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk

[SNice]

Attachment loads for me. Its a screenshot from the manual right off ARP's website.

You're using ARP bolts, right? If so, go by the bolt manufacturer for specs.

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk

We must have different bolts ( I hope). ARP 2000 3/8 x 1.5 came with my rods. Everything I’m seeing for that bolt (ie and ARP) is at .0055 -.006.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine Forum

[Allowencer]

These are the ones I use:
https://arp-bolts.com/kits/arpkit-de...?RecordID=4942

Sent from my SM-N976V using Audizine Forum mobile app

[Allowencer]

I have the same rods in the build I posted too. The IE ones.

Do you know the part number of the ARP rod bolts you have?

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk

[SNice]

I have the same rods in the build I posted too. The IE ones.

Do you know the part number of the ARP rod bolts you have?

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk

That’s really interesting . The link you posted calls out the car but don’t see any specs on the bolt. I don’t have part numbers on the exact bolts that came with my rods. They were preinstalled. They are stamped “ARP 2000 13 IE”. That’s all I have. But when I look up similar spec bolts on arp website - I get the .006. Just hoping that you have different bolts (with different specs).


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine Forum

[Allowencer]

Did you see this?: https://tech.arp-bolts.com/instructions/204-6302.pdf

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk

[SNice]

Did you see this?: https://tech.arp-bolts.com/instructions/204-6302.pdf

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk

Yeah - I saw that too and really confused b/c no way I would get that stretch with 30ft lbs. more of a mystery….


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine Forum

[Allowencer]

With bolts, it's like a bell curve on clamping force and stretch to then it's yield point.

Those seem to be custom made with IE stamped on them. You can pay ARP to do that. You're prolly ok with what your running. Unless you're planning to go 500CHP+, I wouldn't worry.

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk

[JLAllroad]

His EFR should be capable of 450-500 whp.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine Forum

[apeck240]

With bolts, it's like a bell curve on clamping force and stretch to then it's yield point.

Those seem to be custom made with IE stamped on them. You can pay ARP to do that. You're prolly ok with what your running. Unless you're planning to go 500CHP+, I wouldn't worry.

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk

The bolts that came with the rods, torqued to the spec of the manufacturer, rated for 700chp? Yeah prolly ok

[SNice]

Well at least I have the pics and the documentation! I think I’ll be ok too. I followed IE’s instructions that came with their pre-assembled rods. If I bought the bolts separate - that would be a different story. I guess all I can do is send it!


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine Forum

[Allowencer]

The bolts that came with the rods, torqued to the spec of the manufacturer, rated for 700chp? Yeah prolly ok

Not sure if you're agreeing or being sarcastic?

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk

[SNice]

Oil pan/sump: Kept the stock oil pump and pickup but replaced pretty much everything else….
B1CEDF9E-3387-4167-A30C-DC7A91DF72FD.jpeg974CED51-A3E1-44B8-A76A-CCA427F76570.jpegB24B615B-8653-41DC-98D6-4C1B0F163046.jpeg05ED3A53-D72B-4934-981B-ED97D5F53577.jpeg
CC0C6EF2-C57A-4B8B-A5A6-CB6F275AD731.jpeg
87BF093A-191C-4CC9-83C9-0B894E2912FE.jpeg

Balance shafts/chain: Installed the new balance shafts, intermediate gear, and chain. Followed the manual and it went pretty smoothly. If I recall , it was 15 rotations to get the marks lined up again.
FD5D3D70-D767-43FD-A0DF-70159C9A9EB7.jpeg
EAD3771A-C3EE-457A-B9A0-52583A97CB97.jpeg
4257BB61-9E86-4790-BB1E-4E04A94A1DB0.jpeg

[Allowencer]

Nice! Way to replace all of the filter and washer parts on the oil basket.

You got everything so clean; very nice! I love it!

As long as you didn't have any vanes chipped in your oil pump and the backlash is good, nothing wrong with the factory pump.

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk

[SNice]

Installing the head:
D7B2D1DF-3653-4C48-B97E-DA3B8605BF51.jpegDC0D5FED-C07B-440C-AF27-63A23BA78B53.jpeg9FFCB56D-8E68-40D4-BFA2-E0F0879ED403.jpeg4860F466-704D-4B1D-80BE-2A92EB1F7C60.jpeg

Note old and new oil return valve. Looks like the little piston destroyed itself or something got caught in there.

04F14712-2EA8-40B0-A181-756365915C22.jpeg

[SNice]

Nice! Way to replace all of the filter and washer parts on the oil basket.

You got everything so clean; very nice! I love it!

As long as you didn't have any vanes chipped in your oil pump and the backlash is good, nothing wrong with the factory pump.

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk

Thanks! Bringing the build inside and a small, tabletop parts washer really changed the cleaning game. I actually got the parts washer idea from your build thread! It’s an invaluable tool! Cheap Amazon purchase - It says “water based” only but I’ve actually filled it with “odorless” mineral spirits. So far so good. Once I’m done with it, I will drain it for storage. All these new tools and skills will be helpful on future builds!!! ;)

IMG_1323.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine Forum

[Allowencer]

Thanks! Bringing the build inside and a small, tabletop parts washer really changed the cleaning game. I actually got the parts washer idea from your build thread! It’s an invaluable tool! Cheap Amazon purchase - It says “water based” only but I’ve actually filled it with “odorless” mineral spirits. So far so good. Once I’m done with it, I will drain it for storage. All these new tools and skills will be helpful on future builds!!! ;)

IMG_1323.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine Forum

Nice! Appreciate the credit; it's the thing to do though! Allows you to inspect and check things out in the process. Plus, clean parts means no contamination and getting gunk onto other things.

I use a water based cleaning solution in my part cleaners. Easy to dispose of and less corrosive on my hands, etc. Works just as good IMHO.

It's the hoses and rubber components you would need to watch out for, maybe even the pump too, with mineral spirits. It will eat at it.

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk

[SNice]

Cams, lifters, and sealing of the head:

FE527D20-6AB8-40F6-9D75-9302628299C4.jpegE03891CD-2235-449E-B023-FF7A9C14A0A3.jpegAEF8831D-6AAF-45AD-BD56-789339B7E447.jpeg5015C869-983C-465B-A09F-FF614D96CB15.jpeg

[SNice]

Timing, Timing chains, and tensioners.

I’ve had the parts to replace my timing chain and tensioners for over two years now. I just kept putting it off (and I’m glad I did). I’ve never been too worried about it as I already had the updated tensioner and the car seemed to be running without issue. Last time I checked,
My cam adjustment was
At -6.28. I was definitely due for the job!

D160DCF3-A631-4A72-BB5F-557BDD9F1A39.jpegA0ED5B9A-E9D1-47CD-834C-5B126ADE3A4A.jpegF46CD15A-2AB9-42B4-ABDF-D5FCAADC926B.jpegE8B29ECB-DB51-48DD-AFC3-4A868446D297.jpeg247D8360-5508-4208-85AB-521A8D4C5496.jpeg

Pictures were after I had timed it and then rotated by hand to get the marks to line up again. Balance chain links are off but the balance shaft timing is where it needs to be. Inspected camshaft adjuster too. As a preventative measure, I removed the screen on the new cam bridge.

[SNice]

Now that all rotating assemblies are complete and installed, it’s time to start closing her up!

Upper and lower timing covers, harmonic balancer, pcv and lower oil separator. Also installed an 034 rear main seal.

F6DAD719-7837-44F2-9B57-0B2B7E60036C.jpeg8A98515A-B9EE-4DC1-BDC2-4A912C06F1F7.jpeg9D31C404-644E-478A-8F4D-325DFA64EA48.jpeg9DD43D8F-9E17-45F7-9FCF-3A7ADA98E692.jpeg6A87A4AB-5B7E-4829-AC13-C36A5FE1E246.jpeg

Had to remove the engine from the stand to get the rear main seal on. Kept my older pcv and oil separator. Just cleaned them up and added new gaskets.

[SNice]

4CF0C1B1-0BD8-40AA-AE92-6CEE00BBBE37.jpeg31E8095A-583C-45AD-8505-5139B4D1F5D9.jpeg9B1F1161-E60F-4B14-A709-9FF15472E214.jpegFFECFAA0-0FA5-4AA3-99EC-83C6E45AE66C.jpeg187DBEA6-A6C4-455A-8A98-C7B3C9E75F52.jpeg

New gaskets for the water pump. Having the freeze plugs out made the reverse-threaded-little-pulley-bolt installation very easy. New injectors and seals (flex fuel). New gaskets for the acc bracket and oil cooler. Remember my acc bracket was leaking before.

Once this was all installed, I taped off all holes and got her back outside for the final pieces. Very glad I completed all the sensitive parts inside - even though getting the engine down a flight of stairs and out a narrow door was a feat in itself.

Got it back outside and on the hoist. Installed the new freeze plugs. Bottom end is officially sealed!

[Allowencer]

Did you use any green loctite on the freeze plugs?

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk

[SNice]

Did you use any green loctite on the freeze plugs?

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk

I did not! Didn’t even realize loctite came in green! I thought only red and blue - will need to look that up…. Anyway - the ones I took out came out clean with no residue or evidence of sealer, so I pressed the new ones in clean! It was only the two in line with the balance shafts. I did not touch the others -
They’re probably under more pressure as they plug off the oil channels, etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine Forum