B6/B7 S4 Timing Chain FAQ / Information / Discussion Thread

[VR6OhMy]

Well...looks like I may have had some valve contact unfortunately. I just got an endoscope and this is what I came up with.






The middle valve on every cylinder looks like it kissed each piston. The second picture here looks worse than the other 7, but the first picture is representative of every other cylinder. The upper guide was in 6 pieces plus many crumbs so I'm not surprised that it jumped time, but I find it goofy that only the center intake valve is what made contact on every cylinder? Would half of the cylinders have exhaust valves open while the intakes were open on the opposite bank? Another goofy thing is each valve seems completely seated up against the head and no light is visible through the spark plug hole when shining a very bright light down through the topside port.

What would you do in my situation? I'm trying to do things as cheap as possible, but it has to be done proper so if it costs a few more bucks I'd shell them out.

Option #1 Pull heads and replace 1 valve per cylinder, sand top of pistons, replace all valve seals and guides.

Option #2 Replace cylinder heads with used units from a junk yard.

Option #3 Replace entire engine with used unit and refreshed timing guides.

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

Just finished the cam adjuster job last night. Put engine back in car, started and no misfires!!!

[rsrider]

Hey Guys,

Well I MAY have this dreaded timing issue. I have a 2004 B6 which has relatively high miles (175000kms or 108,000 miles). The strange thing for me is that this has effectively come with no warning at all. My car has not used a sceric of oil since its last service 8000kms ago and had barely a 1 second rattle on dead cold start up and nothing at any other time. The oil is also clean as a whistle.

I went to leave work the other night and the car started fine - I warmed it up for a couple of minutes as I always do and while driving down the road at 15kph it suddenly started misfiring and running on what sounded like 5 cylinders. I immediately pulled over to the side of the road and plugged the VAG scanner in that I have. At no point in time did the CEL come on.

It has the following codes:

16684 - Random Multiple cylinder misfire
16685 - Cylinder 1 Misfire
16686 - Cylinder 2 Misfire
16687 - Cylinder 2 Misfire

At no point did I hear any rattling, knocking or any other strange noise before this happened. It is going into the local European private workshop for assessment tomorrow, but I am absolutely dreading the worst.
I had to drive the car about 500m back to work as I had wasn't in the greatest area and wasn't willing to leave it there. I am concerned that I may have caused further damage. Most of the people I have spoken to and the forums I have read with this timing issue have had some sort of warning signs that this might happen (e.g oil useage, rattling, knocking, misfires) - I have had nothing.

Is there anything else that could cause these symptoms I am having?

Thanks

Rory

[SquiddyB6S4]

If you haven't heard a mechanical noise in that time that it failed or after, then I wouldn't fret too much; a cam timing issue should affect cylinders 1-4, not just 1 & 2. Maybe you just have a bad coil pack or something. Let them diagnose and report back. Factory knock sensors are not perfect anyway, and they do fail from time to time.

[badger.]

Couple quick questions on the engine pull:

1. I have a tip (auto) transmission. Do I need to pull the motor AND transmission to do the timing service (JHM Intermediate Kit)?

--- If YES: If I pull motor AND trans, do I need to separate them in order to install the timing components?

2. Are there any guides for the motor pull with a tiptronic? All the ones I've seen (there are a few around) are with manuals. I am concerned I will run into some unforeseen issues. Does anyone have experience on a tip car?

3. Is there a list anywhere of the hardware needed to complete the reassembly? I've heard certain subframe bolts and whatnot might be one-time use but none of the DIYs seem to detail that. (I purchased the Bentley manual this morning so perhaps the answer is in there, however a list from a fellow DIYer would probably be a much faster reference).

________________________________

I think I will be around here more and more asking questions I approach this job. I am planning for early April, full timing service and reinstalled in <10 days, by myself (unless you are in Louisville/Cinci area and want to help for some free beer!!). Since this is my DD, I am trying to be as prepared as possible before starting work.

[rsrider]

Hi Jason thanks for the reply - the only noise I heard was the odd quick rattle on very cold start up. But while driving I hear nothing. Typo in my original post. Codes are:

16684 - Random Multiple cylinder misfire
16685 - Cylinder 1 Misfire
16686 - Cylinder 2 Misfire
16687 - Cylinder 3 Misfire

Nothing about cylinder 4 though, but all on the same bank.

[BCsniper]

Couple quick questions on the engine pull:

1. I have a tip (auto) transmission. Do I need to pull the motor AND transmission to do the timing service (JHM Intermediate Kit)?

--- If YES: If I pull motor AND trans, do I need to separate them in order to install the timing components?

2. Are there any guides for the motor pull with a tiptronic? All the ones I've seen (there are a few around) are with manuals. I am concerned I will run into some unforeseen issues. Does anyone have experience on a tip car?

3. Is there a list anywhere of the hardware needed to complete the reassembly? I've heard certain subframe bolts and whatnot might be one-time use but none of the DIYs seem to detail that. (I purchased the Bentley manual this morning so perhaps the answer is in there, however a list from a fellow DIYer would probably be a much faster reference).

________________________________

I think I will be around here more and more asking questions I approach this job. I am planning for early April, full timing service and reinstalled in <10 days, by myself (unless you are in Louisville/Cinci area and want to help for some free beer!!). Since this is my DD, I am trying to be as prepared as possible before starting work.

1. You don't have to also some may thing it's easier to leave the trans in place because hey don't want to have to pull/re-install that trans from the bottom, plus it's not that hard just to unbolt the driveshaft and trans mounts instead.

2. Not that I know of, but the engine pull should be the same minus the trans mounts. I pulled the motor/trans from a Tip car in a guys driveway and getting the trans to let loose was decently more of a pain in the ass than a manual car, but nothing too drastic.

3. Not sure of that. Subframe bolts are 1-time use but many have re-used them. Also if you leave one side of the subframe bolted up you can avoid having to get an alignment after.


I'm starting to stock pile my parts, so I'll be pulling my motor and doing an overhaul pretty soon also.

[SquiddyB6S4]

Couple quick questions on the engine pull:

1. I have a tip (auto) transmission. Do I need to pull the motor AND transmission to do the timing service (JHM Intermediate Kit)?

--- If YES: If I pull motor AND trans, do I need to separate them in order to install the timing components?

2. Are there any guides for the motor pull with a tiptronic? All the ones I've seen (there are a few around) are with manuals. I am concerned I will run into some unforeseen issues. Does anyone have experience on a tip car?

3. Is there a list anywhere of the hardware needed to complete the reassembly? I've heard certain subframe bolts and whatnot might be one-time use but none of the DIYs seem to detail that. (I purchased the Bentley manual this morning so perhaps the answer is in there, however a list from a fellow DIYer would probably be a much faster reference).

________________________________

I think I will be around here more and more asking questions I approach this job. I am planning for early April, full timing service and reinstalled in <10 days, by myself (unless you are in Louisville/Cinci area and want to help for some free beer!!). Since this is my DD, I am trying to be as prepared as possible before starting work.

1) You don't have to, but it may still be easier. At the very least, you will have to tilt the motor and transmission a bit to get to the bolts, and you'll have to remove the downpipes anyways, so I don't see you saving a whole lot of effort by not pulling the transmission.

2) I haven't seen one either. Good luck. I also haven't bothered searching for one, either . . .

3) I highly recommend that you thoroughly read through the entire procedure at least once in the Bentley manual, if not twice, before putting any tools in your hands. By all means, look at the car for reference, but if you are trying to save time by not reading the manual on something this big and complicated, you are probably shooting yourself in the foot big time. If you had done many engine pulls before on other cars, maybe you don't need to read it thoroughly, but it sounds like you are not a pro at removing and installing engines.

Hi Jason thanks for the reply - the only noise I heard was the odd quick rattle on very cold start up. But while driving I hear nothing. Typo in my original post. Codes are:

16684 - Random Multiple cylinder misfire
16685 - Cylinder 1 Misfire
16686 - Cylinder 2 Misfire
16687 - Cylinder 3 Misfire

Nothing about cylinder 4 though, but all on the same bank.

You're most welcome. I meant are there any sounds it made after you had this issue? You drove it back to work; did it make any sounds then?

[rsrider]

Well - it doesn't sound healthy lol, but I cant hear any loud rattles or knocking - just sounds like its running on less cylinders than normal. Little difficult as it has a Miltek on it which is rather loud. It's just been dropped off to the workshop i'll post back once I have more info.

Thanks

[rsrider]

Ok so had a quick text back from the mechanic. They are still working on it but he says there 'appears' to be an issue with the inlet manifold and its running very rich.......any ideas?

[SquiddyB6S4]

An issue with the inlet manifold? I can't imagine what they mean. My manifold flap was stuck a while back, so I dyno'd it both stuck open and stuck closed, and the car ran perfectly in both situations - obviously missing some power in each mode, of course. I don't know how they would expect to blame a problem with three cylinders on an intake manifold that equally supports all eight cylinders.

If this mechanic does not have a Ross-Tech cable/software, then I would find a different mechanic. Very seriously there.

[rsrider]

Spoke to him on the phone today. Sounds like he hasn't had much time to work on it. He said there was a lot of noise from the inlet manifold and when he disconnected it the car ran a little better but still had a miss. He needs to look into it a bit further to determine where to go to next. He used a scan tool for the timing and said everything appeared to be ok. Will update when I hear next.

[djmilleroh]

Does anyone have an audio of the rattling? I just bought a b7 s4 and I hear a small rattle during a cold start but it goes away after 10/15 seconds. Not sure if this is my paranoia?

[Aundrealti]

Does anyone have an audio of the rattling? I just bought a b7 s4 and I hear a small rattle during a cold start but it goes away after 10/15 seconds. Not sure if this is my paranoia?

I bought my b6 s4 4 months ago.. I didn't know much about it then but I drove it back from P.A. with a misfire..(don't know what I was thinking) 4 hours to be exact and it had little power but made it.. rattle on startup for a couple seconds too..
tensioners were bad... did a full timing job.. There's also another post in here which talks about oil jets.. valley gaskets and what not and I replaced those too
long story short the car runs excellent now.. oh and it also had a clogged pre-cat so I did piggy's while I was at it..
Mine had similar rattling and I believe the replacement of the oil jets solved that problem..
I also notice that if I run low on oil.. I will get an intermediate rattle on cold or warm startups.. which leads me to believe that if there isn't much oil pressure left where those guides are then you tend to get that rattling sound.. check the other thread and hopefully replacing the jets will solve your problem.

[Aundrealti]

Does anyone have an audio of the rattling? I just bought a b7 s4 and I hear a small rattle during a cold start but it goes away after 10/15 seconds. Not sure if this is my paranoia?

btw.. 10/15 seconds is might long.. when mine did it it was 2 seconds tops

[rsrider]

Soooo......it unfortunately was worst case scenario. A guide has completely shit itself and put little bits of plastic around the place. Luckily no engine damage.

Still waiting to confirm exactly what else (if anything) failed and what I will need to replace.

While the engine is out what other things should I be doing?

[Aundrealti]

Soooo......it unfortunately was worst case scenario. A guide has completely shit itself and put little bits of plastic around the place. Luckily no engine damage.

Still waiting to confirm exactly what else (if anything) failed and what I will need to replace.

While the engine is out what other things should I be doing?

I replaced tensioners and guides.. 10 pieces total I believe. FCP Euro.. $700
valley gasket
intake manifold gasket
oil jets
spray jets with the o ring seals
valve cover gaskets
half moons that go with the valve cover gaskets
main seal
that belt in front he motor where the main seal is
optional: upgraded jhm motor mounts and snub mount
optional: the cluch was half worn so I changed that too

also had the motor flushed and replaced the oil with mobil 0-40.. have no idea what was in there before..
I replaced any small seal that looked like it was sweating or leaking...
and also did the piggy mod while the motor was out..

maybe forgetting more but that's what I remember from off the top of my head...

[rsrider]

Thanks for that. Here is the list of parts I had intended to purchase - some of it may be overkill so any advice appreciated.

ECS Standard Timing Chain Kit (Includes all chains, tensioners, guides, bolts etc) - Does not include the two expensive tensioners or the mechanical adjusters
Spark Plugs
Camshaft Position Sensors x 2
EGR Valve Gasket
Front Crank Seal
Rear Crank Seal (Rear Main)
Cam Chain Tensioner Gasket - Cylinders 1-4
Cam Chain Tensioner Gasket - Cylinders 5-8
Camshaft Seal x 2
Cam Chain Tensioner Gasket Right
Cam Chain Tensioner Gasket Left
EGR Valve Adapter Gasket
Both Engine Mounts & Snub Mount
Valve Cover Gasket Set
Accessory Belt & Tensioner
Oil Check Valve Service Kit (includes valley pan gasket, intake manifold gaskets, oil check valves, oil spray valve, oil filter housing gaskets)
Front Subframe Bushes (doing these as he is dropping subframe)

I was thinking of doing fuel injector seals also - or can I do these anytime?

[badger.]

Similar questions here. Going with the JHM intermediate kit.

1. Will I lose any trans fluid during and engine+trans pull and timing work? (other than when dc'ing cooler lines to the radiator)

2. With the intermediate kit (does not come with the control adjuster assembly) do I still need the gaskets for these?
--- "cam chain tensioner gasket cyl 1-4 & cyl 4-8"

3. Do the timing covers require any sealant for reinstall?



...anyone want to rent me the timing tools?

[TarlCabot]

3. Do the timing covers require any sealant for reinstall?

...anyone want to rent me the timing tools?

yes... i can let you know when mine are returned and ready to ship if you dont find some sooner

[yoshibishi]

yes... i can let you know when mine are returned and ready to ship if you dont find some sooner

Wait.. did you have your car on autotrader recently?

[TarlCabot]

no... NEVER, if you look in the 25q thread, the guys are talking about that... it's got a bad motor iirc and their asking almost 17k

[yoshibishi]

no... NEVER, if you look in the 25q thread, the guys are talking about that... it's got a bad motor iirc and their asking almost 17k

It was around 20k when I bought my S4. Thank god I didn't pull the trigger on that then!

[guardsredcoupe]

By the way, my engine died due to an injector that was stuck open and washed down a cylinder wall. So, I have all my timing chain components available for sale. Less than 10k miles on them. Send me a PM if interested.

[VR6OhMy]

Anyone know what the torque specs are for the T30 bolts and studs that secure the tensioners and studs that hold the guides?

I just found some of the specs. Just need the tensioners now.

[gcoy]

Here is a Very informative thread running now.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...k-on-the-Clock!

It looks like we have a new O-ring seal to add to the parts list. #N 906 384 02

(see post #34 thru #44)

[Markie93]

I have a 2005 A6 with the 4.2L V8. I know for sure it has chains but was wondering if it was the same as this one.

[TarlCabot]

I have a 2005 A6 with the 4.2L V8. I know for sure it has chains but was wondering if it was the same as this one.

chains mean the same ;) only different engine is RS4

[Vertol]

By the way, my engine died due to an injector that was stuck open and washed down a cylinder wall. So, I have all my timing chain components available for sale. Less than 10k miles on them. Send me a PM if interested.

I'm curious about this...could you elaborate on this? What damage did this cause? I have never heard of this.

[guardsredcoupe]

I'm curious about this...could you elaborate on this? What damage did this cause? I have never heard of this.

Something blew out inside the injector so that the fuel was flowing right through it. This allowed the fuel to dump continuously through the injector into the cylinder and wash past the rings. This diluted the lubricating effect of the oil on the cylinder walls and without enough lubrication the rings scored the cylinder walls beyond repair. When it happened, the engine stumbled and the check engine light came on, but I figured that it was just the famous coil pack failure and drove home. Wrong.

[sdmad33]

https://youtu.be/BhK0aQMGisg

Hello All,
New member, first post. I am not particularly knowledgeable about auto mechanics but am not a total dumbass either. I do not work on my own car(s) but know the general workings/engineering. Anyway, I am having some issues with my 2005 B6 S4 MT6 (120,000 miles). Above is a short video (I hope...not sure I did it right) so y'all can hear the ticking. It started about a week ago as a very faint sound that I wasn't even sure I was hearing. Within a few days it got worse and the video was taken last night (7 or 8 days after first noticing something was amiss). No roughness or bucking while driving. No misfiring. Aside from the irksome and incessant ticking, no other symptoms at all. From the threads I have read, the prognosis seems very likely to be grim. My ticking sounds very similar to a few other ticking videos I found, where the diagnosis was a timing chain tensioner issue (the other 'most-likely' scenario that I saw is a faulty intake manifold flapper?). Can anyone confirm or deny this? If that is indeed the issue and the engine needs to come out, I ask y'all if you think the cost is justifiable (about 8K left on my loan), taking into consideration that my sick baby is also burning oil (approx. 1-quart every 200-300 miles and sometimes needs a quart after as little as 100 (harder driven) miles)? I suppose the question is... Does the ticking issue have anything to do with the oil consumption or vice versa? Meaning, if I drop $5K (or whatever) on the tensioner and/or cam adjusters repair(s), will the underlying oil issue simply cause the same problem again? Even if the answer is no (that the one issue does not have anything to do with the other), I have a feeling most will tell me that it is idiotic to sink that much cash into an already 'over the hill', oil burning engine ...which deep down I know and agree with but damn it, I love this badass car! Please advise :( What would you do?!

Thank you so very kindly in advance,
Shawn

P.s. Pretty sure it is not relevant but earlier this month my CEL popped on and car went into limp-mode. I drove it (very gently) approx. 6 miles, directly to my shop where they replaced the shot coil, all plugs and performed a fuel injection servicing. She drove & sounded like a dream (albeit a typically oil guzzling one) for the couple of weeks leading up to my current situation.

P.s.s. One last quick question... I've been using 0W-40, as per the manual. I've read that 5W-40 is also acceptable and some say better. Given the info I've provided on my car, what is the best oil to use?! Is there an actual, definitive answer to that question or is it all just opinion? I just want to baby her wherever I can...

THANKS AGAIN!!

[badger.]

Video is set to private

[S4Polak]

good post

[TEB]

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[Adubinetsky]

I heard the b7 has less problems with the timing chain/tensioners issue. Anyone know how true this is?

[Sickws6]

So where is a good manual or written process to follow for doing timing job?

[badger.]

The bentley manual goes through it in a muddy way (~$100 online).

There is a pretty thorough engine pull DIY linked all over the place here that covers the engine pull for a 6MT. But it can be mostly used for a TIP car (worked for me in conjunction with the bentley and some common car sense)

No one has done a full DIY type writeup for actually doing the timing setup. Depending what you replace and how you diassemble things will change what steps are needed. I have a very rough draft of my engine pull and timing work (for a TIP) but I have not had any time recently to work on it.

But if you do get into it there are lots of people here and other forums that can help you through specific steps.

[Sickws6]

The bentley manual goes through it in a muddy way (~$100 online).

There is a pretty thorough engine pull DIY linked all over the place here that covers the engine pull for a 6MT. But it can be mostly used for a TIP car (worked for me in conjunction with the bentley and some common car sense)

No one has done a full DIY type writeup for actually doing the timing setup. Depending what you replace and how you diassemble things will change what steps are needed. I have a very rough draft of my engine pull and timing work (for a TIP) but I have not had any time recently to work on it.

But if you do get into it there are lots of people here and other forums that can help you through specific steps.

Cool, sent you a PM

[bigredx24x]

This might be relevant for this thread, found this on YouTube:

Cold start sound before timing chain service: http://youtu.be/gNYWIenzqbg

Sound after service: http://youtu.be/kRHr1ZimhA4


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sickws6]

Here is a vid of the damage via noise.