Angular's "Doing It The Hard Way" GT build thread.

[Angular]

Introduction and background...

While some people may look at my AZ join date and think of me as a "noob", the fact is that I've owned my 2002 S4 Avant since April of 2003 and logged about 100K miles in the driver seat. The fact is I have designed, built and tuned a GT based turbo system back in my VW days, so I have at least a little bit of a clue about what projects like this entail. The fact is I have a funny little problem called "DIY disease". Whether it's building giant subwoofers, high end road bikes, PCs, or turbocharged cars... sometimes I get a little carried away, and sometimes I wind up doing it THE HARD WAY. So I think that's the perfect theme for this project and build thread!

I bought my S4 shortly after becoming a father and deciding to sell my Honda CBR1100XX (crotch rocket). The '88 Scirocco 16V 2.0 turbo wasn't much of a family car and frankly I was just plain sick FWD and wheelspin. Having owned Passat wagons in the past, I liked the idea of an Avant: a car that's practical, versatile, relatively safe (ABS, airbags, etc.) and somewhat of a sleeper with some real performance potential. So it wasn't long before the B5 S4 bubbled to the top of my list and became the inevitable car of choice for my puporses: a twin-turbo all-wheel-drive 300HP grocery getter. What's not to love?! I wound up locating a Santorin 6MT Avant in Wisconsin with just 22K miles on it and so I flew there to buy it and drive it home. I managed to get the car home without completely destroying it but not before a large truck tire retread appeared out of the darkness on I-90 and did $2500+ worth of damage to the front end.

"Old & busted"


That quickly put me on the path to getting an RS4 bumper, which put me on the path to getting RS4 front fenders, and so on... and so on... until finally I wound up doing the whole bloody widebody conversion with a lot of encouragement from the hooligans on AudiWorld, Josh Decker @ Achtuning sourcing the parts, and Queen City Auto Rebuild of Redmond, WA, doing the body work.

"The New Hotness"


That pretty much wiped me out financially, so I concluded the performance mods would have to be minimal. I'd just chip it and drive it until the K03s blew. Well, to make a long story a little less long... those pesky little K03s never blew! But one of them is leaking a bit of oil into the intake and my clutch started slipping, so finally...

THE TIME HAS COME.

My S4 as it is today after 7 years of daily driving since the widebody conversion:


Now if I wuz a smart man...

I'd just buy a VAST GT kit or drop the car off at AMD and get it all TiAL'ed up. But due to the dreaded disease I just gotta be "different". My power goals aren't all that lofty but I've been wanting to upgrade to GT turbos of some kind for a long time and decided that old school journal bearing turbos were out of the question. In a nutshell my performance goals are: better than K04 power with good efficiency and decent spool. If I could make 450 AWHP on straight 92 octane pump with a healthy torque curve, I'd be pretty happy. I think I'll be pretty happy no matter what, but the fun part will be seeing what kind of power to boost ratio and spool characterstics I can get out of this build. After studying compressor maps like a mental patient and flirting with the idea of BorgWarner EFR or TiAL turbos, I finally decided on the GT2859R because it has a high efficiency compressor stage that was designed for an engine not entirely unlike the 2.7T: the 2.6 liter twin-turbo 6-cylinder Skyline R34. I believe this particular turbo offers the greatest overall efficiency among GT25 and GT28 models capable of 30-35 lb/min airflow from surge line to choke line. It also uses a smaller trim version of the improved NS-111 turbine wheel (compared to GT25) which in theory should offer decent spool and exhaust side efficiency.

Current mods:

RS4 Avant Widebody Conversion
Flik Artic 18x8.5 wheels spaced to ET20
255/35/18 Toyo T1-R tires
Stasis Street Sport coilovers
AMS chip
Forge 3" exhaust

Planned mods and parts list for "the build": (TBD = To Be Determined)

Turbochargers: Garrett GT2859R
Exhaust manifolds: Custom tubular, 304 SS, Schedule 10 pipe, CNC'd flanges by Sam@BMCRace
Downpipes: TBD... Custom/DIY or VAST or ? with V-band connections & high flow cats.
Cat back: Custom/DIY 3.5" single 304 SS 16 ga
Intercoolers: Wagner RS4 w/carbon fiber shrouds
Inlet piping: TBD... Custom/DIY or ?
Bi-pipes: TBD... Custom/DIY or VAST/ARD or ?
Cold air intake: TBD
Fueling & tune: AMD/EPL with single in-tank Bosch 044
Meth: Aquamist HFS-3
Clutch: TBD... CM FX850 or ??
Clutch slave: VAST metal slave unit w/stainless line

Other upgrades & replacement parts:

Control arms: 034 adjustable uppers & street density lowers
Tie rods: 034 heavy duty tie rod ends
Engine mounts: OEM RS4
Snub mount: VAST
Cooling: VAST medium flow EFK

Wish list:

JHM solid shifter kit
Transmission mounts
Rear diff mounts
350mm Cayenne Caliper BBK up front
Some kind of BBK for the rear
Forgestar F14 18x9 wheels

[Angular]

Parts is parts:


Brain lube:


$2500+ in recent tool purchases... welder, bandsaw, accessories:


LET THERE BE LIGHT. And there was light:


Ready to weld! (easier said than done... that's for damn sure)


Random turbo pics:

[NYEuroTuner]

Nice build. Cant wait to see it finished, it seems everyone is getting a Wagon these days, after seeing a few built I wont lie I am starting to favor the Avants as well.

To your build, dont forget to take lots of pics and for gods sake take some good videos as well..lol

[nefkntym]

Very nice, Avant is the way to go. I can appreciate the DIY attitude. I am the same way, I am getting ready to start my build in a few weeks. I still need to get a welder too.

That's a nice avatar you got there George :)

[Angular]

Nice build. Cant wait to see it finished, it seems everyone is getting a Wagon these days, after seeing a few built I wont lie I am starting to favor the Avants as well.

The nice thing about Avants is that they can haul nearly anything... groceries, kids, bicycles, 55" LCD HDTVs, coworkers, 400+ pounds of MDF...



... and most importantly... haul ass too!

[MAKK]

Good luck with the build buddy! Let me know if you need any fab help, I can always come over on a weekend and lend a hand.

[Angular]

Thanks, Scott... I might just do that!

Forgot to mention that for "Phase 1" of this project, there are not going to be any mods done to the engine. It's a big enough project as it is so I'm going to follow the ol' "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" rule as far as that is concerned. The plan is to tune the car to a level that is safe with the stock rods and see how long I stay happy with that amount of power. If I decide I need more, more, MOAR... I'll probably buy a used engine that I can tear down and convert to 3L as time & money permit.

[NYEuroTuner]

The nice thing about Avants is that they can haul nearly anything... groceries, kids, bicycles, 55" LCD HDTVs, coworkers, 400+ pounds of MDF...

... and most importantly... haul ass too!

Indeed, Avants are def growing on me.

That's a nice avatar you got there George :)

hehe..

[eastcoastjettin]

subscribed!

[gearhead1186]

glad you started a build thread. ill be following closely. too bad your on the other side of the country. sounds like we'd get along pretty well.

[Evilevo]

Looks good man! Can't wait to see how those GT2859R turbos do, they seem like a decent option.

Shameless Plug: If you are looking for a twin disc and want a Tilton, I still have mine for sale.

[Jason@Addict]

and it begins...

[AudiA4_20T]

I must say, when you first started asking everyone and their Mom questions about inducer sizes and turbine wheels I thought you were all talk, but this is going to be a cool project

[Angular]

Thanks. I know I've irked a few people here on AZ with my obsessing over turbine wheels and compressor maps and whatnot, but I felt it was necessary to do as much research as possible before embarking upon a $15K+ project. If somebody tells me "TiAL is the best" I'm going to ask why that is and a lot of other potentially annoying questions. It's not that I don't respect the opinions of people who have tons more experience building and tuning 2.7T cars than I do. I just have a need to know how & why things work or perform the way they do. I'm never satisfied when people state things as "fact" without little to no explanation or data to back up the claim. Attitudes aside, that kind of thing doesn't help me learn as much as I'd like to learn.

That said... I do very much appreciate all the information, advice and encouragement I've gotten from folks here on AZ including Johnny Bravo, Jason@AMD, gearhead1186, Jibberjive, EvilEvo and many others!

[jibberjive]

Looking forward to it!

[Angular]

Looking forward to it!

Me too! But I think I just had a little setback...



A new Audi has joined the stable. I call the color "Arrest Me" Red. The wife gets the shiny new-to-us A4, and I get to drive the ol' Honda Accord until my project is done.

[michael66899]

Nice pick up man I've always been a big fan of the B7s. I'd like to pick up a B7 Avant when I graduate as a nice DD, those little 2.0T are pretty cool motors and respond very well to a mild turbo upgrade. Also just wanted to say sorry again for bailing on those flanges, I'm getting mine made out of mild anyways.

[Angular]

Can't say I'm happy about being out the $235 until I can find another buyer for the 2nd set of flanges, but I'm not gonna dwell on it.

I'd get another Avant and a six speed manual in a heartbeat if the car was for me, but my goal here was to convert my wife over to the "dark side". I had to confess that Audis aren't quite as reliable and maintenance free as her trusty old Honda Accord, but the Quattro all-wheel-drive was a major selling point for her and she really likes the red! I like the 2.0T of course and certainly don't mind a newish Audi sedan to share on the weekends. It was a pretty good deal too... knock on wood. 66K miles, 2nd owner, APR software, HID fogs, and a fresh set of Blizzaks included for a little over $15K. Borrowed $12K, so it cost me about $4625 out of pocket for the difference including tax.

Now I'm just waiting on some tax forms from my employer so I can file my return and get a pretty substantial refund from the IRS. After that I'll be able to move forward with some of the bigger S4 project expenditures like fueling, clutch and exhaust. Depending on how the welding/fabrication aspect of this project goes, I would be very happy if it was done in June of this year.

[Mantis]

Me too! But I think I just had a little setback...



A new Audi has joined the stable. I call the color "Arrest Me" Red. The wife gets the shiny new-to-us A4, and I get to drive the ol' Honda Accord until my project is done.

That's funny, same thing happened to me twice. I should be putting extra cash into my A6 single turbo project, but when a good deal comes up (wife's A4)(Imola for me) I just can't say no. There is not a day that I don't look at those cars and think how more badass the A6 project would be without them in my life.

[DonnieDark0]

love this thread! subscribed

[Angular]

I don't know if this represents progress so much as it does 10 pounds of shit in a 2 pound bag (garage), but a few days ago getting both cars into the garage at the same time was unthinkable!



I still have a lot of cleaning and organizing to do before the S4 goes up on jackstands for the motor pull. I'd guess I'm a few weeks out still.

[Angular]

Getting back to the actual build...

I'm still undecided on the clutch. Any opinions? Leaning toward the CM FX850 but $2500 is a pretty big chunk of change, and I am told even that clutch won't last very long before it needs a rebuild. And the "bright side" is that it costs only $400 in parts for the first rebuild. I'm more inclined to go with the kevlar discs, or whatever it is that's more street friendly, which will probably shorten the service interval.

So what other options are there that will hold the power/torque, last more than 20K miles, be easy to drive, and not cost an arm/leg?? This isn't a track car and I will only be making as much power/torque as the stock rods will allow for the first go 'round. Is a single disc clutch completely out of the question?

I am still waiting for more info on the SPEC twin carbon clutch 034 is developing.

[Evilevo]

Getting back to the actual build...

I'm still undecided on the clutch. Any opinions? Leaning toward the CM FX850 but $2500 is a pretty big chunk of change, and I am told even that clutch won't last very long before it needs a rebuild. And the "bright side" is that it costs only $400 in parts for the first rebuild. I'm more inclined to go with the kevlar discs, or whatever it is that's more street friendly, which will probably shorten the service interval.

So what other options are there that will hold the power/torque, last more than 20K miles, be easy to drive, and not cost an arm/leg?? This isn't a track car and I will only be making as much power/torque as the stock rods will allow for the first go 'round. Is a single disc clutch completely out of the question?

I am still waiting for more info on the SPEC twin carbon clutch 034 is developing.

You can run a Southbend stage 4 extreme like I am. Rated for 750tq.

Or if you want a twin that'll take abuse, my fresh rebuilt Tilton and flywheel for. $1500.

But seriously, I need to get rid of this thing so I can have money to finish my car. Ha.

[AudiA4_20T]

Question, why do a $15k widebody and run $500 wheels?

[Angular]

The wheels were $185 each at the time and the answer to your question is: the purchase of the car and the subsequent widebody conversion wiped me out financially for a while, so I had to cut a few corners. I actually think it's a pretty good looking wheel for the price and affordable 18x8.5 wheel options were limited.

The real question is, why am I still running them?

[AudiA4_20T]

The wheels were $185 each at the time and the answer to your question is: the purchase of the car and the subsequent widebody conversion wiped me out financially for a while, so I had to cut a few corners. Why I'm still running them, I have no idea.

Understand. makes sense. I just think some properly fit 18" silver Iforged (or something similar) wheels would really make the car perfect

[Angular]

Damn, you quoted me before the edit! Haha.

You can run a Southbend stage 4 extreme like I am. Rated for 750tq.

Or if you want a twin that'll take abuse, my fresh rebuilt Tilton and flywheel for. $1500.

But seriously, I need to get rid of this thing so I can have money to finish my car. Ha.

How's the drivability (engagement) and expected lifespan on the SB Stage 4 extreme? Also, can you a'splain to me again why you're not running the Tilton twin? I probably read about it a couple months ago but I forget. (Sorry. Old age.)

[Angular]

Understand. makes sense. I just think some properly fit 18" silver Iforged (or something similar) wheels would really make the car perfect

I hear ya. Once again I'm at a point where finances are limited and I have other big ticket items like the clutch I have to address first. I'm leaning toward a set of Forgestar F14 wheels right now because A> aesthetically they're acceptable, B> available in custom bolt pattern & offset (ET20, please!), very lightweight (18.2 pounds for 18x10), and affordable at $1400 a set. Value wise, they seem hard to beat.

Wish they were still available with the machined face, as in this picture:

[jibberjive]

Those wheels could look good, just make sure they're way wider than 8.5" ha.

[Angular]

Basically the choices for ET20 are 18x9 or 18x10. Not sure if 10" wide and ET20 would fit right and look right, though. I'm not going to have the rims stick out beyond the RS4 fender arches, nor am I going for the "stretched" (tire) look. I'm 40 years old. Does that explain it?

[shorterthanrich]

Wow man, subscribed!

[wdbdy2000s4]

Basically the choices for ET20 are 18x9 or 18x10. Not sure if 10" wide and ET20 would fit right and look right, though. I'm not going to have the rims stick out beyond the RS4 fender arches, nor am I going for the "stretched" (tire) look. I'm 40 years old. Does that explain it?

18x10 ET20 would probably be the best of those 2 options. An 18x9 ET20 fits on a stock body so you would be tucked pretty hard on the RS4 fenders.

[Capt. Obvious]

Basically the choices for ET20 are 18x9 or 18x10. Not sure if 10" wide and ET20 would fit right and look right, though. I'm not going to have the rims stick out beyond the RS4 fender arches, nor am I going for the "stretched" (tire) look. I'm 40 years old. Does that explain it?

18x10 et20 all around with 255/35s will be pretty much perfect for the look you're going for on your car. They'll be fairly flush with the fenders without poking or rubbing (especially since your car isn't lowered a whole lot) and you'll have plenty of meat on the tires for the power you plan to put down.

[michael66899]

^255s are weak I'll be running 255s on my narrow body, 275s or bust!

[Capt. Obvious]

255s are weak I'll be running 255s on my narrow body

You too, huh?

[Angular]

18x10 et20 all around with 255/35s will be pretty much perfect for the look you're going for on your car. They'll be fairly flush with the fenders without poking or rubbing (especially since your car isn't lowered a whole lot) and you'll have plenty of meat on the tires for the power you plan to put down.

Thanks for the input. Sounds like that's the way to go. Wasn't sure if there is any potential issue with rubbing on the uprights, etc. Wouldn't want to go beyond (lower than) ET20.

^255s are weak I'll be running 255s on my narrow body, 275s or bust!

The problem with 275s on an 18 inch rim is there aren't any tire sizes readily available that are the correct diameter/rolling radius. Also this is daily driven street car, not a track car. Steering is heavy enough as it is with 255s and ET20. I'll have to just wait and see how bad the wheelspin is once the new turbos are in. Then I might be changing my tune about the 275s.

[Capt. Obvious]

Thanks for the input. Sounds like that's the way to go. Wasn't sure if there is any potential issue with rubbing on the uprights, etc. Wouldn't want to go beyond (lower than) ET20.

You won't even be close to the uprights.

I'll be running 18x10 et33 in the front on my car and THAT'S close to the uprights.

[DolphinV8]

ET20 will be fine.


I run 265s without any problem, and I think I can even run 275/30/19 Conti DWS.

My 19x10 ET20. Looks like I can still go lower on the offset? et18 maybe?

[WMi_S4]

You won't even be close to the uprights.

I'll be running 18x10 et33 in the front on my car and THAT'S close to the uprights.

You are NB avant, correct? Wdbdy, I have seen you making several posts (mainly on QW) about running 18x9 and 18x10 wheels on your NB sedan, from the noggy pic you posted on QW it didn't look like a whole lot of pulling to the fenders was done (compared to say Das' car for example)...how much are you pulling your fenders to fit that wide of a wheel on a stock body S4 (Capt Obvious, same ? if you can provide some insight). Are you sacrificing some rub on the fenders to run such a wide wheel, do you drive like a granny to prevent rubbing or are you pulling the hell out of the fenders?

[wdbdy2000s4]

You are NB avant, correct? Wdbdy, I have seen you making several posts (mainly on QW) about running 18x9 and 18x10 wheels on your NB sedan, from the noggy pic you posted on QW it didn't look like a whole lot of pulling to the fenders was done (compared to say Das' car for example)...how much are you pulling your fenders to fit that wide of a wheel on a stock body S4 (Capt Obvious, same ? if you can provide some insight). Are you sacrificing some rub on the fenders to run such a wide wheel, do you drive like a granny to prevent rubbing or are you pulling the hell out of the fenders?

That blue car wasn't mine. My fenders are more in line with Das's car. I don't really drive it though so rubbing isn't an issue. haha

18x9 ET30-35 will fit pretty easily on a narrow body. You might have to do a very minor roll on the fenders though to go super low.
18x10 ET25-ET30 will fit depending on which uprights you have, but you'll need to do a fairly serious roll. I'll post a few pictures in the staggered thread of test fitting 10s and 11s on a stock body when I get home later. I've thread jacked enough here.