Stage 2 Dyno Results: 2014 GIAC V1 and V2, 2014 Revo, 2012 APR

[jran76]

We had four stage 2 cars get together for a dyno today. Testing was done on a Mustang AWD at PRT Performance in Lewisville, TX. First, let me say, a dyno is a tool, and a very imperfect one if not used correctly. In general, I don't put a lot of weight into it unless it is the same car, same dyno, and there is a good baseline. In this case, we don't have all that, so take it for what you want. I think there are a few things you can take from this, but at the end of the day, it was four different cars that were all slightly different.

Today was the coolest day we have had in DFW in about 6 months. 60 degrees, 82% humidity, and 30.1 barometer. DA was around 1200. Results shown are corrected numbers. All four cars made 3 passes. Highest is shown. First two runs were pretty close, and the last run on all four cars dropped 5-10 AWHP (none of the cars had coolant systems). All cars on 93 octane gas and tunes.


Milk242: 2014 S4 DSG, GIAC V1 stage 2, AWE pulley, Eurocode intake
308 AWHP, 315 AWTQ
Timing was really low. Topped out at 11 degrees with 2-3 degrees being pulled at higher RPM's.


kappax12: 2014 S5 DSG, GIAC V2 stage 2, AWE pulley, Roc-Euro intake, GIAC DSG tune
358 AWHP, 330 AWTQ
Timing was up to 17-18 degrees, but was pulling 5-6 degrees up top.


Spawn350: 2014 S4 DSG, Revo stage 2, AWE pulley, Eurocode intake, Revo DSG tune
358 AWHP, 345 AWTQ
Timing was high at 21-22 degrees max, and it was not pulling ANY timing on any runs (not sure why it was not making more power).

jran76: 2012 S4 DSG, APR stage 2, APR pulley, CTS intake, AWE exhaust (my exhaust has a blown center muffler right now that may be restricting flow a little).
349 AWHP, 335 AWTQ
Timing was up to 17-18 degrees, with 2-3 degrees being pulled.



Conclusions:
**GIAC V1 on the 2014 is a joke
**GIAC V2 is a big improvement
**Revo on the 2014 has the highest timing values, and none being pulled (aggressive for sure, unsafe, I don't know...)
**My APR car is a little low, and my times at the strip bare this out too. The blown AWE exhaust is not helping. I have a new muffler on the way from AWE and it will be installed next week. I also have an AMS cooling kit that will go on soon, with a follow up dyno.
**The Revo DSG tune allows the car to avoid the kick down switch altogether, stock and GIAC (?) do not.

[drob23]

Awesome job, I think this definitively closes the book on the V1 stg 2 software for the 2014's being insufficient. Wonder how APR stg 2 compares on the 2014, cause now those are the customers who are SOL (unless they buy Revo in addition ).

[saxon]

That revo tune looks great

Did you log knock?

[jran76]

Awesome job, I think this definitively closes the book on the V1 stg 2 software for the 2014's being insufficient. Wonder how APR stg 2 compares on the 2014, cause now those are the customers who are SOL (unless they buy Revo in addition ).

I agree about GIAC. Kudos to them for stepping up and fixing their issues. I wish we had a 2014 APR car, but I have to guess they are having similar issues (maybe not as extreme, but something is up).

That revo tune looks great

Did you log knock?

I did in terms of timing pull. GIAC V2 had the most at -6 degrees. My APR and GIAC V1 had around -3. Revo had none that I saw. I had to head out to do other things so I only had a couple minutes to review the logs and post....

One other interesting thing, both GIAC tunes seemed to run richer than APR and Revo. Both were spewing copious amounts of black smoke every 1000 RPMs or so where the APR and Revo car had no noticeable exhaust particulates.

[SwankPeRFection]

GIAC plots are like the Rocky Mountains. And their fuel curves are complete shit too. If measurement was done the same on all the cars, no thanks GIAC! Learn 2 tune.

[jran76]

GIAC plots are like the Rocky Mountains. And their fuel curves are complete shit too. If measurement was done the same on all the cars, no thanks GIAC! Learn 2 tune.

All A/F readings were done with an Innovative probe in the left inside tailpipe.

[SwankPeRFection]

All A/F readings were done with an Innovative probe in the left inside tailpipe.

Yep, so I'd expect the same results if all the cars still had factory CATs in them. i.e. nobody can blame A/F ratios being off because of that. If they are all measured the same way and with the same converters in them, then I expect the curves to be as expected. The fact that GIAC's curves don't go open wen you floor it is not good in my book, but I'm sure Austin will step in here and say something to defend it. Whatever either way... I prefer to see certain things on readouts and nice flat open loop fuel curves under boost and power lines that don't fluctuate all over the place. The GIAC plots are anything but that.

[milk242]

giac v3???

[spawn350]

The dyno is confirming what my butt already told me - my car is finally running like I had expected it to after being tuned. I ran a 3.82 0-60 at 82 degrees in the same place I was running 4.6 on GIAC Stage 2 V2. For some reason, the V2 never "took" on my car - likely the tuner or some other variable. I felt an immediate difference when I went to REVO.

All that said, GIAC cars are setting FAST times at the track and the cars with V2 that are responding well to them seem to be money well spent.

I don't know enough about A/F to comment, but my smooth lines do make me happy :D.

[d.p]

Why are Revo and APR smooth and GIAC plots up and down?

Also GIAC should just throw stage2 v1 in the trash and never speak of it again.

[AuditsaF]

Gotta love Revo!

[Acejam]

Thank you for this information. Looks like Revo is back on top again.

If I get a tune anytime soon, I know who I'll be choosing for my 2014.

[AKPS4]

I
Questioned the plot from GIAC a long time ago when it was first released. Forget the response. Could probably do a search and find it but if I recall correctly it wasn't anything helpful.

[Acejam]

Anyone else find the AFR graphs very interesting? Maybe I'm reading things wrong, but both GIAC graphs appear to show noticeably leaner AFR's towards the beginning of each pull.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[martziniuk]

So why is the Revo map giving 21-22 degrees timing but no pull??
Hmmm

[saxon]

So why is the Revo map giving 21-22 degrees timing but no pull??
Hmmm

That's why I asked for knock logs.

If you look at the graph it seems to be running great, if there was knock etc it would absolutely show in the graphs like the awe tune

[Jgm22]

The dyno is confirming what my butt already told me - my car is finally running like I had expected it to after being tuned. I ran a 3.82 0-60 at 82 degrees in the same place I was running 4.6 on GIAC Stage 2 V2. For some reason, the V2 never "took" on my car - likely the tuner or some other variable. I felt an immediate difference when I went to REVO.

All that said, GIAC cars are setting FAST times at the track and the cars with V2 that are responding well to them seem to be money well spent.

I don't know enough about A/F to comment, but my smooth lines do make me happy :D.

Spawn350

have you taken you car to the track yet?

btw- awesome job guys, thanks for taking the time and sharing this info

[Skywagon]

To all that took part in the dyno day thank you. I know nothing about GIAC. However, after switching to Revo and their DSG tune from APR, no DSG tune, I can't help but say REVO is the best of the two.

[SwankPeRFection]

Anyone else find the AFR graphs very interesting? Maybe I'm reading things wrong, but both GIAC graphs appear to show noticeably leaner AFR's towards the beginning of each pull.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, you're not alone, see my post.

[SwankPeRFection]

That's why I asked for knock logs.

If you look at the graph it seems to be running great, if there was knock etc it would absolutely show in the graphs like the awe tune

People seem to be under the impression that knock evens and only the ECU retarding timing is what causes power spikes and dips. In reality, even if there were no safeties and bad detonation, you'd also see a non-smooth power curve from the detonation events themselves. It won't be as pronounced, but if knock is bad enough, it'll feel/look like crap on the power curve.

Just to be clear, I'm not disagreeing with you, just adding on.

[AzWildCat04]

interesting stuff! I'll be going back to dyno the v2 next week. It seems a hell of a lot more powerful. I dyno'd 321hp and 330tq on the v1 file.

[spawn350]

Spawn350

have you taken you car to the track yet?

btw- awesome job guys, thanks for taking the time and sharing this info

Not yet. I plan to go the next time the OP goes. That said, I was a lot more concerned about 0-60 than 1/4 mile.

[jran76]

Not yet. I plan to go the next time the OP goes. That said, I was a lot more concerned about 0-60 than 1/4 mile.

October 25th and November 7th are the only two open dates for the rest of the year. I think I am out of town on October 25th, so let's plan on the November 7th date.

[jran76]

I got a chance to go through the logs in a little more detail. Here are some observations:

*The GIAC V2 car make a little more boost than Revo or APR. Up to 1 PSI more in some cases. The GIAC V2 car topped out at just over 16 PSI. The Revo and APR cars topped out at right at 15 PSI. Some of that is the AWE pulley being slightly smaller, but the Revo car has the AWE pulley too. So, the rest would be attributed to tuning or other hardware differences. The GIAC V2 car has the Roc-Euro intake which definitely helps over the Eurocode intake on the Revo car.

*As mentioned, the Revo car has a lot more timing. It actually topped out at 22.85 degrees which is a lot even on good 93 octane. Again, there was no timing being pulled due to knock where every log I have seen has some timing being pulled up top. Very interesting. The one thing Revo did do instead was bleed off boost at higher RPM's. On the first run when intake temps were pretty low (60's C) it was pretty minimal, but as temps went up on subsequent runs (up to upper 70's C) they bled off up to 5% still with no timing being pulled. I have seen this in some other Revo logs, and it looks like they rely more on bypassing boost versus using timing pull. This would explain why it is making similar power to the other tunes with so much more absolute timing. I am not a tuner, so I can't comment on the validity of this type of approach. It seems less safe, but there were no indications that there were any issues on the Revo car.

*The Roc-Euro and CTS intake show a little more Air Mass than the two cars with the Eurocode intakes. Up to 75 kg/h more. Roc-Euro and CTS get up to 1325 max where the Eurocode tops out at around 1250. This is pretty much the limit of what I have seen with the stock air box in this environment (my stock air box with APR intake tube and AWE filter showed the same).

[Skywagon]

FWIW, the most I ever saw on my APR tune was 15.9 psi, using my P3 gauge with Euro code boost tap. The most with the REVO 16.5. 89F, Baro 29.97

[saxon]

I've seen almost 18lbs in 40°weather with apr

[SwankPeRFection]

I got a chance to go through the logs in a little more detail. Here are some observations:

*The GIAC V2 car make a little more boost than Revo or APR. Up to 1 PSI more in some cases. The GIAC V2 car topped out at just over 16 PSI. The Revo and APR cars topped out at right at 15 PSI. Some of that is the AWE pulley being slightly smaller, but the Revo car has the AWE pulley too. So, the rest would be attributed to tuning or other hardware differences. The GIAC V2 car has the Roc-Euro intake which definitely helps over the Eurocode intake on the Revo car.

*As mentioned, the Revo car has a lot more timing. It actually topped out at 22.85 degrees which is a lot even on good 93 octane. Again, there was no timing being pulled due to knock where every log I have seen has some timing being pulled up top. Very interesting. The one thing Revo did do instead was bleed off boost at higher RPM's. On the first run when intake temps were pretty low (60's C) it was pretty minimal, but as temps went up on subsequent runs (up to upper 70's C) they bled off up to 5% still with no timing being pulled. I have seen this in some other Revo logs, and it looks like they rely more on bypassing boost versus using timing pull. This would explain why it is making similar power to the other tunes with so much more absolute timing. I am not a tuner, so I can't comment on the validity of this type of approach. It seems less safe, but there were no indications that there were any issues on the Revo car.

*The Roc-Euro and CTS intake show a little more Air Mass than the two cars with the Eurocode intakes. Up to 75 kg/h more. Roc-Euro and CTS get up to 1325 max where the Eurocode tops out at around 1250. This is pretty much the limit of what I have seen with the stock air box in this environment (my stock air box with APR intake tube and AWE filter showed the same).

The idea behind it is to combat the charge temp rather than trying to stave off the combustion chamber temps it introduces by lowering timing. Technically speaking, you could make more power with more timing than boost if you're getting clean combustion. When that bypass valve is open, that charger is doing a bit less work compressing air and hence the air temp could be just a tad lower along with less pressure in the combustion chamber. Maybe REVO is onto something.

[chaos2984]

Looks like we found the fix for GAIC. But Id like to know what the fix is. Id like to see a 2014 DSG with just the v2 tune and no DSG tune and see what that dyno's. Id like to know if the DSG tune is what is getting the power numbers up. I know your going to get a little more out of the dsg tune maybe like 10 or so maybe but Id like to see a 2014 DSG with the gain V2 file and no dsg tune and see what it puts down compared to the V1 file. If the DSG tune is the Key Id like to see GAIC do something and make a package deal.

[spawn350]

Chaos - you don't need to see that. Just look at peak torque for the V1 vs V2 and then look at the horsepower at 6100 RPM for both. DSG tune has nothing to do with those comparative numbers. V2 smokes V1.

[tgsweat]

Even from the plots above you can see the HP is lower on the V1 car before it even reaches redline, so i doubt the DSG tune is the big difference, although helpful i'm sure above 6400rpm (or where ever it short shifts). AzWildCat had the dsg tune with V1 and V2 and he said he can feel a huge difference, so once again, i would say its not the DSG tune thats making the big difference. I doubt GIAC (or REvo) will come on here and tell what they are doing to the 2014s to get more power.

**edit** Yeah what spawn said lol

[sigaddict]

jran, didn't you used to have a giac tune? I can't remember, what was your reason for switching?

Sent from my Nexus 5

[saxon]

Looks like we found the fix for GAIC. But Id like to know what the fix is. Id like to see a 2014 DSG with just the v2 tune and no DSG tune and see what that dyno's. Id like to know if the DSG tune is what is getting the power numbers up. I know your going to get a little more out of the dsg tune maybe like 10 or so maybe but Id like to see a 2014 DSG with the gain V2 file and no dsg tune and see what it puts down compared to the V1 file. If the DSG tune is the Key Id like to see GAIC do something and make a package deal.

they dont sell the v2 tune without the dsg file. id imagine its there way of making more money and saying that its needed since apr doesnt require a dsg tune and makes similar power

[jran76]

jran, didn't you used to have a giac tune? I can't remember, what was your reason for switching?

Sent from my Nexus 5

I've always had the APR tune. Spawn350 originally had GIAC stage 2 and GIAC DSG, and now Revo for both. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I think he switched because of the issues with V1. He did get what was supposed to be V2 installed, but still felt no change (AWE thinks the shop installed V1 again by mistake).

[spawn350]

Jran - that is a correct summary. I actually had "V2" installed twice, though it never "took".

[SwankPeRFection]

they dont sell the v2 tune without the dsg file. id imagine its there way of making more money and saying that its needed since apr doesnt require a dsg tune and makes similar power

I was just going to say this same thing.

[PSUGOLD]

they dont sell the v2 tune without the dsg file. id imagine its there way of making more money and saying that its needed since apr doesnt require a dsg tune and makes similar power

Really?? The GIAC Stage 2 tune never REQUIRED the DSG tune too, it was always just recommended. Very few people get the Stage 2 without the DSG, but I never recall it being required, at least for the V1.

[SwankPeRFection]

Really?? The GIAC Stage 2 tune never REQUIRED the DSG tune too, it was always just recommended. Very few people get the Stage 2 without the DSG, but I never recall it being required, at least for the V1.

We're not talking Version 1 man. Sax and I are talking about Version 2.

[saxon]

Really?? The GIAC Stage 2 tune never REQUIRED the DSG tune too, it was always just recommended. Very few people get the Stage 2 without the DSG, but I never recall it being required, at least for the V1.

[chaos2984]

gotcha. Like the one guy said a lot of people had the tune it seemed with V1 without the dsg tune. Hopefully by next summer they will have a sale on the whole package deal.

[PSUGOLD]

Thanks Saxon...didn't know they changed that. AWE site still says it is just recommended for DSG equipped cars.

I still see they say 105-130 HP gains too though.