To go bigger turbo, or not to go bigger turbo

[paulmatthew]

Hello all, new to the site hear although ive came and gone for research for a while now. I have a '03 quattro 5 speed with 126,xxx miles and is my daily driver. Only performance mods are cat delete, magnaflow exhaust, cold air intake, 2.0 coilpacks, forge 007 DV and apr stage 1. This was sufficient for about a year and a half now however I am getting bored with the ko3 (much like everyone else).

I know there are a ton of similar threads however I have been unable to come away with a clear cut decision. Ideally, I would like for my car to be able to hang with a bmw 335 or an STI. However I would be happy with something close. I know ill need a new clutch (mine is due for replacing soon anyways), intercooler, injectors as well but my biggest thing is to keep my internals of the motor in tact. I need my motor to still be reliable with around 800-1000 miles per month driven.


Any advice would be greatly appreciated thanks!

[Staz]

sending PM in 3, 2, 1 ...

[Siggiepop]

Get another car that would be my advice. Not even kididng

[03a4b6ztk]

Listen to the Vets

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...with-their-car

[GOODBYNAAIR]

what they say is true^^^
but if you dont want to here you go.

If hanging with stock STI OR stock 335 these turbos ''could'' work. If modded sti or 335 who knows.

Franken turbo(F21) or GT2860 for that power level. If buying new the f21 will be a better price point. you will need a new tune, but I believe you can run the f21 on the APR file until you get a new tune. GT28 size turbo will make more power but will be more money new and more used most likely. For DD they both can be very reliable if done right, the f21 will spool more like the stock k03 down low. the GT28 size turbo will spool later 3000 ish rpms but hold longer into the higher rpms. That's it in a nut shell I'm sure other will correct me if im wrong about any of the info but that should be close.

[texasboy21]

OP, hanging with the cars you stated is a pretty lofty goal. One has two more cylinders and a second turbo, and the other is a 100% through and through "performance car".

It would take quite a bit of turbo to compete and since you do not want to touch the engine, have you considered the APR big injector tune? It widens the power band, and is like getting chipped again.

[paulmatthew]

Thank you for the advice so far. I agree that they are lofty aspirations, however it is not my goal if that makes any sense. I would just like something thats got quite a bit more pull an smoother power if possible. IMO I feel like if I just do the injector file ill feel the same way I felt goin from stock to stg 1 ya know?

[03a4b6ztk]

Honestly sounds like you just need to do a LOT more research on the subject. All the questions you are asking have been answered, many times here.

[Peacob]

2871 elim setup.

/thread

[coowhip]

It all comes down to money and time. Those lofty goals will set you back a good amount of money. Engine rebuild and all associated parts, tuning, time away from the car actually running, and tons of troubleshooting. With that much added power be prepared for quicker failure of normal parts.

IMO it's a money pit to go over a GTRS relative to the worth of the vehicle. Unless you have endless funds to toss into it.

You need to visit the build threads and see what has all been involved in bigger setups. Lots of reading in your future.

[Siggiepop]

2871 elim setup.

/thread

What he said.

Although it won't "hang" with STi or 335 and never will. So don't plant those ideas or expectations into your head.

[paulmatthew]

late model 335's and sti's are right aroung 300 horses. Im not an expert but I dont think that thats totally ludicrous for me to think. I understand some of the senior members get a little cranky but no one is forcing you to comment or even read the post.

What kind of power gains come with a proper 2871 elim setup? and what tune is recommended?

[Peacob]

late model 335's and sti's are right aroung 300 horses. Im not an expert but I dont think that thats totally ludicrous for me to think. I understand some of the senior members get a little cranky but no one is forcing you to comment or even read the post.

What kind of power gains come with a proper 2871 elim setup? and what tune is recommended?

What most people don't grasp on here is when they read they can make such and such horsepower from a certain turbo, 9times out of 10 they are reading the peak horsepower at a certain rpm range.

Sure, you can slap a big turbo onto a different manifold and make 400hp at 5k rpm, but that car with less peak horsepower but bigger displacement that keeps giving you power even when you're not within the turbos efficient range, will be doing just fine.


You want to make 300+hp at certain rpms, have it be daily able, yet fun to drive? Go eliminator 2871

You want to compete with a 335 or Sti? Start saving, cause you'll want a built 2 liter stroker

[coowhip]

And no one is forcing you to read countless build threads that contain a TON of information.

[Matt Devo]

2871 elim setup.

/thread

this

What kind of power gains come with a proper 2871 elim setup? and what tune is recommended?

north of 300 to the wheels with a decent powerband. Tuning options include Motoza, Revo, and Maestro:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/563301

What most people don't grasp on here is when they read they can make such and such horsepower from a certain turbo, 9times out of 10 they are reading the peak horsepower at a certain rpm range.

Sure, you can slap a big turbo onto a different manifold and make 400hp at 5k rpm, but that car with less peak horsepower but bigger displacement that keeps giving you power even when you're not within the turbos efficient range, will be doing just fine.


You want to make 300+hp at certain rpms, have it be daily able, yet fun to drive? Go eliminator 2871

You want to compete with a 335 or Sti? Start saving, cause you'll want a built 2 liter stroker

+1

[rocky.ca]

i had a GT2860 full frame setup with a psi concepts mani, downpipe and all of the goodies. The car was pretty quick, but it did lag a fair amount. The last straw for me was when someone in an all motor late model civic si with the loudest exhaust I have ever heard kept up with me mirror to mirror.

I ended up selling the car. I am now in a b6 s4. It is equally as fast stock, and its got power just about any RPM. It is way more fun in the twisties because u have that instant power and you can get the thing to rotate :)

I plan on doing piggies, jhm tune, catback, intake spacers, and maybe a few other things. and I should be pushing 380ish at the crank and not that far behind an RS4.

[Charles.waite]

What kind of power gains come with a proper 2871 elim setup? and what tune is recommended?

See this is where you need to do some research. Look through build threads. Search maybe.

[b6onboost]

I agree with what others have said.

You have to consider your car's value, the full cost of going with a reliable BT setup (more than the car is worth at this point), and the reality of both performance and powerband.

I remember riding in my friends stock 335ix and thinking 'why am i wasting my time modding my A4'. A car like a 335i or STI is just on a completely different level bone stock. I could've gone BT and dumped thousands more into my car and still not have been as quick, meanwhile having a laggy car with a bunch of potential headaches. To each his own, but if you can afford a proper BT setup you can afford to upgrade to a faster car as well.

[03a4b6ztk]

See this is where you need to do some research. Look through build threads. Search maybe.

Its funny, look at his post in the new member spot, he said he wouldn't ask any of the noob questions.

[Seerlah]

Please, know what you are getting yourself into before you even start. Don't take that advice lightly.

I have been through many stages with my car, and in the end I ask myself if was worth it. All the time. But when I am going WOT, it certainly does. Thing is it was no easy walk getting there. For example, don't add a big turbo unless you have a back up plan. Cheap beater or something. I have a Nissan Maxima also because you can just never know once you start altering your vehicle past a certain point. Heck, you can even say owning an Audi alone places you in that situation. Which it does. But this is worse. And once you start, you never know when it will end. It is an expensive habit. I could have purchased who knows what with the money I have placed into my vehicle. Just some of the things to think about. To put it short, I would not take less than $10,000 for my car. But who would pay that except an enthusiast. I have much more than that into it.

[A4 Moda]

Agreed with all the old farts on here (present author included).

I ran the 71R eliminator setup for many years. On its best days the car felt very, very fun to drive. But mostly in SoCAL summers, and daily heat, I was waiting for a coilpack to pop, a sensor to go out, a leak to ensue, or worse - a hear the paintcan rattle followed by wrist pin incursion. Notice though how I said, very FUN.

What's that saying?
There's no replacement for displacement.
If you are SERIOUS about upping the usable power band, and SERIOUS about maintaining your daily driver, you won't just throw SH&%T on the car and expect her to purr. You would build the engine, improve the auxiliary support systems, research for the best tune/turbo combo, then carry lots of spare parts in your trunk.

If you are worried about STIs and 335s, I don't know what to tell you man. To each his own I guess. I grannied the car day-to-day. Sure I open her up sometime during the day, but it wasn't to prowl for the occasional late night street battle with a 335 or an STI. I enjoyed the interior of the car the most. It didn't hurt to know that the car didn't look too bad as I drove by, slowly. Plus, isn't reckless driving/demonstration of speed / street racing - a misdemanor? In CA, i believe it was called a wobbl"ette" - whereby the DA had discretion to charge as a misdemeanor or an infraction.

Anyway, best of luck to you OP. Be safe and prosper.

[viceprp]

2871 Elim kit.

STI's aren't that fast. They may be quick 1-3 but are dogs up top. Driven a stock STI and rode in a 30r.

[demonmk2]

you would also have to look into mounts...engine,tranny, and rear diff. it will make a difference when adding more power.
I guess it depends on how much you like/love your ride or is it just another car to you as far as how much you're willing to spend.

[tehbry]

Do yourself a favor, save all that cash and do a 2.7T swap, mod, then shit on the 335 and sti's...

[vinny.dtw]

2871 Elim kit.

STI's aren't that fast. They may be quick 1-3 but are dogs up top. Driven a stock STI and rode in a 30r.

They aren't.

But it requires a 71r elim just to keep up with a STOCK STi... Shows you how slow the A4 is. lol

[demonmk2]

With the correct tune he should smoke a sti
With that turbo.

[7speed]

95% of users here will be more than happy with a 71r Elim kit. That is all.

[GOODBYNAAIR]

95% of users here will be more than happy with a 71r Elim kit. That is all.

^^
This is true,
I love my GT2860 ( it was a bit of time,work and cash dont get me wrong) but to fully support a set up like this for DD as others have said, one really has to do it nice or do it twice. OR buy stock STI = go to work make car payment drive car ect. Making 1.8t GT2871r DD ready = time, money , more time and alot of patience. If you do it all yourself it makes you appreciate your car that much more. Its the difference between an enthusiast with a DIY 300+ hp car and someone with a $XX,XXX car lone and a 300hp car. just my $.02
defiantly do your research fist!

[Bische]

I still hold on to what I have said for a long time, do not go larger than a 28series sized turbo on the 1.8t. Stock block/GTRS is probably the best bang for the headache, and feeling ambitious - drop in rods and choose a larger compressor like the 71r or like me a billet HTA compressor and crank it.

A healthy running GTRS setup will yield 350chp, or 196.5hp/liter which is alot of power honestly. The same hp/l on say a 2.7tt would yield 530chp or ~400whp..

Just food for thought, dont ask too much from the little 1.8t or you will end up disapointed.

[badharrow]

Just 'hang' with sti's and 335s at stop lights and in carparks. Its way cheaper ;)

[diagnosticator]

late model 335's and sti's are right aroung 300 horses. Im not an expert but I dont think that thats totally ludicrous for me to think. I understand some of the senior members get a little cranky but no one is forcing you to comment or even read the post.

What kind of power gains come with a proper 2871 elim setup? and what tune is recommended?

Yeah, but almost everyone seems to forget that the factor that makes a car fast or not on the street is the Torque curve not the peak hp developed. There is just no practical way the 1.8T is going to be able to produce the area under the torque curve that a 335 or an STi produces at the lower end range of engine RPMs useful on the street. In order to get close to the peak hp of these cars, the tuning on the 1.8T will be a huge compromise, and will not be a fun car to drive on the street. For a fun street setup, a smaller turbo like a K-04 or a GT 2560 elim, will provide a nice fat torque curve that will provide good drivability qualities important for the street/daily driver, but it just won't be up to 335 levels. If you want that level of performance, then the A4 quattro 1.8T is not the car to own. If a B6 A4 quattro is ever going to achieve 335 class performance, then only a tuned 2.7T $$$ transplant would suffice, IMO.

[gmx]

you would also have to look into mounts...engine,tranny, and rear diff. it will make a difference when adding more power.
I guess it depends on how much you like/love your ride or is it just another car to you as far as how much you're willing to spend.

If there's anything I regret doing, it's the stupid mounts and certain clutches I went through. Infact, I would say half the aftermarket components out there are pure junk and utterly useless. I ended up buying a lot of shit twice even if they initially looked the go-to reliable, reputable items.
For mounts, just cough up the money for B5 RS4 motor mounts and leave it at that.

Slap on a GTRS, DP, TIP, FMIC, fueling + tune & call it day. Even though it's minimal difference and my own preference , GTRS elimi > 2871 elim. Massive compressor on tiny exhaust side is .

[demonmk2]

He could go gtx2863r that would be interesting...
I might be doing this, on an AEB with an intake cam and yes rods.
I will be running a 550 tune initially. But it will be a daily.

[mariosa4]

here in greece we use the K04 turbo from new Audi S3. using transition plate between head and stock K04 manifold. the most astonishing is the powerbrand starting to built boost on 2000 rpm and up to 7000 rpm.
a friend did this years ago with no troubles , only thing you need is a good tune and forge scat rods if you want to e safe. i think is the best you can do for 1.8t for a daily driven car that don't ask special treatment

here is the dynosheet for non-believers (290whp ) and some pics of the project
the dyno boost was 1.4 bar (20.3 psi) . Imagine what is going to happen if you push it to 1.8-1.9 using meth...

[texasboy21]

^Even used the S3 manifold, well done.

[mariosa4]

heare are some more pics of the transition plate. the most important is that the engine block and head is 100% stock except the rods, no need for aftermarket clutch etc. if i could turn back time i would go that root for sure...

[vinny.dtw]

Thats one hell of a efficient k04 if you ask me.

[Charles.waite]

^Even used the S3 manifold, well done.

You can't NOT use that FSI s3 manifold. Its integral to the turbo hotside.

In other news, I've never seen this done. Thats awesome. The S3 K04 is a hell of a turbo. Nothing like the weaksauce K04-15 us 1.8t guys are used to.

Thats one hell of a efficient k04 if you ask me.

That S3 K04 has billet wheels and a much revised blade profile, etc. Its a totally different beast than the k04-15. Lots of the 2.0t guys make over 300awhp with it no problem. Just need some rods and you're good.

[Bische]

Dang..

Maybe time to pick up on MED9 and make a kit..

[gtsingh91]

I haven't heard of the S3 K04 for the B6 1.8, always seen the K04-015. Does anybody over here sell the kit? I wonder if it's easier on the wallet over the FT kits..