Bische's Wagon - The thread

[Bische]

Thanks guys, im looking at Vogtland coilovers now, but i cant find out if they work with avants or not?

[Bische]

The electrician was here and hooked me up 400v

[djrocky]

Will there be some welding in your future?

[a4darkness]

Thanks guys, im looking at Vogtland coilovers now, but i cant find out if they work with avants or not?

I can't imagine that they wouldn't. But if you want to be sure, or just need more info, contact Mike@PureMS. He's fielded a slew of questions from me and I bought my set from him. More importantly, he's an incredibly well versed individual when it comes to suspensions. Hit him up.

http://www.purems.com/products/product.php/II=149

[Bische]

Will there be some welding in your future?

Affirmative.

I can't imagine that they wouldn't. But if you want to be sure, or just need more info, contact Mike@PureMS. He's fielded a slew of questions from me and I bought my set from him. More importantly, he's an incredibly well versed individual when it comes to suspensions. Hit him up.

http://www.purems.com/products/product.php/II=149

I would feel bad asking him about stuff when im not buying from him... I mailed the seller in germany and he responed they does indeed fit, axel weight 1250kg front and 1165kg rear. Does that seem right?

[Bische]

I would feel bad asking him about stuff when im not buying from him... I mailed the seller in germany and he responed they does indeed fit, axel weight 1250kg front and 1165kg rear. Does that seem right?

search ffs, yeah i searched bilstein has the same numbers for their coilovers in their cataloge, sedan and avant both.

[kneel]

so what suspension are you going with. i need to change mine up. I commute so much that i need a good reliable setup thats gonna last a long time.

[Turbavanttro]

Thanks guys, im looking at Vogtland coilovers now, but i cant find out if they work with avants or not?

The higher weight of the avant calls for a slightly upgraded spring in the rear. I just had a good discussion with STASIS on this.

[Bische]

so what suspension are you going with. i need to change mine up. I commute so much that i need a good reliable setup thats gonna last a long time.

Havent decided yet..

The higher weight of the avant calls for a slightly upgraded spring in the rear. I just had a good discussion with STASIS on this.

Yeah thats what was thinking too, but the seller i contacted said the vogtlands are the same for both sedan and wagons. Up to 1250kg axleweight front and up to 1165kg rear, those numbers are equal to bilsteins coilovers which also are the same for avants and sedans?

Im confused, i hope someone can chime in and spread some light.

[a4darkness]

This is why I suggested contacting Mike@Pure. He'll have answers for you.

[Bische]

Digged some more, the weight difference between sedans and wagons is 111lbs. H&r have different partnumbers for them and the majority have the same partnumbers.

[kneel]

This is why I suggested contacting Mike@Pure. He'll have answers for you.

Mike is the one that sold me on the KONI YEELOWS................yeah not sure if i want his word. He was excelent to deal with but wish he didnt convince me on the KONI's. I went to PURE to get the Bilstiens.

[a4darkness]

While that might be the case, we're not talking Koni v Bilstien here... more so about CO rates and how they relate to the Avant. Koni's aren't a bad product by any means, just not the ones for you. Regardless, it's a bummer you had a poor experience with them ans subsequently Mike.

But you bring up a good point Neil... multiple sources for info are key, and just b/c I'm suggesting he contact Mike isn't to say he's the final word on suspension. Like I mentioned above, I would suggest he contact Eric as well as he's either run or intimately knows about 99% of the suspension setups available for our cars.

[kneel]

While that might be the case, we're not talking Koni v Bilstien here... more so about CO rates and how they relate to the Avant. Koni's aren't a bad product by any means, just not the ones for you. Regardless, it's a bummer you had a poor experience with them ans subsequently Mike.

But you bring up a good point Neil... multiple sources for info are key, and just b/c I'm suggesting he contact Mike isn't to say he's the final word on suspension. Like I mentioned above, I would suggest he contact Eric as well as he's either run or intimately knows about 99% of the suspension setups available for our cars.

Yeah true its not a KONI - BILSTIEN thing. I just need to find a good setup for my commute. The 70-90 mile each way trip to work thru NYC has taken its toll on my Avant. I'm actually considering a set of CO. I thought i read in the Avants Only Section that H&R makes an Avant specific CO setup. I need to find this thread.
I've looked on PURE, AWE, NAM, MJM for an Avant Specific set but nothing listed.

Thinking of just keeping the Avant Specific Neuspeed Sport Springs i'm running and just do Bilstiens and call it a day???

Along with CO or Shocks i need a good set of Control Arms. Looking into a whole kit. I want to replace everything.

[a4darkness]

Bische, hope you don't mind the minor thread jack... but this'll likely be relevant.

Neil, I was thinking about respectfully bringing up the fact that you often times carry a decent payload (tools + equip) in your Avant. That coupled with the garbage roads in your area, commute etc etc can make for a poor suspension experience. I'm a bit new to the technical aspects of suspensions but one thing I have learned about are spring types and spring rates... and their subsequent effect on a vehicle's performance and whatnot. Lets briefly discuss.

Basically, I'm theorizing that 1) your springs are part of the reason you've had shock issues and 2) you need a more dialed (matched) setup in order to reduce excessive travel which will decrease the chance of an early end to your rear suspension

For instance, I'm thinking part of the reason why you had trouble with your Koni's is b/c they're dampening adjustable and can be used with a multitude of different springs (none of which are perfectly matched, especially depending on what setting the Koni's are on). And lets be clear... I'm not by any means implying that you're at fault here. But more so advocating that your needs are different than the average Avant owner. So then, a better formula must be concocted.

First, I would overwhelming suggest you consider CO's. A CO setup is matched from the get go (even if they're dampening adjustable). I would think you need to evaluate progressive vs linear springs, especially on the rear, and see what's going to best suit your needs. But more so than that, consider what the spring rates are for the known setups and determine how much and or what you need back there. For example, I'd think that between the two Vogtland offerings, you'd be better off with the GT's as their rates are higher than the standards.

Additionally, you could also consider dampening adjustable CO's... but ONLY those that can be adjusted while on the car (STaSIS Motor Sports + Bilstein PSS9). Reason being, if you load up your car and need to drive 80 miles, it would be great to be able to dial your rears accordingly and then switch them back once you've extracted the payload. And I'm hoping you can see how it would be pointless to buy dampening adjustable CO's that are only adjustable when removed from the vehicle. You need on the go functionality, not the ability to make an adjustment when hitting the track 3 times a year.

Check out Eric's guide for details... it's frickin great.
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...-dampening-etc.

I firmly believe you're correct in that the Avant's weight (and potential to carry more weight) requires a more effectively chosen suspension setup. That said, when you do get a set of CO's (see how I did that? lol) and worse case scenario it's almost perfect but just not quite right, you can always buy a different set of springs from a company like Swift to swap into your existing rear CO's.

All that said, I'm heading into the garage to try and install my Vogtlands. But of course I'm bringing the laptop. ;-)

[kneel]

now that we tied up Bische's thread. ^ you sir have got a great point there. I had the Chance on a set of PSS9's F A C K!!!. $800 for them too!. Oh well.
Thanks for the info i'm sure Bische can use that info too!

[a4darkness]

If those are the ones I'm thinking of... it's likely better you passed.

And Bische, what do you think of all this? Ya know, since it is your thread.

[Bische]

No i dont mind this discussion here, it is bringing up points that many people dont consider when shopping for suspension

The way i see it, as a daily driver: the vast majority of coilover brands we can choose from has the same set for either sedan or avant, the weight difference between them two is too small to make it cost effective to make a "perfect match" for each model(esp. since the sedan is way more represented vs the wagon).

Then again, whats the perfect match? none of us suspension newbs does really know what we want from our suspension and cant read springrates and know how it would perform when actually in the car, on the road. Right there all this perfect match with spring rates goes down the drain.
The vogtlands for example, they have a bit higher spring rates than the OEM sport suspension, they are more firm/stiff in comparasion. and putting those the avant even though the were "perfect matched" for the sedan, would be the same ass having a sedan and put a big ass stereo and fill it up full tank.

If that would cause the CO's to fail, its just sad. It will surely decrease handling a notch, but hey, I was fine with the way the OEM sport handled. And these being stiffer than those to begin with, they cant handle bad - on a wagon.

to sum up my opinion: the weight diff(111lbs) between wagon/sedan is too small for the brands to make separate "perfect match" sets. For the hardcore track maniac, there is "perfect matched" CO's from H&R for your avant, but i fail to see the hardcore track maniac driving a wagon to begin with.

I think i might be going with Vogtlands+rs4 sway and call it a day.

[Bische]

This is why I suggested contacting Mike@Pure. He'll have answers for you.

Yes, but i think it is rude to take up a sellers time for info/guidence, then go buy the product from elsewere.

[Bische]

There is people running the stasis SS's on their avants, which has lower spring rates than the vogtland non GTs.

SS's is 450F/440R, vogtland non GTs 500F/550R, GTs 575F/650R.(info from the link above)

[Bische]

I have been diggin' some more in germany, there are 6 types of Vogtland coilovers:

Max axle weight, F/R
*Sedan FWD 1220 kg / 1100 kg
*Sedan 4WD 1230 kg / 1150 kg and 1080 kg / 1150 kg
*Wagon/cab FWD 1250 kg / 1150 kg
*Wagon/cab 4WD 1250 kg / 1165 kg and 1080 kg / 1165 kg

http://www.vogtland.com/downloads/vogtland_katalog.pdf

On the plate under my hood it says: 1050kg front / 1130kg rear axle weight.

So there actually is coilovers for all types of b6 combinations, available from Vogtland.

EDIT: theres also an adjustable model for B6/7: Audi A4, Typ 8E (B6/7), Lim. / Sedan, Avant 4 cyl. + 6 cyl., Frontantrieb / 2WD, Quattro 8.00 > -55 -50 21, 25, 31, 47 TÜV 968602 <** part#

[kneel]

i think i want to the Vogtland's for my Avant! Time to find the the place that carried them here in the US

[EBG 18T]

bische - what is your budget? How do you use the car? How low are you looking to go?

[Bische]

bische - what is your budget? How do you use the car? How low are you looking to go?

Is was shopping for shocks to go with my H&R springs, but a set of bilsteins or konis cost almost the same as a set of vogtland coilovers here. which are around 800.
I daily drive my car and comfort goes before handling, i was fine the way the stock sport handled, just wanted more low. 25-25.5"G/F nothing superlow

Im thinking of Vogtland coilovers + rs4 sway and stern adjustible CA's + new bushings in the lower CA's

[a4darkness]

bische - what is your budget? How do you use the car? How low are you looking to go?

There you are, finally someone who knows WTF he's talking about.

[EBG 18T]

Is was shopping for shocks to go with my H&R springs, but a set of bilsteins or konis cost almost the same as a set of vogtland coilovers here. which are around 800.
I daily drive my car and comfort goes before handling, i was fine the way the stock sport handled, just wanted more low. 25-25.5"G/F nothing superlow

Im thinking of Vogtland coilovers + rs4 sway and stern adjustible CA's + new bushings in the lower CA's

Skip the Vogtlands. They are going to take away some of the comfort. They are a overdamped and there is no compression or rebound adjustment.

The H&R springs with Bilsteins rides good, albeit slightly firmer than with the OEM Sport shocks as the Bilstein valving is stiffer. I was very impressed with the H&R Sport/Bilstein setup. Combine that with the 22mm (oem rs4) sway bar and it will be a good quality ride and predictable handling. You can also do the Koni's but i have seen a few sets recently that didn't hold up that well. I have always liked Koni's but the recent leaky seal issues on the B6 platform dampers have me a tad concernd to completly feel confident in them.

The H&R springs aren't low enough to worry about the needing the adjustable upper control arms, so you can save your $. Match your rear camber to the to the front, i guess it will be in the -1.2-1.3 range. Set the toe close to '0' at all 4 corners and this will help make the tire wear even.

When you have everything appart install a new set of upper strut mounts in the front. I have seen several of these recently with low milage that are completlty compressed. I actually cracked/tore a set of them. I didn't realize that a rubber compound like that could do that.

[Bische]

Skip the Vogtlands. They are going to take away some of the comfort. They are a overdamped and there is no compression or rebound adjustment.

The H&R springs with Bilsteins rides good, albeit slightly firmer than with the OEM Sport shocks as the Bilstein valving is stiffer. I was very impressed with the H&R Sport/Bilstein setup. Combine that with the 22mm (oem rs4) sway bar and it will be a good quality ride and predictable handling. You can also do the Koni's but i have seen a few sets recently that didn't hold up that well. I have always liked Koni's but the recent leaky seal issues on the B6 platform dampers have me a tad concernd to completly feel confident in them.

The H&R springs aren't low enough to worry about the needing the adjustable upper control arms, so you can save your $. Match your rear camber to the to the front, i guess it will be in the -1.2-1.3 range. Set the toe close to '0' at all 4 corners and this will help make the tire wear even.

When you have everything appart install a new set of upper strut mounts in the front. I have seen several of these recently with low milage that are completlty compressed. I actually cracked/tore a set of them. I didn't realize that a rubber compound like that could do that.

Thanks, one thing i have been concerned with is the slight reverse rake i get with my H&R springs. My idea was to get and aftermarket damper that uses OEM spring perch, so that i could use the B5 spring perch to eliminate my rake. But as i have read there is no damper that uses the OEM perch(at least not in my range of use), and this got me thinking coilovers instead.
I know it probably sounds ridiculos, but the reverse rake is one of the main priorities i have know when im upgrading my suspension. (i realized i should have mentioned this when you asked for my use of application)

And going ~10mm lower up front would cause more neg camber, hence i want adjustible CA's. Definatly going with new strut mounts, thanks for the heads up
I am strongly leaning towards coilovers now, for the piece of mind i can set it up exactly how it want it, i want to go lower - no problem. I wanted coilovers from the beginning too, but i didnt plan to go this far with this car back then.

And the reason i am looking at Vogtlands, is that i can get them for $50 more than the bilstein sprints. (and of coarse for the good reviews and the ease of rear adjustment)
I can live with lesser comfort but not handling OVER comfort, my car rides really ugly ATM with H&R sports and OEM sport dampers, i dont want a harsh ride but a bit more firmness is no problem. Just so it aint as stiff as is right now haha

[EBG 18T]

If a major concern is eliminating the reverse rake then just use the ECS front spring perches. ECS Spring Perch

I know you can get the Vogtland's cheap, but that combined with a 19" wheel you will definitly feel the overdamped valving. The bilstein w/ H&R Sports will ride smoother than the Vogtlands.

Even if you go down another 10mm you will aproach -1.3 deg camber. There is no issue with that camber. Once you install the adjustable upper control arms you can dial out the camber, but honestly why would you. Camber is actually benefical for the handling. If you adjust the toe you can have the good handling balanced with the even tire wear.

If you install those arms, you better have a top notch alignment shop to work with. Many alignment shops will not touch adjustable arms like that since they vary so much from the traditional OEM parts. The other thing you will run into is the adjustble's are slightly louder. Yes Sterns are suppose to be quieter, but with solid bearings you will feel more and hear more. Yes, i have run adjustable UCA's. I have since gone back to Febi/Bilstein UCA's.

But from reading your post it appears you heart is set on Vogtland Coils since they are only $50 more and using the adjustable upper control arms.Good luck and enjoy

[Bische]

damn, youre making this really hard for me haha

Can you elaborate the overdamped valving on the Vogtlands, how does that make the ride feel? more firm?

For the CA's thats because my new tires shows wear to the inner side after one summer(i have rotated them once), and i aligned my car exactly how you described. 0 toe around and match rear camber to front. What tire pressure should be ran? I was recommended to run the stock pressures, but i got a feeling now that most people runs higher pressures with low profile tires.
I just spent 1k at tires last spring and i just want them to last as long as possible. Trust me, i dont want to dish out 7-800 on the sterns if i dont have to, i just want my shit to be straight. I cant sleep well knowing my car eats tyres haha

I really appriciate your help, and i am taking it in, its just that the thought of coilovers has really grown on me. And putting on the ECS thingys feels like doing it backwards, and its costs more than going with coilovers in my case.

[Bische]

My summers after about 12k, rotated once:

[Jimminez]

I've the Vogtland GTs now for over 2 years with 64K km (~39K miles) and love them. To me they feel very similar to my original sport suspension but I also had some Vogtland springs on prior for about a year so it's been a while since having stock suspension.

I find they are great for a daily driving with some spirited driving.

[EBG 18T]

damn, youre making this really hard for me haha

Can you elaborate the overdamped valving on the Vogtlands, how does that make the ride feel? more firm?

For the CA's thats because my new tires shows wear to the inner side after one summer(i have rotated them once), and i aligned my car exactly how you described. 0 toe around and match rear camber to front. What tire pressure should be ran? I was recommended to run the stock pressures, but i got a feeling now that most people runs higher pressures with low profile tires.
I just spent 1k at tires last spring and i just want them to last as long as possible. Trust me, i dont want to dish out 7-800 on the sterns if i dont have to, i just want my shit to be straight. I cant sleep well knowing my car eats tyres haha

I really appriciate your help, and i am taking it in, its just that the thought of coilovers has really grown on me. And putting on the ECS thingys feels like doing it backwards, and its costs more than going with coilovers in my case.

Trust me i don't want to be shelling out $$ on tires if i don't have to either. My 245-35-19 Michelin PS2's added up pretty quick. With the design of our front suspension you will have a hard time dialing out all of the inter-tire wear, and still have decent handling. If you take too much camber out the feel will be blah. The inner tire wear with the '0' toe tends to happen more if you spend alot of time on the highway. Most folks running the '0' toe have been able to reduce the inner tire wear to a managible ammount. I run ~38psi on my 19's, i came to this psi after using a pyrometer and measuring the temps at the inner, middle and outside areas of the tread pattern. I adjusted the psi till i got the least ammount of variance between the 3 settings. For the PS2's it was ~38. Every tire will be different.

If you are dead set on getting coilovers i would also look at the KW's over the Vogtland's. The dampening on the KW V2 is adjustable and the rear adjusters on the KW's are also easy to use when compares to Koni & Bilstein C/O's. The slightly over damped feel on the Vogtlands will yeild a slightly firmer feel, over smaller underlations in the road surface will not be as suppde feeling. I found the Kw V2's rear springs a tad soft for my taste, but they yeilded a slightly better ride when the dampening was properly adjusted. If i was to buy a set of coilovers with comfort as the primary concern you could even look to the KW Comfort series which is readily avaliable in Europe.

Vogtland primarily uses a Koni based damper internal. KW also used a Koni based damper internal for several years, but ~3yrs ago they brought the damper production in house and build a damper that was more progressive over the whole stroke length. When you look at the shock dyno's of many KW dampers the rampup is smooth and proggresive. When you look at the shock dyno of a Bilstein it is smooth and then ramps up quickly (has an internal bumpstop). Depending on the Koni some are more linear than others thru the stroke length. I used the STaSIS Street Sports (Koni Coilover) in the beginning and it was very comfortable. They were very nice on the street, but the rear adjusters are a PITA.

talk to a few alignment shops before you order the stern UCA's. Make sure you can find someone good that is willing to spend the time setting them up. You will also have to decide what camber you want to run. I used the adjustable control arms to actually get more camber. I was able to keep a resonable ride height for the damper/spring rate i wanted and get -2.3 deg of camber where as the OEM UCA's would only get me -1.2 deg of camber. Expect to spend about 2x the regular price for the alignment if you find a good shop that can do it.

Not sure if that helps or not...

[Bische]

what have i got myself into..

the kw v1's is 350euro more than vogtlands, v2's and comforts are 600euro more...

I will speak to my alignment shop about the sterns, for sure. what i cant understand is why my tyres wear uneven with the amount of camber i have, to much flex from the bushings? They have never been replaced.

[Bische]

I've the Vogtland GTs now for over 2 years with 64K km (~39K miles) and love them. To me they feel very similar to my original sport suspension but I also had some Vogtland springs on prior for about a year so it's been a while since having stock suspension.

I find they are great for a daily driving with some spirited driving.

Thanks

[kneel]

I'm learning so much in the thread......but yet still so confused? ahaha!

Bishe_ if you stay with springs/shocks look into the Neuspeed Avant Sport Springs. They got rid of my reverse rake
pics for reference:

with 18's -


with 19's -


these are the two most level ground shots i have

[elevation]

Nice clean look! nice work!

[Bische]

thanks neil, but i sure wont change my springs for other springs. that would cost me as much as kw v1s.

anyone has any input why my tyres wears uneven?

[kneel]

thanks neil, but i sure wont change my springs for other springs. that would cost me as much as kw v1s.

anyone has any input why my tyres wears uneven?

no idea as to why they were like that. My 19's did wear uneven too. With 18's i have no issues.

[EBG 18T]

what i cant understand is why my tyres wear uneven with the amount of camber i have, to much flex from the bushings? They have never been replaced.

This does happen on folks that spend alot of time just driving straight on the highway. It would have cored your inner edge if you had stock toe.

The only tire i ever had unbalanced inner tread wear was with a set of Khumo MX's. It 'think' it had to do with the sidewall contruction and flex. Once i replaced them with Bridgestone RE-01R, and now Michelin Pilot Sport 2's i haven't had the issue.

I truly beleive you get what you pay for when it comes to items like tires, brakes and suspension. These are area's i won't cheap out on.

[kneel]

This does happen on folks that spend alot of time just driving straight on the highway. It would have cored your inner edge if you had stock toe.

The only tire i ever had unbalanced inner tread wear was with a set of Khumo MX's. It 'think' it had to do with the sidewall contruction and flex. Once i replaced them with Bridgestone RE-01R, and now Michelin Pilot Sport 2's i haven't had the issue.

I truly beleive you get what you pay for when it comes to items like tires, brakes and suspension. These are area's i won't cheap out on.

Those are great tires but they wore very uneven for me as well.