B6/B7 S4 Timing Chain FAQ / Information / Discussion Thread

[bigredx24x]

Here is a vid of the damage via noise.

Yikes!

[Sickws6]

Hoping I can get away with rebuilding the heads and salvaging the block and rotating assem. We shall see once I rip into it


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[fallingreason]

Once this service is done at around 90-100k, will it likely need to be repeated at 200k? Or are the faults limited to the factory components?


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[Sickws6]

Updates on my thread yeah that is what causing that noise. Check out the pics

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...0#post11040770

[Kevinskir]

So this might be a dumb question, but, does this also apply to a B7 RS4? From what I found they also have a timing chain but are they plagued with the possible same issues? I mainly ask because I have been talking myself into getting one and making it work lol. Two I am looking at have 84k and 104k miles respectively, just trying to see what I might be looking at for immediate service is all. Thanks!

[RedS4avant]

Rs4 has metal guides I believe

[amc120475]

So my b6 s4 just had catastrophic failure due to failure of the timing components. Engine is toast. I called audi to at least share my ownership experience and they advised me to take it to the dealer and get a diagnosis, and they gave me a case number. The car is at a very reputable indy shop currently. Has anyone who has had timing issues, ever got audi to help out with out of warranty costs? Just wondering if they were just giving me lip service, or if it is something worth pursuing with them. If anyone can share their experiences it would be greatly appreciated. I know this thread is rather old...

[BCsniper]

Yer fucked...sorry man.

I think Audi helped a couple folks back in the day when people were under warranty or just had it expire. Even then they made you pay for a teardown. After that I think I remember them paying out all of twice....and that was back when these failures were a brand new thing. Now tell just laugh and offer you a new (rebuilt) motor for 15k

[amc120475]

Thanks. Just fucking bullshit that at 104k miles a car needs a complete new engine. Did all the research on timing chain and other issues with the b6 until my eyes bled, and still made the decision to buy. Didn't know I'd be one of the horror stories I read about all those hours, although I think I'm in the minority with owners who had complete catastrophic failure. Lucky me! Owned it since 80k and always had regular service. I do love the car and this won't be my last Audi, but for a high end manufacturer of cars, they should be ashamed of this.

[jordanskole]

Wow. Thank you so much for putting this thread together. I am currently considering a 2005.5 B7 S4 right now, and I was doing research when I found this. Does anybody know:

- How common is this problem? It seems like dealerships say it isn't common, but seems like it is?
- Can anything be done to prevent this? The car I am looking at was owned by Audi Corporate for a long time, would they do they have done the replacements as PM (under 60k miles)?
- I have access to all the mechanical records since factory for the car I am considering. Is there anything I should look out for to indicate this is in my future?
- It seemed like this issue plagued the b6 more than the b7, is that true?

Thanks again for putting together this thread and thanks in advance for the answers!

[alofoke1985]

Can anyone help me to put my s4 back in time please ☹☹

[alofoke1985]

Can anyone help me to put my s4 back in time please ☹☹

[0396]

Excellent tread, its unfortunate that Joey is no longer a member -:(. If he was in LA, I would take my S4 to him for service / timing change service.

[NAPPYKHAKI]

What was the total cost on your repair...if you don't mind me asking.

[0396]

What was the total cost on your repair...if you don't mind me asking.

Excellent question, as I plan on having my S4 done too.

[VinnysS4]

Ok im a little confused here. Not trying to beat a dead horse or bring up the timing chain topic more than it already has been brought up. Here are my 2 questions. #1---JHM sells their intermediate kit off their website for $1575(plus shipping im assuming) and they also sell what appears to be the exact same kit(and is labeled the exact same) on ebay for $2150+$50 shipping. What is the difference? Am i missing something?
#2---What would be the difference of ordering a kit from say ecs tuning (https://www.ecstuning.com/ES2593417/...Y9AaAgyH8P8HAQ) and adding the mechanical adjusters and subtracting the chains? other than just a few seals, they appear to be the same.
I'm not trying to start a huge debate as to who is a better company or who works on these engines more etc...JHM is obviously a huge contributor to the S4 world (much thanks for that too!) I'm just the average guy who wants to fix his own car and doesn't want to spend more than is needed to do it. As people have stated before, the chains don't really break. People have talked about them stretching, but i have never once seen anyone measure them too see if this is infact a measurable amount. It's hard for me to justify the $2000 expense as a maintenance item, but i don't want to wait until it breaks and be possibly stuck with 2x that amount in repairs. I have 94k on my motor with some rattle on start-up (considered normal) and every once in a while ill hear it on warm startup. anyone?

[drwest]

Ok im a little confused here. Not trying to beat a dead horse or bring up the timing chain topic more than it already has been brought up. Here are my 2 questions. #1---JHM sells their intermediate kit off their website for $1575(plus shipping im assuming) and they also sell what appears to be the exact same kit(and is labeled the exact same) on ebay for $2150+$50 shipping. What is the difference? Am i missing something?
#2---What would be the difference of ordering a kit from say ecs tuning (https://www.ecstuning.com/ES2593417/...Y9AaAgyH8P8HAQ) and adding the mechanical adjusters and subtracting the chains? other than just a few seals, they appear to be the same.
I'm not trying to start a huge debate as to who is a better company or who works on these engines more etc...JHM is obviously a huge contributor to the S4 world (much thanks for that too!) I'm just the average guy who wants to fix his own car and doesn't want to spend more than is needed to do it. As people have stated before, the chains don't really break. People have talked about them stretching, but i have never once seen anyone measure them too see if this is infact a measurable amount. It's hard for me to justify the $2000 expense as a maintenance item, but i don't want to wait until it breaks and be possibly stuck with 2x that amount in repairs. I have 94k on my motor with some rattle on start-up (considered normal) and every once in a while ill hear it on warm startup. anyone?

I am hoping for some good input here seeing that I am contemplating on what timing kit to buy. I have been leaning towards the ECS Tuning standard kit, but now that its pointed out that JHM has a beefier guide, perhaps this should be reconsidered.

[Jake@JHM]

This kit is hands down the most recommended kit available on the market:

https://jhmotorsports.com/shop/catal...te-p-2312.html

we supply a metal guide to replace that pesky plastic OEM guide that is always breaking, and we provide the JHM Adjuster repair kit. The intermediate kit replaces everything that is most failure prone that requires an engine pull.

[VinnysS4]

ok so what is the difference between the kit on your web site and the one on ebay sold from you as well? its like a $600 difference

[Jake@JHM]

ok so what is the difference between the kit on your web site and the one on ebay sold from you as well? its like a $600 difference

There is an OEM kit and a JHM Kit.

[VinnysS4]

BTW, as i stated before: Thank you for continuing to work on our model of S4 and making parts for them. You seem to be one of the only, and by far the best aftermarket companies around. I'm not saying "buy xxxxx parts because they are 50 bucks cheaper" im just trying to figure out 1: why there is such a gap in price for what appears to be the same exact kit sold from different locations by the same manufacturer and 2: other then the upgraded guide that is known to fail so often, what is really the difference in ordering from JHM for as opposed to someone else who sells other manufacturers parts? Sorry for the questions and if i sound like i'm butting heads...i don't mean to sound that way. I'll probably just order the kit from you anyways, its just a lot more than something like a tank of gas and x-mas is right around the corner...

[VinnysS4]

fast response! so then the one on E-bay is the OEM kit? and the on on your web site is JHM?

[Jake@JHM]

BTW, as i stated before: Thank you for continuing to work on our model of S4 and making parts for them. You seem to be one of the only, and by far the best aftermarket companies around. I'm not saying "buy xxxxx parts because they are 50 bucks cheaper" im just trying to figure out 1: why there is such a gap in price for what appears to be the same exact kit sold from different locations by the same manufacturer and 2: other then the upgraded guide that is known to fail so often, what is really the difference in ordering from JHM for as opposed to someone else who sells other manufacturers parts? Sorry for the questions and if i sound like i'm butting heads...i don't mean to sound that way. I'll probably just order the kit from you anyways, its just a lot more than something like a tank of gas and x-mas is right around the corner...

The biggest reasons to order from us is because we are the ones supporting the community the most. If people don't order from us, we won't be able to support you. We also provide a TON of tech support, which you simply will not get from other vendors who just sling parts. We actually manufacture parts for the timing chain kit to make it better than OEM, which means you won't be able to get those better parts from other companies because we are the only ones who truly support this platform.

fast response! so then the one on E-bay is the OEM kit? and the on on your web site is JHM?

JHM Intermediate: https://jhmotorsports.com/shop/catal...te-p-2312.html
OEM Intermediate: https://jhmotorsports.com/shop/catal...te-p-1083.html

[VinnysS4]

Better than OEM for cheaper?? Sounds like a good deal to me. I really appreciate the information. I just didn't really want to start another timing chain thread with the same oid information.

[VinnysS4]

one last question for ya. might seem dumb but it made me think....why use the same exact picture for the 2 different kits(OEM and JHM) if they have different parts in them? do they all look 100% identical between the two kits or do you just not have a kit with the upgraded guide in it? or do you include the upgraded one with the OEM kit, hence the same exact photo? THANKS!

[Jake@JHM]

Better than OEM for cheaper?? Sounds like a good deal to me. I really appreciate the information. I just didn't really want to start another timing chain thread with the same oid information.

Yup, better and cheaper than OEM!

[Jake@JHM]

one last question for ya. might seem dumb but it made me think....why use the same exact picture for the 2 different kits(OEM and JHM) if they have different parts in them? do they all look 100% identical between the two kits or do you just not have a kit with the upgraded guide in it? or do you include the upgraded one with the OEM kit, hence the same exact photo? THANKS!

The upgraded guide we include in all kits now, but the JHM kit comes with our adjusters and the OEM comes with OEM

[dhjelm]

Popping in with an RS4 question if you don't mind. (Audi RS4 B7)

More or less right after I changed the camshaft position sensors, i got a new code:P1528 - 004 - open circuit - MIL ON.. Fault status:11100100, fault frequency:3

What does fault status and Fault frequency actually mean?

The mechanic used VAG-COM, to get this information. But his idea is that I need to change timing chain(!) witch for me makes no sense. As the code states that there is something goign on with the Camshaft Timing adj. Bank 1 (N205)

Are there times when the car thrown this codes that chain replacements are necessary?

The car wont start in the mornings when cold. I can hear some clicking here and there. But the starter motor does not react. The car starts after I wiggle a bit on some connectors..

The whole fault:

005416 - Camshaft Timing Adj. Bank 1 /N205)
P1528 - 004 - Open circuit - MIL ON
Fault status: 11100100
Fault priority: 0
Fault frequency: 3
Reset counter 255
Milage: 110494 km
Time indication:0

[jakeoboy67]

Popping in with an RS4 question if you don't mind. (Audi RS4 B7)

More or less right after I changed the camshaft position sensors, i got a new code:P1528 - 004 - open circuit - MIL ON.. Fault status:11100100, fault frequency:3

What does fault status and Fault frequency actually mean?

The mechanic used VAG-COM, to get this information. But his idea is that I need to change timing chain(!) witch for me makes no sense. As the code states that there is something goign on with the Camshaft Timing adj. Bank 1 (N205)

Are there times when the car thrown this codes that chain replacements are necessary?

The car wont start in the mornings when cold. I can hear some clicking here and there. But the starter motor does not react. The car starts after I wiggle a bit on some connectors..

The whole fault:

005416 - Camshaft Timing Adj. Bank 1 /N205)
P1528 - 004 - Open circuit - MIL ON
Fault status: 11100100
Fault priority: 0
Fault frequency: 3
Reset counter 255
Milage: 110494 km
Time indication:0

did the code pop up just after changing the sensors ?

[dhjelm]

Yes/No, about 2000 KM after.
I changed the position sensors at 108000-ish KM

[VinnysS4]

Do you still have the old cam sensor or access to a new one? Seems kindof like you may have gotten a bad part...that code is common with failed adjusters but if you just changed the sensor, it could be bad. Did you get a saved log of the vcds scan?

[dhjelm]

I binned the old sensors. But, I would assume that the new once are good since the P0010 code is gone. (?) I did not get the log. I took a picture of his screen, but that is as far as I got. Have had some communication problems with mechanics in Spain. And now I moved to Poland where my language is limited to those word I learned from Borat.

[audidd777]

just wondering what would happen if I dont get my timing chain served at 100000miles?

[Mr.Wrong]

just wondering what would happen if I dont get my timing chain served at 100000miles?

Absolutely nothing*. Some run quite well over 100k mile mark on original timing components and all is fine. It all depends on your car specific symptoms and how you're utilizing it. I'm planning on extensively modifying mine for much higher output as well as multiple track and strip visits. So I'll be doing mine at 100k just as a preventative maintenance. Otherwise if I were to just dd it with occasional spirited hauling, then probably could prolong it till 125-150k miles. Also if you're planning on keeping yours for a while, then why not earlier than later. There's always a risk of one of the guides completely disintegrating at some point, depending on its current state...

[Mr. Corey]

Absolutely nothing*. Some run quite well over 100k mile mark on original timing components and all is fine. It all depends on your car specific symptoms and how you're utilizing it. I'm planning on extensively modifying mine for much higher output as well as multiple track and strip visits. So I'll be doing mine at 100k just as a preventative maintenance. Otherwise if I were to just dd it with occasional spirited hauling, then probably could prolong it till 125-150k miles. Also if you're planning on keeping yours for a while, then why not earlier than later. There's always a risk of one of the guides completely disintegrating at some point, depending on its current state...

This past summer I went through replacing everything and anything that could possibly break and I was only at 68k. I had valve stems seals started failing on me so engine had to come out anyway. Glad i did it early because as Mr wrong said those timing guides are guaranteed to fail and one of mine had a hairline crack in it 30k before the suggested replacement.... so it was only a matter of time. Vinny if you can afford it I'd recommend replacing the valve stem seals and valve guides while the engine out as well.... Add some headers and you have and an incredible car!!!!

[0396]

This past summer I went through replacing everything and anything that could possibly break and I was only at 68k. I had valve stems seals started failing on me so engine had to come out anyway. Glad i did it early because as Mr wrong said those timing guides are guaranteed to fail and one of mine had a hairline crack in it 30k before the suggested replacement.... so it was only a matter of time. Vinny if you can afford it I'd recommend replacing the valve stem seals and valve guides while the engine out as well.... Add some headers and you have and an incredible car!!!!

Quick question regarding the valve stems, are you suggesting that one should do a valve job too? Heck, I'vebeen down that road on another motor. ..it simply never stops. 100+ miles. ..Audi sucks

[Mr. Corey]

Quick question regarding the valve stems, are you suggesting that one should do a valve job too? Heck, I'vebeen down that road on another motor. ..it simply never stops. 100+ miles. ..Audi sucks

Maybe I was just unlucky because I had an early build date..... but I've seen enough threads with other members having the blow by issues over the years. So why risk another problem if you have the engine out? I agree its a love hate with Audi and the B6/7 S4. Seems like most of the problems our cars suffer from Audi changed things up and made reliable 8 cylinders in the S5 and RS4.

[VinnysS4]

This past summer I went through replacing everything and anything that could possibly break and I was only at 68k. I had valve stems seals started failing on me so engine had to come out anyway. Glad i did it early because as Mr wrong said those timing guides are guaranteed to fail and one of mine had a hairline crack in it 30k before the suggested replacement.... so it was only a matter of time. Vinny if you can afford it I'd recommend replacing the valve stem seals and valve guides while the engine out as well.... Add some headers and you have and an incredible car!!!!

I have only done valve seals one time before. Never done guides. It's a good idea, I'm just curious how much a shop would charge to change then for me I'f I brought them the heads

[Mr. Corey]

I have only done valve seals one time before. Never done guides. It's a good idea, I'm just curious how much a shop would charge to change then for me I'f I brought them the heads

I went the pricey route and did the JHM heads but my buddy had his stock ones redone for around 1200 if i remember correctly.

[TarlCabot]

I have only done valve seals one time before. Never done guides. It's a good idea, I'm just curious how much a shop would charge to change then for me I'f I brought them the heads

i had a local shop put all new guides and seals, plus surface for $600
looked brand new

any head and block shop should be able to do this, they don't have to be Audi or BMW specific