B6/B7 S4 Timing Chain FAQ / Information / Discussion Thread

[BCsniper]

go over to audirevolution.net and it should still be up.

Also I think Justincredible's motor tear down will show the removal and it's here on AZ

[jeffrey146]

Why is the OPs account terminated? Subscribed to thread for sure.

[S4toA4]

If you have a good running motor that you are pulling to be swapped into another car, what timing components would you change while the engine is out?

[BCsniper]

Everything but the chains is what I'd recommend:

Tensioners
Guides
Mechanical Adjusters
Electric Adjusters

plus all seals, o-rings, etc


If you just want the necessary avoid the adjusters as they add in ALOT to your final cost. That being said, if you do only buy the necessary, check your mechanical adjusters to see if they show wear like others have seen. If they look like this then you'll definitely want to spend the money to replace them

[cooltj50]

Anybody have info, link, or pics of a work shop manual for replacing Bank 2 Cam Adjuster/Timing Chain?

[cheetah993]

If you have to replace the chain on that side then the engine has to be removed to do so. The Bentley manual shows a great procedure on how to do it, and if you need to remove the engine then Joey from Euroaddiction has a great write up here:

http://www.euroaddiction.net/forum/b...ull-guide.html

If you want more info and pics, you can look at my engine pull here:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...Engine-Removal

And shamless plug if you need the timing tools (which you will to remove the adjuster and chains) I have them for sale in the classifieds section PM me if you have any questions about it.

[brownie711_4.2]

Very informative and pretty much cemented what I didn't want to believe.. timing chain fail....

[Omerta]

Can the engine be lowered on the subframe to save time if you have a lift?

[jmcS4]

Can the engine be lowered on the subframe to save time if you have a lift?

Yup

[Omerta]

Yup

Good stuff. Can the tensioners and guides be replaced without removing the chains/resetting the timing? Looking to do a quick refresh on them.

[gcoy]

Good stuff. Can the tensioners and guides be replaced without removing the chains/resetting the timing? Looking to do a quick refresh on them.

No, the chains come off. & timing gets set.

It is intimidating looking at the pictures! Once you are in there and you study the system things are not so bad. I did this job in my garage w no lift. I just took my time.

I can post the procedure of changing guides and tensioners if that would help...

[gcoy]

In fact, I was one day away from shipping my engine to JHM and having them do the chain service.
I pulled the motor using Joeys pull guide.


I talked to another member who had just done this service (cheetah993) His advice to me was. "If you got this far you CAN do the rest".

All I needed was that push over the cliff and pull the rear engine covers & the rest is now history.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...rs#post8960511

[Omerta]

No, the chains come off. & timing gets set.

It is intimidating looking at the pictures! Once you are in there and you study the system things are not so bad. I did this job in my garage w no lift. I just took my time.

I can post the procedure of changing guides and tensioners if that would help...

Time is my limiting factor. I don't want to run out and and get caught with my pants down the the repair. Re-timing the engine is the most sensitive time consuming part that requires more special tools.

[Qtip]

I work at an Audi dealership in sales. I purchased my 04 model 2 years ago in February with 59,000 miles on it. The car is clean and solid. At around 69k I started to hear the chain rattle at start up. One of our master techs advised me that there was no way to eliminate it once it began. I switched from the factory Castrol to Amsoil. The car was IMMEDIATELY quiet upon start up. It has not returned and now has 83k on the clock!

[Jake@JHM]

I am willing to bet money that you have a cracked guide.

Jake

[earthtodan]

My 04 makes noise intermittently, but I barely hear it anymore. When I had Rector pull the engine last year to replace the rear seal, I was able to look at the guides and they weren't cracked.

[Crusty128]

I work at an Audi dealership in sales. I purchased my 04 model 2 years ago in February with 59,000 miles on it. The car is clean and solid. At around 69k I started to hear the chain rattle at start up. One of our master techs advised me that there was no way to eliminate it once it began. I switched from the factory Castrol to Amsoil. The car was IMMEDIATELY quiet upon start up. It has not returned and now has 83k on the clock!

which grade ?

[gcoy]

My 04 makes noise intermittently, but I barely hear it anymore. When I had Rector pull the engine last year to replace the rear seal, I was able to look at the guides and they weren't cracked.

You did't need to pull the motor to change the rear seal. Just drop the transmission.

So, you went to all that work, plus removing the rear covers, and didn't change your guides or tensioners??

[Qtip]

which grade ?

Full-SAPS Synthetic 5W-40 European EFMQT, gray bottle with black label.

[Qtip]

I am willing to bet money that you have a cracked guide.

Jake

I wouldn't bet against you, Jake. Obviously, the service will need to be done at some point in time but for now, ignorance is bliss. If the rattle returns in spite of the 'fix', I will know to agressively pursue a more permanent repair. I'm hoping I have a little time to to allow me to purchase your shift trio, tune & exhaust, and suspension upgrade. The 60:40 quattro split differential also has my attention and finally the transmission 1-2 collar and 6th gear replacement.

$3000 for a timing chain service with no appreciable performance improvement is a lot to swallow with all the other goodies tempting me.

[Jake@JHM]

I wouldn't bet against you, Jake. Obviously, the service will need to be done at some point in time but for now, ignorance is bliss. If the rattle returns in spite of the 'fix', I will know to agressively pursue a more permanent repair. I'm hoping I have a little time to to allow me to purchase your shift trio, tune & exhaust, and suspension upgrade. The 60:40 quattro split differential also has my attention and finally the transmission 1-2 collar and 6th gear replacement.

$3000 for a timing chain service with no appreciable performance improvement is a lot to swallow with all the other goodies tempting me.

I completely understand . Let me know if you have any questions!

Jake

[earthtodan]

You did't need to pull the motor to change the rear seal. Just drop the transmission.

So, you went to all that work, plus removing the rear covers, and didn't change your guides or tensioners??

Well it was done under extended warranty so I didn't question it too much.

I explained to them that the timing chain tensioners tend to break, and that I'd be interested in replacing them. They said they'd never seen the problem before, and that it would be an extra $2000 of work (not covered under warranty of course). They really tried to talk me out of it. It was pretty surprising given everything I've read on AZ, but I didn't have much money at the time, and I thought, well, you don't hear about all the cars with no problems. So I skipped it.

[gcoy]

Well it was done under extended warranty so I didn't question it too much.

I explained to them that the timing chain tensioners tend to break, and that I'd be interested in replacing them. They said they'd never seen the problem before, and that it would be an extra $2000 of work (not covered under warranty of course). They really tried to talk me out of it. It was pretty surprising given everything I've read on AZ, but I didn't have much money at the time, and I thought, well, you don't hear about all the cars with no problems. So I skipped it.

I totally understand the warranty issue.

Looks to me like the shop knew it was a warranty job and milked the labor.

That is just my opinion.

[pandapod]

So I hate to muddy this thread with my own questions, but figured it'd be better than starting a brand new one. I just bought an 05.5 S4 (build date 05/05) with 138k miles on it (this car actually had 92k on it a year ago, dude I bought it from put 45K on it in a year). I got it for a decent price with the intention of having the timing chain guides/tensioners replaced for roughly $4k by my local audi expert (small shop but great work). I'd buy the Basic kit from JHM and my local guy would do all the work, and purchase any additional parts if needed (hoping none are needed!).

So my question is: Do i go ahead with the preventative maintenance or no PM? It seems like this is a sporadic event and I do not want to shell out this kind of money for a PM job that might not even need it. Will the damage inflicted due to skipped timing be worth the cost to do the PM, or can I just rebuild whatever valves (if any) once the guide/tensioner/adjuster fails? If it's gonna cost me $4,000 in PM that i may not need, do you guys think it would be wise to just wait until it fails completely and have it rebuilt? Even if that means $6,000-8,000 later down the line (one years two years 3, who knows?)...I cannot hear a rattle on start-up, but that could be due to an exhaust leak I have. The guy i bought it from says it has it, so i assume it's there.

My daily driver is an '04 A6 3.0 with 178.5k on the clock and climbing. I've already dumped a ton of money into this one and it should last me awhile, so i wont be driving the B7 every day (mostly in the summer). In fact, I'm currently scared to drive the S4 because of the timing issue, and I'm wondering if I'm just being paranoid (and I also need to register it).

So go for the PM or no? I'm gonna bring it in to the shop once I get it registered to at least fix the exhaust, and have them check over some other things. Should I stick with this plan for now and have my shop do a compression/leak down test (and prob boroscope for cylinder walls) then evaluate from there? I really would like to just put new oil in her and call it a day, and once the timing goes just fix it then.

Thanks for the guidance ahead of time...if this isnt the right place to post this i'll create a new thread...

[sea_shackF1]

...if this isnt the right place to post this i'll create a new thread...

Please don't, there are FAR too many already. Even if this is the wrong place, best to keep it clean as you said. There are many, many other existing threads that would be better for ANOTHER discussion about this as they can get long.

I'm currently scared to drive the S4 because of the timing issue..

SMH Please don't be. Hopefully this helps..........

Should I stick with this plan for now and have my shop do a compression/leak down test (and prob boroscope for cylinder walls) then evaluate from there? I really would like to just put new oil in her and call it a day, and once the timing goes just fix it then.

This is a much better place to start rather than fixing something that's not broken and may or may not break in the future.

Best to read up on the issue first as there is TONS of info about it. Learn what to look for and videos for how it sounds vs other sounds. Open the hood and you still should be able to hear the rattle over the exhaust if you do have it.

A word of caution when asking about this problem. With little to no info about your actual issue some will suggest you just suck it up and get the work done. Hey, it's not their money right? Those people seem to have no problem spending YOURS. If there is an actual problem though, many here prefer to troubleshoot FIRST. Start out with the easy or cheap fixes first, ie pcv for oil consumption increase problem.

Rattle can be considered 'normal' if it only lasts 1-2 seconds on cold start in cold weather or when the car has been sitting for a couple days. If the problems lasts longer than 3 sec and happens all the time during warm start up and warm weather, also if it throws CEL’s or runs rough then that is not good and needs to be looked into.

There have been a VERY small number that have required needing the timing components serviced which is very labor intensive and therefore expensive. I would caution that when reading up on this issue to take into account that a lot of the people with the problem have come here looking for info and help. This has made it seem the problem is much more frequent than it actually is. That then caused a ton of stress for many current owners, the thread then feeds on itself making the problem seem even more wide spread. Some cars have been abused and dumped, others were healthy but dumped because of fear of this issue. In some cases it’s one car but multiple owners which also makes the problem seem more widespread than it really is. Make no mistake about it, the problem is real, but there are very few people that even know of someone that had the problem, let alone experience it themselves. Early B6’s seem to be effected most and later B7’s the least since the components were updated.

Some have had the service done whether by necessity, as ‘preventative maintenance’ or because they didn’t like the sound only to have the rattle return even with the new and updated components. As said by others, it’s just a bad design. Do some research, learn about the issue and try not to stress out about a problem that most likely (hopefully ) will not be an actual problem on your specific car.

I personally see no reason to spend $4+ to fix a car that is showing no symptoms of a problem. Yes there have been some that seemingly didn't show any signs before failing, but again they are the exception and not the rule. It's your car, your money and your nights sleep so you can do what you want though. Either way good luck with the car and for god sakes DRIVE and ENJOY IT!!! V8

[audi05A8]

So the other day I got a few cam position sensor codes (P0345 and P0340) for both bank 1 and bank 2. Now my car is not missfiring and it still runs good except I can feel a little hesitation at times and it seems a little slugish but for the most part it is running good, the biggest change that I noticed since the codes came on is that the car is a lot louder under load. Under heavy accelaration it sounds a lot like there is a hole in the intake or exhaust. Now I have read quite a bit and it is pretty abviuos what needs to be done but before I start the tear down I was wondering if there is any chance that the sensors might be bad or something in the wiring and if there is a way to test them.

[staubach333]

So the other day I got a few cam position sensor codes (P0345 and P0340) for both bank 1 and bank 2. Now my car is not missfiring and it still runs good except I can feel a little hesitation at times and it seems a little slugish but for the most part it is running good, the biggest change that I noticed since the codes came on is that the car is a lot louder under load. Under heavy accelaration it sounds a lot like there is a hole in the intake or exhaust. Now I have read quite a bit and it is pretty abviuos what needs to be done but before I start the tear down I was wondering if there is any chance that the sensors might be bad or something in the wiring and if there is a way to test them.

My car threw the same codes, and had the exact same symptoms. Here's what broke:http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...-guide-failure

[audi05A8]

Crap, that is what I thought is going on with it. Does anyone know what my car is worth right now with about 145K on the clock with these symptoms? It has new tires and brand new clutch.

[gcoy]

That's a pretty tough question for us to answer.
Its like asking, My wife has slept with half the town, but she has a new boob job, & only weighs 115lbs. How hot do you think she is??
(just joking w you) :)

[lathdogg]

That's a pretty tough question for us to answer.
Its like asking, My wife has slept with half the town, but she has a new boob job, & only weighs 115lbs. How hot do you think she is??
(just joking w you) :)

Or better yet, how willing are you to sleep with a hot chick that has slept with half the town? She might have a cracked guide!

[staubach333]

That's a pretty tough question for us to answer.
Its like asking, My wife has slept with half the town, but she has a new boob job, & only weighs 115lbs. How hot do you think she is??
(just joking w you) :)

Haha that's too funny!

[audi05A8]

Yeah I understand it's tough to answer. Any ideas, any range where it would be with an issue like this? Like I said it is 2005 with 145k 6spd dolphin grey on black, interior is about 8 or 9, exterior about 7 or 8 with a few door dings. I am trying to get some kind of idea bc I might be putting it in the classifieds here.

[SliverJay]

Yeah I understand it's tough to answer. Any ideas, any range where it would be with an issue like this? Like I said it is 2005 with 145k 6spd dolphin grey on black, interior is about 8 or 9, exterior about 7 or 8 with a few door dings. I am trying to get some kind of idea bc I might be putting it in the classifieds here.

For the right price right and timing this is something I would jump on if it was an avant. I would think someone would buy it and build it for stage 2.

[audi05A8]

That is what I am thinking to find someone that has the time and expertise to get this car back in shape. To me this seems like huge project but for someone that did a couple of them it might not be a big deal. Overall the car is great shape but I dont have the time to mess with a big project like this. What would you say it would be worth without this issue bc I am thinking the repair seems to be about $2000-$3000.

[MrRay904]

Great Work, this was by the far the most detailed Forum on on the timing chain issue.

[sparkhed]

It's been a long few days for us. Our 05 b6 has had the cold start for two years and its always been on my mind. Wife says "you need to listen to the car". So Saturday evening we decide that we will take some time Sunday to poke around and see what we can find. I have changed out the entire front control arms, front pads and roters, replaced serpent belt and snub, fuel filter and a few other thing. I am not a mechanic but love to wrench. I was hoping for the best but expecting the worse. Intake flapper makes a little noise. Injectors rattle like a power stroke. Valve train is almost as bad but the new noise is killing me! Towed her to our trusty Indy, wait two days while debating with myself as to which level of timing set I will purchase from JHM. Get the call and the noise is coming from the timing as I suspected. Point of post, has anyone bought this stuff from GAP or somewhere else? Intermeidiate plus is what I decided to go with but JHM couldn't take order yesterday due to computers down? I need to get wife back on the road. This Lexus we borrowed from a fried is terrible!!! Any ideas? $2700 is a hard pill to swallow for a box of parts. Could I save a few buck buying somewhere else? I want high quality updated parts. Only want to do this once! Thanks!

[glebtcheb]

You don't need Intermediate Plus - Intermediate is enough.

You will never need new chains.

I just had this service done, after swapping the engine with a used (less 70K miles) one. I actually bought the minimal (which doesn't exist anymore - but basic has a lot more to offer now - and got the rest of the parts directly from Audi)

Sure it's a hard pill to swallow, just pay it, document everything (with pictures, videos, etc.) and hope that one of us will be successful in its class action test case (I am intending to do one in Canada, which will ultimately extend to AoA)... These chain guides (at least one of them) are(is) failing at the exact same spot starting at less than 40,000 miles, plus Audi has revised these parts starting in their '07 year ++ B7 models, proving their knowledge of this engineering flaw... behind the backs of their previous owners (us) and at their expense (our expense)... If we all document this and prove our point, we will be compensated.

Good Luck!

[BCsniper]

......pipe dream right there



good going on getting your car back running though!

[brooklynA42004]

Well it was done under extended warranty so I didn't question it too much.

I explained to them that the timing chain tensioners tend to break, and that I'd be interested in replacing them. They said they'd never seen the problem before, and that it would be an extra $2000 of work (not covered under warranty of course). They really tried to talk me out of it. It was pretty surprising given everything I've read on AZ, but I didn't have much money at the time, and I thought, well, you don't hear about all the cars with no problems. So I skipped it.

I called the dealer that my S4 was serviced in its entire life (I don't have the rattle) to see if the timing service was done and the service manager told me the same thing "That they'd never seen the problem before" also went to my local dealer same response, guessing its not that common of a problem also could be not to many people bring it to the dealer for the service. just my .02 cents

[SliverJay]

I called the dealer that my S4 was serviced in its entire life (I don't have the rattle) to see if the timing service was done and the service manager told me the same thing "That they'd never seen the problem before" also went to my local dealer same response, guessing its not that common of a problem also could be not to many people bring it to the dealer for the service. just my .02 cents

I was told the samething when I bought mine. Or AoA is covering it up?