Lettuce Build Thread, Fast Cars and Fast Women: Stage 2 and Beyond

[blbroo]

Holy crap, Dan!

[lettuce]

Holy crap, Dan!

It's been a long time coming.

Oh, you got that cable back, right? I forgot all about that the moment I dropped it off at the post office.

Carbon cleaning: done. BTW this was on a 2013 motor with the metal intake and 5th injector with only 26k miles on it. Yeah, that 5th injector doesn't do jack for preventing carbon buildup. Don't want carbon? Get meth. And do a carbon cleaning first, cause otherwise all those carbon chunks that get washed off your valves are going right into your combustion chambers and out your turbo's exhaust turbine. No es bueno.

[petraman]

Well that's disappointing... I thought they fixed that for 2013. Even so, I try to floor it a couple times a week (although, tbh, I usually do it anyways... haha) to help minimize buildup. Hopefully it doesn't look that bad. Pretty cool that you're going into things with basically a clean slate.

[AllroadCorbin]

For what it's worth i had a carbon cleaning done on my 2013 Allroad at 70k miles and it turned out there was almost 0 build up. My valves and rods were clean. I drove all highway and used mostly shell or Mobil and tend to drive very aggressively... Perhaps that helped.... And the fact it has been tuned since 45k


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[lettuce]

For what it's worth i had a carbon cleaning done on my 2013 Allroad at 70k miles and it turned out there was almost 0 build up. My valves and rods were clean. I drove all highway and used mostly shell or Mobil and tend to drive very aggressively... Perhaps that helped.... And the fact it has been tuned since 45k


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Well also for what it's worth, compared to my B8 motor I would also consider that 'almost 0 buildup'. Lest we forget:

[petraman]

Holy hell... how long did that take to clean?

[lettuce]

Holy hell... how long did that take to clean?

About 4 hours, and even then they weren't totally clean. With the new motor I let it soak overnight before scrubbing it. Made a huge difference. On the old motor I was in there with a screwdriver chipping away at it for hours. With the overnight soak on the new motor I just went in there with a brush and it fell right off.

The carbon buildup was also a bit 'squishier' on the new motor. The old motor's deposits were hard as a rock.

[johnnySV]

I just posted a b8.5 Engine for sale in the classifieds section, in case anyone on this thread is in the similar (unfortunate) circumstance that Mr. Lettuce is/was.

The engine is a 2014 with 28,000 miles that runs & drives perfect. the car was a rear end collision/salvage. Here is the link:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...4#post11796454

[lettuce]

lol



(Old motor. Looks like I made the right choice dumping it)

[Dub_prime]

Holy shit man... You had way more than an oil consumption problem...

[Marko S]

lol



(Old motor. Looks like I made the right choice dumping it)

Wooooooooooow......

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[pierreb]

Holy shit. Wow. That's amazing.

[avantagg]

Missing teeth? Wow, that's bad!

[Fastbke170]

lol



(Old motor. Looks like I made the right choice dumping it)

Isn't this the famed timing chain adjuster problem this year series suffers from? Could have sworn you were just in this vicinity of the timing chain recently doing other odds n ends. I'm sure your priority is getting new lump purring, but I would love to hear your autopsy report when you have time. I'm thinking mileage, mods and possibly former owner care might have something to do with it.

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[mecg]

lol



(Old motor. Looks like I made the right choice dumping it)

That'll buff right out......

[blbroo]

lol



(Old motor. Looks like I made the right choice dumping it)

Shite

[VNA4]

Wtf is that? How could this had happened?


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[The Infiltrator]

lol



(Old motor. Looks like I made the right choice dumping it)

Oh damn, I don't even know what to say.

[Dub_prime]

When I saw it I said "Nom,Nom, Nom"

[lettuce]

Isn't this the famed timing chain adjuster problem this year series suffers from? Could have sworn you were just in this vicinity of the timing chain recently doing other odds n ends. I'm sure your priority is getting new lump purring, but I would love to hear your autopsy report when you have time. I'm thinking mileage, mods and possibly former owner care might have something to do with it.

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This is under the lower timing cover, I was never down there. And while the commonly-faulty chain tensioner is right there in the picture, it's on a different chain system. The one with the missing teeth is only spinning the balance shafts. I can't for the life of me imagine what could have caused this. And I really can't wait to find out where those teeth went.

[lettuce]

[Rollin Thunder]

Back togethor already?? Your a machine!! Forget dealers and 3rd party mechanics, I need to take the ride for Lettuce's professionalism and handiness. And maybe to pick your brain for everything possible. You've beyond guided me in a few mods. Keep the experiences and knowledge coming sir!!!

[lettuce]

Back togethor already?? Your a machine!! Forget dealers and 3rd party mechanics, I need to take the ride for Lettuce's professionalism and handiness. And maybe to pick your brain for everything possible. You've beyond guided me in a few mods. Keep the experiences and knowledge coming sir!!!

Thanks man. Cracked the first bolt Saturday afternoon, had it bombing down my neighborhood 6 days later. And that was with putting in a full 40+ hour workweek and spending 2 days waiting on parts.

Going to post a big writeup on doing the B8 - B8.5 motor swap tomorrow. 90% of it was plug and play with only a few parts I had to swap over. Overall it was a relative walk in the park. This was about as straightforward as an engine swap gets.

[OzeyeruZ]

Awesome Job Lettuce! You're like the McGyver of Audi's!. Taking advantage of the E85 capabilities or no? I imagine you would have to change over fuel lines etc.?

Oz

[lettuce]

Awesome Job Lettuce! You're like the McGyver of Audi's!. Taking advantage of the E85 capabilities or no? I imagine you would have to change over fuel lines etc.?

Oz

No E85 for me. From what I can surmise I'd need to swap over a B8.5 ECU and wiring harness as well, and that was definitely outside the scope of this project. All I wanted was for my car to be exactly like it was before, just with zero problems. We're looking good so far.

[lettuce]

So as you are all probably aware at this point, my old engine's problems had been mounting. Mainly surrounding the oiling system. From burning a quart every 200 miles (thanks, Audi) to the more recent problem of losing oil pressure. That, along with a 'mysterious' whining noise (mystery solved a few posts up) that had recently developed, along with some perpetually-leaking seals (thanks, ECS catch can), led me to the conclusion that it'd make more sense at this point to just start fresh with a nice new engine. That link goes to a post I made with pics and details of the engine, but long story short, it's a B8.5 facelift motor with 26k miles.



There are a few minor differences between this motor and my B8, and this post will highlight them all in case anyone wants to go down this same path. I'm not going to go over the engine swap step-by-step, bolt-by-bolt. I'm going to assume if you're attempting something like this that you've either done a swap before, or are very mechanically-inclined. It was a fairly straightforward job but it's not for the faint of heart. All in all it took me 6 days total, and that was with 2 days waiting on parts and working a full 40+ hour workweek. If I had everything all set ahead of time, all the parts in and a completely free weekend, I could easily see getting started after work on a Friday and having it ready to go for work again Monday morning. I generally don't like to work like that if I don't have to though so I took my time. I also did a carbon cleaning on the new motor before tossing it in. I'd always recommend doing this anytime it's convenient.

First thing's first, cool pictures of the process.

First step, plastic sheeting.



Pull the nose off and dump the fluids.



Then start tearing her apart.







Rip that sucker out of there.





Put it outside just in case it's contagious so it doesn't infect your nice, new motor.



Then put the new one in.





Start bolting everything back up. You've probably noticed all the blue tags. With any engine swap, and especially with one using a wiring harness as complicated as this one, it's a great idea to mark off everything you disconnect with where it goes. It'll save you a ton of time and aggravation when hooking it all back up. You'll also notice here a nice new idler and tensioner pulley installed in the accessory belt system. Not necessary to do, but better than having to do it later with the nose on the car.







Take her for a test drive and marvel at your handywork .



No CELs, no weird whining noises, no clouds of black smoke billowing out of the tailpipes, nothing. I hadn't realized just how loud my old motor had gotten with all the ticking, whining, subtle knocking, and hollow scraping sounds. I can barely even tell this motor is on it's so quiet. All I hear is the exhaust and the turbo. Just the way it should be.



I also reused my stock driver's side motor mount. It looked perfect, and I had heard of people having issues with vibration when using the 034 mounts on both sides (I upgraded to their street density mount for the passenger side last year). So I kept the 034 mount on the passenger side and the stock mount on the driver's side.




Now, as for the differences between these two engines, there are four main things.

- Intake manifold and fuel rail
- Oil filter housing/accessory bracket
- Auxiliary water pump
- Crankshaft position sensor

The intake manifold and accompanying fuel rail is the biggest difference between these two motors. The metal intake B8.5s are E85 compatible, and have a 5th injector and alcohol sensor with accompanying fuel lines and wiring. In order to take advantage of this you'll need an ECU and wiring harness out of a B8.5, and I was not interested in doing that at this time. Now, while these manifolds and fuel systems are very different, they are very easily swappable. Like Legos. Everything on them is different, but the connections to and from the manifold are nearly identical. Even the mounting point for the turbo coolant line bracket is in the same exact spot. You'll have to swap over the main rubber fuel line that goes to the input of your high pressure fuel pump, as the facelift engine has a slightly different configuration, and I believe some of the vacuum lines may be routed slightly differently on the back (not sure, the new motor didn't come with them), so just swap over your old ones with your plastic intake and you'll be fine. Lastly there are the two long, thin studs on the lower corners of the mounting flange on the head which the manifold slides onto. The B8.5 studs are slightly longer, so swap these out as well.



Also I didn't realize this, but the new 'metal' intakes are still half plastic. The whole flapper assembly, PCV inlets, vacuum attachments, are all in the plastic portion. I remember reading a few people on this forum considering attempting a swap from the B8 to B8.5 manifolds in order to alleviate issues they were having with blown plastic manifolds. I've never had an issue with my intake manifold personally, which is funny because I've had an issue with literally everything else on this motor, but if you are considering this due to your intake getting blown up, I wouldn't bother. Most of the failure points on the old manifold are still present on the new one. Just stick with your plastic one until it breaks, and then replace it with another plastic one. They're like $180 and mine's still going strong, so I wouldn't worry about it.



The oil filter housing/accessory bracket has to be reused from your old motor due to the fact that the facelift B8.5s have electronic steering, not hydraulic like your lowly B8 (jokes on them, hydraulic is better), so they don't have a power steering pump. The B8.5 bracket is missing the mounting provision for this, but no matter, they are interchangeable, so just reuse your old one. Here's a comparison of the two (B8.5 on the left, B8 on the right):



And here's the old bracket on the new motor.



The auxiliary water pump could possibly be left alone, but I swapped my old one in anyway. The only difference I could see here is the mounting location. The B8 version mounts to the power steering bracket, and since that was removed with the B8.5s, they relocated it to the rear of the block. I figure you'd probably run into an issue with the wiring harness if you don't swap it out with your old one, as they are quite a distance apart, so the clip may not reach. Better to just use the old one.

Here are the two held up next to each other. Red = B8, Blue = B8.5.





Lastly the crankshaft position sensor. This one I didn't even realize until I was almost ready to start it up. I was double checking everything and found a lone blue-tagged clip left over hanging down under the intake/water pump area. Went to plug it in and it wouldn't fit. Turns out they updated the CPS, but luckily the hole it mounts into and mounting bracket/screw are unchanged, so they are easily swappable. Here is where this is located when the car is otherwise completely assembled. This is under the intake manifold at the rear of the block, right between the lower oil separator and the transmission bellhousing:



This is a better view of it on my old block sitting on the stand at this point.



And here are the two next to each other. The thicker one on the left with the green o-ring is the B8 version you need to keep. The thinner one with the red o-ring on the right is the new B8.5 version and won't plug into your harness.





That's it for differences, everything else is identical. Here is a list of parts off the top of my head that you'll either need, or would be good to have to assist you in your swap:

NEED
- 7 Intake manifold bolts
- 6 Motor mount bolts (2 for mount to block, 4 for mount to subframe)
- 3 Flywheel bolts
- Turbo oil/coolant line bolts
- Crush washers for turbo coolant lines
- Gallon of coolant
- 5 qts oil and filter
- Hose clamps (some of the fuel and/or vacuum lines you need to disconnect in the rear of the motor have one-time-use clamps on them, which you'll need to replace)

NICE TO HAVE
- New rear main seal (probably don't have to if its a low-mileage motor, but it's a lot easier to change out with it out of the car. I bought one but decided not to change it out, personally)
- If ^ then tool to hold flywheel while you unbolt it
- New tensioner and idler pulley for accessory belt (changing them with the nose on the car is a pain in the ass and I've heard the bearings on them can go and they'll get annoying. Probably don't have to do this, but I did)

If I can think of anything else, I'll add it. That's it for now. Hope my post was helpful, and happy swapping!

[pierreb]

You're a damn hero. Mad props for taking the plunge and writing it up.

[shaunm82]

Dude, this is freakin awesome!!! Insanely faster than I had imagined also!

This is such an excellent write up,so thanks for taking the time to post this Dan! And lol @ the contagious comment! The best part is us getting to see you enjoy your car without any major worries/problems popping up!

[lettuce]

Dude, this is freakin awesome!!! Insanely faster than I had imagined also!

This is such an excellent write up,so thanks for taking the time to post this Dan! And lol @ the contagious comment! The best part is us getting to see you enjoy your car without any major worries/problems popping up!

You're a damn hero. Mad props for taking the plunge and writing it up.

Thanks guys, I appreciate it. Getting this thing back together with this nice new motor is a great feeling for sure. Now I can actually enjoy the damn thing!

[blbroo]

[Project Quattro]

Nicely done man. And, having owned both a B8 and a B8.5, you're completely correct about the steering. Hydraulic PS is far better than electric.


Sent from the Pedal Responce boardroom

[lettuce]

Did a little more investigating regarding the old motor failure, and it seems the balance shaft gear walked itself off of the shaft, which would have caused the chain to ride it at an angle which is most likely what broke the teeth. I don't know if this was a sudden, catastrophic event, or if it had slowly walked itself off over time, but either way, what the fuck.

Same gear from the spare block I have:



Broken gear from old motor I tore out:



You can see the center bore of the gear is visible in the bad one, while the good one is fully pressed in. Unbelievable.

[johnnySV]

fantastic autopsy.

any recourse with AudiUSA ?


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[lettuce]

fantastic autopsy.

any recourse with AudiUSA ?

I sent them an email with these two pictures asking for an explanation, but I'm way past the point of even entertaining the idea of any sort of help with this motor from them.

[johnnySV]

yea, but still, you deserve an answer!


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[b6Hate4]

Maybe AoA will give you a nice commemorative T-shirt

[Dub_prime]

Pretty sure that's why the old TDI did the balance shaft delete.

[petraman]

So, in your opinion, was this one of those "pay to play" scenarios or an actual defect?

[avantagg]

This is awesome. Well done man. You've got some serious skills!

[b6Hate4]

You now have another spare ko3 that could be sold to recoup some cash too.