Newest and biggest injector for the FSI

[Charles.waite]

Something else.....?

(Yes I'm deliberately being annoying, haha)

[StatusQuo]

I've herd some talk on the RS3 injectors. I'm still on the hunt finding the best injectors I can find

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[al3k]

I've herd some talk on the RS3 injectors. I'm still on the hunt finding the best injectors I can find

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There are some porsche injectors which flow more than the RS3, are you doing e85?

[james12lucy]

I posted the part numbers earlier in this thread.


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[Charles.waite]

Someone needs to just make a damn chart with the injector part number and flow rate. It shouldn't be this hard to keep track of this stuff...

[canadianA4B7]

start posting info I chart it.

[Charles.waite]

start posting info I chart it.

Who me? I don't know shit, haha. I just get a bit peeved at the scattering of info around here and the caginess of some people. I get you don't want to throw bad info out into the wild m, especially if the injectors don't work. But yea, the whole "I may have a solution but I don't want to talk about it" shtick is lame. Our cars are old as hell now. Most tuners have moved on to newer/bigger/better platforms. There's no reason to be cagey about a decade old platform that's been mostly abandoned but tuners.

[aluthman]

https://www.nostrumshop.com/product-...ect-injectors/

[canadianA4B7]

No sorry not you anyone with injectors, part numbers, flow rates.

Wasn't pointing fingers. Just as you I only know some info. There's so much more info on the euro part of the interweb but a lot of it is in different languages.

[aluthman]

From what I've read, LNF injectors from GM, Opel injectors, and some of the newer stuff from VAG are options fir us. Unfortunately none are plug and play, and they are only marginal increases over S3 injectors. No one seems to be in agreement on flowrates though. That is probably due to there not being a standard benchmark pressure to compare them all at.

[Okedokey]

Charles you crack me up mate, lol. :)

- - - Updated - - -

Someone needs to just make a damn chart with the injector part number and flow rate. It shouldn't be this hard to keep track of this stuff...

Call of the year! Ive been looking all over for this. Would be a great sticky - aka like the spark plug one.

[seal66]

No being cagey or dodgey by anymeans. Just waiting for more concrete evidence before I saw anything else.

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[canadianA4B7]

PM me a part number I'll help you out.


I believe I've found most info here: http://www.fuelinjector.citymaker.co...low_Rates.html

Currently wrenching. But all of the rs3 numbers came up on it, the rs4 units and the S3 were all available or searchable on this site. But don't flame me if I'm wrong.

[turbo944s2]

Canadian, the fact that the RS4 injectors are blowing so much black smoke proves incomplete combustion. We aren't even burning all of the fuel they are producing. The problem isn't the injector size it's the tune.

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[canadianA4B7]

Yes I'm well aware. I think with the requested air the ie manifold will require the black smoke may not be an issue for me. The additional fuel may be equal to the requested of manifold. They say 20% more air, and to my knowledge the injectors are approx 18% more fueling. If I'm ass hats backwards I fully understand the black smoke. But u know simple basic math will state I'm somewhat close to what I would need with running rs4 injectors. Ok Firefox himself is running them and has made serious power. UM tuned his car. Not sure how I can figure this out other then diving into it and trying the injectors.

Please if I'm not correct at all let me know. In my brain it looks pretty damn near close to what I need. If I have to pay revlimit to tune. I may go that route.

[turbo944s2]

Hmm his car stalled and blew black smoke too and he is running s3 injectors now. Unless a tuner is willing to spends 100s of hours tuning a car they will never get it right. We might have to put in the work ourselves

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[canadianA4B7]

Hmm his car stalled and blew black smoke too and he is running s3 injectors now. Unless a tuner is willing to spends 100s of hours tuning a car they will never get it right. We might have to put in the work ourselves

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http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...d-S3-injectors

I believe he is running rs4 injectors still. He has his S3 for sale.

[derrek]

Carl's car is running the injectors Seth is talking about now. Even when he ran the rs4's and made 500whp it wasn't for more then a few hundred rpm then dropped down to 250whp at redline.


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[turbo944s2]

Hmm probably something more experimental, or reverted back to stock intake manifold

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[canadianA4B7]

Carl's car is running the injectors Seth is talking about now. Even when he ran the rs4's and made 500whp it wasn't for more then a few hundred rpm then dropped down to 250whp at redline.


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Oh wow. Now that's interesting. I feel trying to reach lesser goals on the rs4 or S3 should be an easier task to achieve?? My major concern is matching fueling to intake requests.

[seal66]

Yea me and carl run the same injectors now. He jumped on them once we had them running in my car properly.

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[canadianA4B7]

Yea me and carl run the same injectors now. He jumped on them once we had them running in my car properly.

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Next time you pull intake manifold please photo and post pic of these mystery unknown injectors. if you wouldn't mind.

[Okedokey]

im confused. why the secrecy?

[canadianA4B7]

I think it's blue waters that's installed them. Maybe?? It seems like they are trying something new and either aren't confident in their decision or are trying to monopolize on this in the future. Big companies don't like to have ppl installing their own stuff as its a loss for them. Just my thoughts on it. They may just be being cautious so they don't cause others issues.

I brought this back from a while back. Hoping to lock down some new ideas/plans for those getting into big turbos these days. That and I have to figure out fueling for my build.

[Charles.waite]

I think it's blue waters that's installed them. Maybe?? It seems like they are trying something new and either aren't confident in their decision or are trying to monopolize on this in the future. Big companies don't like to have ppl installing their own stuff as its a loss for them. Just my thoughts on it. They may just be being cautious so they don't cause others issues.

I brought this back from a while back. Hoping to lock down some new ideas/plans for those getting into big turbos these days. That and I have to figure out fueling for my build.

That's always been my understanding but I haven't been following many of the builds here so I'm not certain.

And not accusing anyone of being overly secretive or whatever, just feel like it would be awesome if we had a:

"I run 07k111222b injector. My peak MAF readings are 400g/s. My AFRs are in check at WOT. These injectors are 550cc equivalent (however you would convert a DI injector flow rate to more standard port injection flow)."

And I get that there is experimentation going on and people are always trying new things but it seems like that information loop is consistently not getting closed. Or ends with a PM me. Or X tuner said they're from a Porsche (hint, Porsche makes a ton of models and engines). A little more specificity would be super awesome. Though I get when tuner pushes limits they want to be able to capitalize on their R&D and also don't want the exposure on forums of "BobTuning said to use this injector and now I'm blowing black smoke and my car runs like shit! They're idiots never have them tune your car!!".

I guess I just feel like secrecy is okay when it's a new platform, but the b7s rolled off the line over a decade ago. I don't see the market being large enough to warrant the "competitive advantage" thing. That's all.

Also i tend to be crankypants in the morning so please don't anyone take offense to this or think I'm calling anyone out specifically.

[canadianA4B7]

Naw your good Charles. It's a 10 year old platform and understandable keeping things under hats. ive been reaching out over to Euro side of the world for info. They seem a bit more open with info. im sure they have good reason keeping it quiet for now. All it will take is an individual to try something new. And then post up the info. Kinda like my plan! The new rs4 injectors from vids I've seen don't blow out that much of a black cloud. Perhaps the units I'm going to try will be decent.

Seal66 does your car puff out black exhaust with these injectors? Or has the tuning been corrected to stop this?

[james12lucy]

Naw your good Charles. It's a 10 year old platform and understandable keeping things under hats. ive been reaching out over to Euro side of the world for info. They seem a bit more open with info. im sure they have good reason keeping it quiet for now. All it will take is an individual to try something new. And then post up the info. Kinda like my plan! The new rs4 injectors from vids I've seen don't blow out that much of a black cloud. Perhaps the units I'm going to try will be decent.

Seal66 does your car puff out black exhaust with these injectors? Or has the tuning been corrected to stop this?

I'm thinking we should be paying attention to tuners focusing on the MK6 Golf R. I mean, they're running the exact same FSI setup as we are, and they're throwing down massive numbers. I'll keep searching across the pond (I did come up with part numbers for Euro RS4 and Porsche 996 injectors that work) and see what I can find.

Ultimately, whatever injectors that are out there are going to need fine tuning to work efficiently. It's no different than the TDI world; too much fuel and not enough combustion will lead to smoke and hover EGT. I wouldn't worry about black smoke while off boost, if it dissipates while making boost. We could learn a thing or two from the oil burning crowd!


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[aluthman]

I don't think the 996 was DI.

[aluthman]

I think injector adapters will end up being the way to go for those wanting to stay purely DI. It opens up lots more possibilities. You could also machine the head, but that's a lot more of a permanent modification.

[james12lucy]

I don't think the 996 was DI.

Sorry Adam, 997.


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[canadianA4B7]

It seems like the euro rs4 units cud be quite a bit better then the American ones. Have been chatting on the phone this morning. If the USA RS4 units only produce 10% more fuel (I had read the euro rs4 were up to 18% more fuel) I guess the worst thing I cud do is not run the car at max power all the time. Which I'm fine with. Having a more drive able bad ass b7 A4 to me is more important then risking blowing a very pricey hunk of steel under the hood to smithereens. So what if I'm not making 45-100psi the car was a blast to drive on all stages I've tested. At this point I feel I'm just wanting to drive it around rather then spending hours a week wrenching, laying on my back in the driveway.

For me, get car running on mild tune with new intake and S3 injectors. After finding a healthy level of fuel or if I max them out too early then I can toss in the euro RS4 (that include the harness and new plug ins) units and go from there. If I get only 10% more fuel for what I paid it's going to be worth every penny.

[NostrumEnergy]

Going to jump in here and see if we can help. Some one posted our website link in an earlier piece, so we wanted to be sure are helping if we can. I see some comments about RS4-S3, etc and issues with black smoke, as well as questions about stock OE fuel injectors, so here we go:

Some basics:
EA113 based engines (BPY/BPG/) codes use the Bosch HDEV gen 1 design. These injectors have a single hole, spray directed for a fairly simple combustion system. Max pressure is also fairly low compared to HDEV 5 (150bar if I remember correctly) so be careful when trying to "re-purpose" these in an EA888 architecture engine. The biggest challenge is the injector outline, where HDEV1 has a longer solenoid body configuration than the HDEV 5. We've never tried to package an HDEV 1 in an HDEV 5 cylinder head, so it would be interesting to know more about that.

TTS (to '15) / Golf R mk6 engine codes CDMA/CRZA actually still used the HDEV 1 injector design, while the rest of the family moved on to HDEV 5 with all the EA888 derivatives (of which there are too many IMO). These are a higher flow rate Bosch part numbers 0 261 500 037 (~14 g/sec @100bar). If you attempt to use these, absolutely expect some combustion quality issues, but, yes, you can make more power. Its not nice power, but power non the less.

There are several Bosch part numbers for the EA888 family:
Bosch 0 261 500 162 is the current released part number for the majority of the EA888s (g1/g2) family in engine codes CCTA CBFA CAEB CAED CETA CPPA CPLA, used in the entire lineup of VW-Audi family vehicles. 12.7g/sec@100bar
Bosch 0 261 500 244 is the highest flow of the HDEV 5 EA888 injectors and is used in the new S3, TTS, TT and Golf R mk7, GTi mk7. These will run a higher fuel pressure and should be completely reverse compatible with the other EA888 engine codes. We believe this is about ~15 g/sec @100 bar, but we need to test a larger sample size.
Now the "Big" injector from Ecotec that everyone talks about is Bosch 0 261 500 055, and is from the Ecotec 2.0T LNF engine code. Bosch discontinued that part number, so if you want them, you better find them soon. 15.5 g/sec@100bar

When ever you use an injector that is not spray targeted for that particular combustion system, there will be some loss in combustion efficiency. However, re-purposing (taking an injector form one application and using it in another different application) is a better option than making an attempt at drilling or EDM'd a single hole down the middle of the injector nozzle. Destruction of the spray pattern like that (with a big central hole) will cause a significant amount of cylinder wall & piston crevice ring impingement. Not an immediate concern, because happiness will occur as you make more power, but a likely "knock knock" joke from one of your piston rings failing after some mileage accumulation is inevitable.

Be careful with attempting to re-purpose another manufacturer's injectors. Continental (3.0 TFSI SC, most Porsches) have a completely different current drive profile and may not open correctly. Denso injectors from the 3.5L Ecoboost flow a lot (16.5g/sec @100bar) but have a maximum opening pressure of 150bar, so if you are running EA888 with 180bar, you will fail to open at full load and see lean knock events.

Our injectors are massive compared to stock OE injectors. 50% to 80% higher flow rate. With a HP fuel pump, it is a great option for forcing a short block replacement....... Our customers are usually "big build" customers making well over 550hp.

As we get more data we will keep updating.
We have not tested any RS4 injectors, and I will check with the guys in the lab.

Hope this helps some.
-Frank

[canadianA4B7]

Frank thank you. I am sending PM with a part number/injector that's stating 18% more flow then the s3 injectors. I don't seem to see it elsewhere. Maybe you have im the info I'm looking for.

[Okedokey]

Going to jump in here and see if we can help. Some one posted our website link in an earlier piece, so we wanted to be sure are helping if we can. I see some comments about RS4-S3, etc and issues with black smoke, as well as questions about stock OE fuel injectors, so here we go:

Some basics:
EA113 based engines (BPY/BPG/) codes use the Bosch HDEV gen 1 design. These injectors have a single hole, spray directed for a fairly simple combustion system. Max pressure is also fairly low compared to HDEV 5 (150bar if I remember correctly) so be careful when trying to "re-purpose" these in an EA888 architecture engine. The biggest challenge is the injector outline, where HDEV1 has a longer solenoid body configuration than the HDEV 5. We've never tried to package an HDEV 1 in an HDEV 5 cylinder head, so it would be interesting to know more about that.

TTS (to '15) / Golf R mk6 engine codes CDMA/CRZA actually still used the HDEV 1 injector design, while the rest of the family moved on to HDEV 5 with all the EA888 derivatives (of which there are too many IMO). These are a higher flow rate Bosch part numbers 0 261 500 037 (~14 g/sec @100bar). If you attempt to use these, absolutely expect some combustion quality issues, but, yes, you can make more power. Its not nice power, but power non the less.

There are several Bosch part numbers for the EA888 family:
Bosch 0 261 500 162 is the current released part number for the majority of the EA888s (g1/g2) family in engine codes CCTA CBFA CAEB CAED CETA CPPA CPLA, used in the entire lineup of VW-Audi family vehicles. 12.7g/sec@100bar
Bosch 0 261 500 244 is the highest flow of the HDEV 5 EA888 injectors and is used in the new S3, TTS, TT and Golf R mk7, GTi mk7. These will run a higher fuel pressure and should be completely reverse compatible with the other EA888 engine codes. We believe this is about ~15 g/sec @100 bar, but we need to test a larger sample size.
Now the "Big" injector from Ecotec that everyone talks about is Bosch 0 261 500 055, and is from the Ecotec 2.0T LNF engine code. Bosch discontinued that part number, so if you want them, you better find them soon. 15.5 g/sec@100bar

When ever you use an injector that is not spray targeted for that particular combustion system, there will be some loss in combustion efficiency. However, re-purposing (taking an injector form one application and using it in another different application) is a better option than making an attempt at drilling or EDM'd a single hole down the middle of the injector nozzle. Destruction of the spray pattern like that (with a big central hole) will cause a significant amount of cylinder wall & piston crevice ring impingement. Not an immediate concern, because happiness will occur as you make more power, but a likely "knock knock" joke from one of your piston rings failing after some mileage accumulation is inevitable.

Be careful with attempting to re-purpose another manufacturer's injectors. Continental (3.0 TFSI SC, most Porsches) have a completely different current drive profile and may not open correctly. Denso injectors from the 3.5L Ecoboost flow a lot (16.5g/sec @100bar) but have a maximum opening pressure of 150bar, so if you are running EA888 with 180bar, you will fail to open at full load and see lean knock events.

Our injectors are massive compared to stock OE injectors. 50% to 80% higher flow rate. With a HP fuel pump, it is a great option for forcing a short block replacement....... Our customers are usually "big build" customers making well over 550hp.

As we get more data we will keep updating.
We have not tested any RS4 injectors, and I will check with the guys in the lab.

Hope this helps some.
-Frank

Thanks so much for this mate. Great to have you guys come on with actual details. not that I understand it all :)

[Charles.waite]

Awesome stuff! Thanks @NostrumEnergy! Tons of great info in there.

[seal66]

So really the only reason's I haven't giving out what injectors I am using is this,

I brought up the injector to BW and they are running with it in terms of tuning and creating a PNP kit. As for testing, we are making sure that things that need to be done in order for the injectors work and hold up long term to power. Saying that, I can tell you that they provided way more head room over s3's and rs4 injectors. Remember I run E85 on my setup with a k04 and now have plenty of headroom to finally move up to a bigger turbo. Downside, my low side hates me lol.

So far the injectors are in two b7's. And they work great. No black smoke issues at all even on 91 and E85.

It may just be me, but when I test something that I came forward with I like to make sure its going to work before coming forward with it. For example the UM E85 sniffer kit for the b7. Its more or less me waiting to bring something worthwhile to the table that works.

Also, we have been looking into a fix for the low side. Car is going to be heading into the shop soon for BW and UM to apply the low side fix. I have another low side option that I am discussing with BW and UM. just idea's not concrete yet. We have talked about going back to old school low side fueling but you would have to code out the lpfp controller.

If anyone has an questions just ask and I'll answer what I can. I wish I had logs from when the car was running before it decided to blow the hpfp off the studs again last year. I never got around to logging the low side with duty cycle and what not.

[aluthman]

Going to jump in here and see if we can help. Some one posted our website link in an earlier piece, so we wanted to be sure are helping if we can. I see some comments about RS4-S3, etc and issues with black smoke, as well as questions about stock OE fuel injectors, so here we go:

Some basics:
EA113 based engines (BPY/BPG/) codes use the Bosch HDEV gen 1 design. These injectors have a single hole, spray directed for a fairly simple combustion system. Max pressure is also fairly low compared to HDEV 5 (150bar if I remember correctly) so be careful when trying to "re-purpose" these in an EA888 architecture engine. The biggest challenge is the injector outline, where HDEV1 has a longer solenoid body configuration than the HDEV 5. We've never tried to package an HDEV 1 in an HDEV 5 cylinder head, so it would be interesting to know more about that.

TTS (to '15) / Golf R mk6 engine codes CDMA/CRZA actually still used the HDEV 1 injector design, while the rest of the family moved on to HDEV 5 with all the EA888 derivatives (of which there are too many IMO). These are a higher flow rate Bosch part numbers 0 261 500 037 (~14 g/sec @100bar). If you attempt to use these, absolutely expect some combustion quality issues, but, yes, you can make more power. Its not nice power, but power non the less.

There are several Bosch part numbers for the EA888 family:
Bosch 0 261 500 162 is the current released part number for the majority of the EA888s (g1/g2) family in engine codes CCTA CBFA CAEB CAED CETA CPPA CPLA, used in the entire lineup of VW-Audi family vehicles. 12.7g/sec@100bar
Bosch 0 261 500 244 is the highest flow of the HDEV 5 EA888 injectors and is used in the new S3, TTS, TT and Golf R mk7, GTi mk7. These will run a higher fuel pressure and should be completely reverse compatible with the other EA888 engine codes. We believe this is about ~15 g/sec @100 bar, but we need to test a larger sample size.
Now the "Big" injector from Ecotec that everyone talks about is Bosch 0 261 500 055, and is from the Ecotec 2.0T LNF engine code. Bosch discontinued that part number, so if you want them, you better find them soon. 15.5 g/sec@100bar

When ever you use an injector that is not spray targeted for that particular combustion system, there will be some loss in combustion efficiency. However, re-purposing (taking an injector form one application and using it in another different application) is a better option than making an attempt at drilling or EDM'd a single hole down the middle of the injector nozzle. Destruction of the spray pattern like that (with a big central hole) will cause a significant amount of cylinder wall & piston crevice ring impingement. Not an immediate concern, because happiness will occur as you make more power, but a likely "knock knock" joke from one of your piston rings failing after some mileage accumulation is inevitable.

Be careful with attempting to re-purpose another manufacturer's injectors. Continental (3.0 TFSI SC, most Porsches) have a completely different current drive profile and may not open correctly. Denso injectors from the 3.5L Ecoboost flow a lot (16.5g/sec @100bar) but have a maximum opening pressure of 150bar, so if you are running EA888 with 180bar, you will fail to open at full load and see lean knock events.

Our injectors are massive compared to stock OE injectors. 50% to 80% higher flow rate. With a HP fuel pump, it is a great option for forcing a short block replacement....... Our customers are usually "big build" customers making well over 550hp.

As we get more data we will keep updating.
We have not tested any RS4 injectors, and I will check with the guys in the lab.

Hope this helps some.
-Frank

Great info but I think you maybe missed what we're trying to do. We've got EA113 engines and are looking at using some of the newer injectors in place of our older hdev1 style injectors, not the other way around.

[canadianA4B7]

Great info but I think you maybe missed what we're trying to do. We've got EA113 engines and are looking at using some of the newer injectors in place of our older hdev1 style injectors, not the other way around.

I kinda wondered about this too. It is the other way around what we are looking for isn't it? The info is handy informative.

I think the message I sent direct should get him thinking the way we need. I sent him the part numbers for the next gen injectors I want to fit into our ea113 engine.

[canadianA4B7]

So it's decided. The gen 2 injectors are going into my car when they arrive, dotuning confirmed they are working units with much success. And they have tuned with them in the past.

Fueling seems to be one less thing I'm going to worry about. Adding meth will be in my next steps for the build.

[canadianA4B7]

Injectors have arrived. Sale advertised wiring harness included but did not come with the package. Wonderful! So I'll be looking to pick up a used harness hopefully in classifieds being it will be hacked I'm hoping for a donation. At the same time I'll now need to source the connectors number below which looks to be a connector used for a few different things. Referenced from earlier in these pages I should be able to make these into a useable harness and should be quite simple to make.

Part number: 4H0 973 702A anyone with access or can point me to these please feel free to provide a link or add so I can purchase.

Also searching for the injector install clips for these units which I'm coming up short on finding. I hope one of the retailers may have these in stock. Or likely local dealer perhaps the TSI injector clips will work as they do seem very close in design.