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  1. #1
    Veteran Member Four Rings CorneliusRox's Avatar
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    A lot of good Alignment info

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    My buddy sent me this from the bimmer forum. It has a lot of stuff specific to e36 M3's, but it also has a lot of really good general info.

    Here is the link:
    http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=995556

    Here is what I chopped out (and edited slightly) for you guys:


    Q. What is the Stock B7 A4 Alignment Adjustability?
    A: A stock B7 A4 has the following adjustments - front toe, rear toe and rear camber.

    Q. Can only certain shops align my B7 A4?
    A: There is nothing special about aligning your B7 A4. But the factory specs are terrible and you can forget about them.

    Q: Can I just take my car into a shop and ask to get it aligned?
    A: Only if you dont care about performance and tire wear.

    Q: What the hell does that mean?
    A: If you bought a B7 A4, you obviously are looking for performance (or if you bought it for image, status, pimping, flossing, hardparking, etc, please GTFO! ). The Audi factory specs care nothing for performance or tire wear, only for safety and a low # of lawsuits. YES I AM SAYING THAT THE Audi FACTORY SPECS WILL NOT ONLY GIVE YOU POOR HANDLING AND PERFORMANCE, IT MAY ALSO WEAR OUT YOUR TIRES PREMATURELY.

    Q: Ok, so what is a good performance alignment for the street with good tire wear?
    A: Here are the specs:

    Front
    Camber: -2.5 deg (per side)
    Toe: 0 (or 0.10 to 0.20 deg total toe in for mostly highway driving)

    Rear
    Camber: -1.5 to -2 deg (per side)
    Toe: 0.20 total toe in (IIRC this is 1/8" total toe in)

    Q: Can I get a good Performance Alignment for the Street with stock adjustments?
    A: NO! You cannot get a good performance alignment for the street with a bone stock B7 A4, or even with a modified suspension, without front camber adjustment. You need some form of front camber adjustment that doesn't come stock.

    Q: Why do I need front camber adjustment?
    A: Here is the short explanation (long explanation explained later)...your B7 A4 came from the factory with an alignment that gives the rear tires more grip than the front. This means, when you are going around a turn (say an off ramp) and you are at the limits (tires are squealing), your front tires are giving up and the car does not turn. That is much safer than if the rear tires gave up first and you are now spinning around. But when the front tires give up long before the rear tires, you are giving up a lot of cornering ability vs. a car that all 4 tires give up at the same time. And a car that wont turn feels like crap.



    Q: How much negative camber is safe to run on the street?
    A: Up to -3 deg per side is safe to run on the street, but you will likely see some inner tire wear over time. (I used to run -3.4 deg camber per side on the street, with about 0.20 total toe OUT, and I got inner tire wear...about 2/32 more than the mid-outside of the tire). Now I run -2.5 deg camber per side and 0 toe on the street, and max out my camber plates negative at the track only.

    Q: Wont too much negative camber kill my tires?
    A: Negative camber does not kill tires. Negative camber plus excessive toe (in or out) causes inner tire wear. Toe (in or out) in effect forces the car to "drag" the tire down the road, where 0 toe lets the tire roll down the road. Make sense? Negative camber will cause the tire to roll on the inside of the tire, but negative camber plus excessive toe will drag the inside of the tire down the road causing bad inner tire wear.

    Q: So why are the insides of my rear tires worn after I got a factory alignment?
    A: Because factory specs call for lots of negative camber and LOTS of toe in. Very safe but bad for tire life. (Another cause for bad rear tire wear is worn out trailing arm bushings (RTABs) giving you dynamic toe changes.)

    Part II

    Q. How does camber affect performance?

    A. To maximize cornering force from your tires, the tire must be square on the road during a corner to achieve max grip. If your car had zero camber (all tires square to the road when driving straight), as soon as you turn, the body will roll to the outside, and the outer tires will roll only on the outsides of the tires. Thats why if you ever drove a car with stock alignment hard in turns, you'll see the outsides of the tires worn.

    Q. What is a proper alignment procedure?
    A. Before you get your car aligned, you should know what will happen. The shop will put your car on an alignment rack, and put sensors on the 4 wheels. Some racks have a hard time with very low cars, or cars with spoilers (the Beissbarth rack). It would be good to place weights in the driver's seat equal to your weight. But again, not critical.
    The tech should start at the rear of the car, where he can adjust toe and camber. To adjust camber there is an eccentric bolt where the lower control arm bolts to the spindle (or wheel hub, correct term?). Anyway, once this is loose, it can be turned to adjust camber. It has a cam shaped profile, the base circle of the profile gives the most positive setting, the high end of the "cam" gives the most negative setting. Once the settings are reached, the tech will re-tighten the bolts, (if he's good, he'll do it carefully so as not to affect the positions when tightening, which you'll see when the numbers don't just quite match).
    In the front, all that can be "adjusted" is toe. This is just a matter of loosening the tie rod jam nut, and then adjusting the tie rod length, and then tightening down.

    Q. What should I do before I get an alignment?
    A. Know what you want from the car. Know what settings you want, or the shop will give you factory settings. Do you want the best performance with good tire wear? Then you need to address your front camber issue.

    Q. How does toe affect performance?
    A. Toe behaves similar at either end of the car. Toe in will stabilize the car, making it track straight and not want to change direction. Toe out does the opposite, makes it twitchy, and want to change direction quickly. A car is more responsive with toe out, but less stable.
    FRONT Of CAR - Toe-out in the front lets the car turn in nicely, but may "tramline" down the road (finding grooves and irregularities and following them). Toe-in front makes the car hard to turn and want to "push" or understeer (BTW this is what Audi recommends!).
    REAR OF CAR - Toe-out in the rear is pretty dangerous for RWD cars (or rear wheel bias like Quattro), makes the car want to spin, especially under hard braking. Toe-in rear will keep the rear stable, and (here is the key) allow for you to put power down as early and as hard as possible without wheel spin. More is not always better, racers will always adjust these settings till they get it just right. For the street, the suggested settings will let you set-it-and-forget-it.

    Q. What is a good track/autox alignment?
    A. Most track guys already know what to do here, but for general FYI, a good baseline is:

    Front
    Camber: -3.5 deg per side
    Toe: 0 (0.10-0.20 total toe out for autox)

    Rear
    Camber: -2.0 to -2.5 deg per side
    Toe: 0.20 total toe in (IIRC this is 1/8" total toe in)

    You'll notice it is just slightly more aggressive than a good street alignment. Any more than -3.0 deg camber and 0.10 toe (in or out) per side can lead to inner tire wear with lots of highway driving.
    Some race cars (on race tires) will run even more camber. For race cars, suspension and weight (and usually the track) always play a role in alignment.

    Here is my car on street tires with -3.3 deg camber front, 0.10 total toe out, and -2.5 deg camber rear, 0.20 total toe in.
    Notice as the car rolls, the tires on the ground are square to the road.



    Q. Why believe the author?
    A. You don't have to. I'm not part of a professional race team or anything. But I've done a lot of research, a lot of tuning, and a lot of listening to faster racers. I've had my M3 since 2004. Since then I've learned to develop and setup my M3 competitively for autox and track. In 2005 I was mid pack in my autox class. In 2007 I was beating (and getting beat by) national trophy winners. Also in 2007 I started doing time trials with NASA, and held track records at VIR Full and North Course (which will be improved upon!), and got 3rd place at Redline Time Attack - Summit Point (behind two superb BMW drivers). Also became a certified NASA Instructor Feb 2008.
    I also drive my car on the street, and can't afford uneven tire wear. I DD, autox, and do track events all on the same tires, so they may not last more than a year, but they are usually worn evenly. I have worn tires unevenly, and it was because I was running the wrong alignment settings (usually too much toe!)

    In 2010 I've won all but one NASA MA Time Trial events (I lost one to the Continental Challenge RRT E90 328) to claim 2010 NASA MA TTC Championship.
    I competed in the GRM Ultimate Track Car Challenge in 2010 and 2011.
    In 2011, I now hold the VIR lap record (2:11.1) and the NJMP Thunderbolt lap record (1:32.3), and held the Summit Point lap record for 1 lap (1:22.1) in NASA
    s TTC class.
    Last edited by CorneliusRox; 03-27-2012 at 11:17 AM.

  2. #2
    Veteran Member Four Rings Exanimas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CorneliusRox View Post
    or if you bought it for image, status, pimping, flossing, hardparking, etc, please GTFO!
    These are the exact reasons I bought my car and I will NOT GTFO sir.

    In all seriousness though, this is great info. Now that my air suspension is finally right, I'll be getting an alignment Thursday.
    -Nick

    2008 B7 A4 Avant 2.0T 6spd
    ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

  3. #3
    Veteran Member Four Rings tankdeer's Avatar
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    Good info indeed
    Negative Ghostrider, the pattern is full

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    Veteran Member Four Rings shiro1745's Avatar
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    Interesting read
    - Chip

    034 Stage 2 ECU | 034 Stage 2 TCU | Wagner IC | IE Downpipe | ECS CAI Intake | Fuel-it e85 | Mishimoto Catch Can

  5. #5
    Veteran Member Four Rings Solarsuplex's Avatar
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    I need an alignment badly. Pretty sure in have massive toe out up front and I tiny bit if toe in on the back

  6. #6
    Veteran Member Four Rings mr shickadance's Avatar
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    corny you KILLED this thread!! great information....makes me want an old M3 tho!


    starting to save my jewcoins right meow
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  7. #7
    Veteran Member Four Rings Charles.waite's Avatar
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    Cornelius, mind if I repost this over in the B6 section? Awesome info and its explained incredibly well. Thanks for sharing this!
    -CP
    2008 2.0t S-Line Ti 6MT Avant
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  8. #8
    Veteran Member Four Rings GA42.0T's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CorneliusRox View Post

    Q: Can I get a good Performance Alignment for the Street with stock adjustments?
    A: NO! You cannot get a good performance alignment for the street with a bone stock B7 A4, or even with a modified suspension, without front camber adjustment. You need some form of front camber adjustment that doesn't come stock.

    Q: Why do I need front camber adjustment?
    A: Here is the short explanation (long explanation explained later)...your B7 A4 came from the factory with an alignment that gives the rear tires more grip than the front. This means, when you are going around a turn (say an off ramp) and you are at the limits (tires are squealing), your front tires are giving up and the car does not turn. That is much safer than if the rear tires gave up first and you are now spinning around. But when the front tires give up long before the rear tires, you are giving up a lot of cornering ability vs. a car that all 4 tires give up at the same time. And a car that wont turn feels like crap.




    Wow, yes great read. So this fellow is saying our cars will handle and feel like shit if we don't at least get some front camber adjustment. And how is that done? With adjustable control arms such as 034 or stern?
    Jamie | 2008 2.0T FWD 6MT Brilliant Black S-like
    S-line Suspension+B5 Spring Perchs | RAI HFC | ER SMIC | 034 TIP | B8 18X8 Sport Wheels | Spacers: 10/12.5mm | RS4 Sway | "D" DV | De-badge | S4 Blackout Grill | Euro RNS-E | OEM Ecode Xenons | Clear Side Markers | Cupra Lip | S4 Mirror Caps | ECS Slotted/Drilled Front Rotors | Ceramic Pads | Poser S-line Door Badges | Podi | 034 Catch Can. Go: Still Stage Zero

  9. #9
    Veteran Member Four Rings swoardrider's Avatar
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    Some very good info there. *Just remember that a good chunk of the performance aspects gained from negative camber, apply very little to us versus a BMW. *In fact, being a previous owner of 2 modified Bimmers, I can honestly say that the E36 Chassis is probably the worst example of a car to use in this thread! (no pun intended) E36 factory specs are probably around -1 to -1.5 in front, and -2 to -2.5 rear. *To really get Bimmers to turn in on the track they need a minimum of -2.5 in the fronts. *Lots of guys run as much as -3. Rears vary between -2.5 to -4 depending on how much oversteer the driver likes out of the turn.
    So hears the rub. *With the Bimmer, you can control a lot of the characteristics of the car's handling by tinkering with the camber, hence the shit-ton of aftermarket camber plates available to Bimmers.*Audis have so much rubber in the suspension components that the geometry gets shot to hell in a turn. Basically, Quattro holds us on the road, not good suspension design. If you ran a heim jointed suspension like Audi race cars, with a heavy rear bias center diff and LSD, camber would play a bigger roll.
    I've tried, -1.5 all around, -2.5 front, -1.5 rear, and -1 all around. It did not make a difference at all on the track. The front push was the same. The RS4 guys track their cars the most here on AZ, and some are at -1 camber, as well as I, because it doesn't make a big difference, exsesive camber just wears tires faster on the street.
    '06 2.0T S-line Tip

    Stasis/Ohlins Motorsports, Stasis 14.5" BBk, Stasis rear BBK, H-sport rear sway, JHM 2+ tune, JHM 4:1 center diff, 18" Wed'sSports w/ 255/30 Toyo R888 (track), 19" Tenzo-R's w/ 255/35 (street), Stern upper arms, upgraded stereo, Huper tint, RS4 grill, JHM HFC, JHM downpipes,OEM S4 exhaust, track goodies

  10. #10
    Veteran Member Four Rings Charles.waite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swoardrider View Post
    Some very good info there. *Just remember that a good chunk of the performance aspects gained from negative camber, apply very little to us versus a BMW. *In fact, being a previous owner of 2 modified Bimmers, I can honestly say that the E36 Chassis is probably the worst example of a car to use in this thread! (no pun intended) E36 factory specs are probably around -1 to -1.5 in front, and -2 to -2.5 rear. *To really get Bimmers to turn in on the track they need a minimum of -2.5 in the fronts. *Lots of guys run as much as -3. Rears vary between -2.5 to -4 depending on how much oversteer the driver likes out of the turn.
    So hears the rub. *With the Bimmer, you can control a lot of the characteristics of the car's handling by tinkering with the camber, hence the shit-ton of aftermarket camber plates available to Bimmers.*Audis have so much rubber in the suspension components that the geometry gets shot to hell in a turn. Basically, Quattro holds us on the road, not good suspension design. If you ran a heim jointed suspension like Audi race cars, with a heavy rear bias center diff and LSD, camber would play a bigger roll.
    I've tried, -1.5 all around, -2.5 front, -1.5 rear, and -1 all around. It did not make a difference at all on the track. The front push was the same. The RS4 guys track their cars the most here on AZ, and some are at -1 camber, as well as I, because it doesn't make a big difference, exsesive camber just wears tires faster on the street.
    I now haz a sad....

    Stupid Audi and their rubber suspensions...
    -CP
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  11. #11
    Veteran Member Four Rings swoardrider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles.waite View Post
    I now haz a sad....

    Stupid Audi and their rubber suspensions...
    Sorry to burst your bubble. Audi people buy adjustable control arms to dial out negative camber, not dial in more negative camber. It's so counter-intuitive to modding any other type of car!

    If you really want to see a huge performance difference on the handling, your money is much better spent on the 4:1 bias center diff than putting tons of negative camber in the car.
    '06 2.0T S-line Tip

    Stasis/Ohlins Motorsports, Stasis 14.5" BBk, Stasis rear BBK, H-sport rear sway, JHM 2+ tune, JHM 4:1 center diff, 18" Wed'sSports w/ 255/30 Toyo R888 (track), 19" Tenzo-R's w/ 255/35 (street), Stern upper arms, upgraded stereo, Huper tint, RS4 grill, JHM HFC, JHM downpipes,OEM S4 exhaust, track goodies

  12. #12
    Veteran Member Four Rings CorneliusRox's Avatar
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    I just saw a lot of people speculating and I wanted to throw in some good info.

    swoardrider, thanks for the extra advice! It makes a lot of sense.

    And all of you guys hating the rubber on your suspension, you are wrong. For the road, it provides more quiet, comfort, damping, and it lasts a lot lot longer than heims. If you want more you can always make some custom arms with heims. I assure you it is very easy. I have done it before (not on my audi, but different toys).

    I still think all the info here is very useful and helps people to get a good understanding of what is what and why. Feel free to repost all you want! I'm not here to get credit, just to try and share info.

    Hope this helps people understand!

  13. #13
    Account Terminated Two Rings
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    Does anyone actually ask for different specs besides what factory calls for? I know I haven't yet.

  14. #14
    Veteran Member Four Rings Charles.waite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackGecko View Post
    Does anyone actually ask for different specs besides what factory calls for? I know I haven't yet.
    I would, if only to demonstrate to the techs you know your shit and they know to do it right. Even if its not true, haha.
    -CP
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles.waite View Post
    I would, if only to demonstrate to the techs you know your shit and they know to do it right. Even if its not true, haha.
    *Directs my attention to your ego* Let me know how that turns out.

  16. #16
    Veteran Member Four Rings Charles.waite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackGecko View Post
    *Directs my attention to your ego* Let me know how that turns out.
    Fair enough. I like to let people know that I care about my car and that I WILL check their work (not like an asshole, I'm a nice guy). I just find that people treat you better when you demonstrate knowledge and an interest in what you're asking them to do. I'm not advocating to just throw numbers at them and tell them to begone, I'm just saying you should demonstrate that you care enough about your car to know alignment specs for it, so more often than not, the tech will take an extra second to do it right just in case you DO check and find out he fudged the numbers.

    I never assume I know more than people who work on our cars every day, but its good to let them know you've read up on things and you are aware of what you're asking them to do.
    -CP
    2008 2.0t S-Line Ti 6MT Avant
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    Veteran Member Four Rings Leo14's Avatar
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    Thanks for this, hopefully I'll remember to check back here for the specs before I go get an alignment
    RIP QG TI B7 A4

  18. #18
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    There is a lot of good information here, but remember our cars are a lot different than BMWs. The BMWs discussed here have front struts, our front suspension is much more sophisticated. Struts do not change camber when cornering. Our multi link suspension does. Toe is also different because our front wheel are driven and require toe out.

  19. #19
    Veteran Member Four Rings CorneliusRox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silveravant View Post
    There is a lot of good information here, but remember our cars are a lot different than BMWs. The BMWs discussed here have front struts, our front suspension is much more sophisticated. Struts do not change camber when cornering. Our multi link suspension does. Toe is also different because our front wheel are driven and require toe out.
    You're a bit wrong. They change camber just not as much. and our multilink is set up very similar to theirs. It is no different than an a-arm setup really. Also, the toe out part I disagree with. I have had a lot of experience with toe (everything from FWD to RWD cars, to my 4WD truck, and now our AWD quattro system). I personally do not like toe out. It is true that it would be better for something like autoX where you are constantly darting different directions, but for normal driving I prefer slightly toe in. Keeps the wheel wanting to stay straight. Toe out and the wheels are basically fighting eachother (which is manageable with a tight steering car like ours) and will eventually loosen the steering (wear on it).

    I want the sport center diff!

  20. #20
    Veteran Member Four Rings Charles.waite's Avatar
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    My G37 used to tramline badly on the highway. That coupled with the excessive front tire wear makes me think it had too much toe-out from the factory. I attributed the tire wear to it being a nose heavy pig (much like our Audis only RWD) and the staggered tires but it definitely could've been excessive toe-out now that I think of it. The thing was it was like that straight off the lot though it never felt too darty, the turn-in was perfect and the corner balance was a touch on the side of understeer (though power on in the corner with ESP was generally a bad idea!). Oh well, that awesomely fun, but rattly tin can is long gone. Long live my B6 (the B7 is the GF's ride)!

    Also, anything that will direct MORE power to the rear wheels gets a in my book! I covet a 4:1 center diff....
    -CP
    2008 2.0t S-Line Ti 6MT Avant
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  21. #21
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by CorneliusRox View Post
    You're a bit wrong. They change camber just not as much. and our multilink is set up very similar to theirs. It is no different than an a-arm setup really. Also, the toe out part I disagree with. I have had a lot of experience with toe (everything from FWD to RWD cars, to my 4WD truck, and now our AWD quattro system). I personally do not like toe out. It is true that it would be better for something like autoX where you are constantly darting different directions, but for normal driving I prefer slightly toe in. Keeps the wheel wanting to stay straight. Toe out and the wheels are basically fighting eachother (which is manageable with a tight steering car like ours) and will eventually loosen the steering (wear on it).

    I want the sport center diff!

    Camber change is more with a multi link (or a-arm) suspension. That is why the upper arms are shorter than the lowers. With struts the upper position is fixed. Less static camber is needed with multi-link. . When I say toe-out I mean very slight to none. Depends on how tight the suspension is.

  22. #22
    Veteran Member Four Rings swoardrider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silveravant View Post
    When I say toe-out I mean very slight to none. Depends on how tight the suspension is.
    Correct. We could almost run 1/32" toe out because when an Audi gets on the gas, all the suspension rubber flexes, and the tires tend to pull inward, creating toe in, just like FWD. This also helps turn-in on the track, but when you are, say, coasting down a freeway hill, the car may tend to want to wander.
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  23. #23
    Veteran Member Four Rings tankdeer's Avatar
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    The old Avant would tramline a little bit. I can't find the alignment specs but IIRC I had them zero out the toe. In general it drove great and the tires lasted longer than the car.
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    Senior Member Three Rings A4_Ti's Avatar
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    This. Thread. Has a lot of good info.

    I'm gonna be gettin an alignment soon (B5 caps, so essentially stock s-line setup). What are some of you guys running for specs?

    Also my car tramlines alot more than I would like on my summer tires (POS tires the previous owner was so kind to put on), but not on my winters? whats up with that? softer tire compound maybe? think a touch of toe in would help?
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  25. #25
    Veteran Member Four Rings Charles.waite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A4_Ti View Post
    Also my car tramlines alot more than I would like on my summer tires (POS tires the previous owner was so kind to put on), but not on my winters? whats up with that? softer tire compound maybe? think a touch of toe in would help?
    My b6 used to tramline some because the PO somehow got some really bad inner edge wear on one tire. The car got an alignment at the dealer 2 days after i got it due to some stupid broad hitting my parked car so that wasn't the issue. I took the tire with inner edge wear and moved it to the rear and the tramlining subsided. My theory is the lip of where the inner edge wear hit the road would "catch" on the varying road surfaces and kick the steering out, causing the tramlining.

    I'm getting new tires in the next few months though. Ventus V12 Evos or Conti DWS. (Still of the fence on whether I can pull off summers year round in Seattle...
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    Senior Member Three Rings A4_Ti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles.waite View Post
    My theory is the lip of where the inner edge wear hit the road would "catch" on the varying road surfaces and kick the steering out, causing the tramlining.

    I'm getting new tires in the next few months though. Ventus V12 Evos or Conti DWS. (Still of the fence on whether I can pull off summers year round in Seattle...
    Interesting... my tire wear looked fairly even, I was hoping an alignment would help but it's not lookin so good now. Summers year round in Winnipeg is out of the question, got a set of Hakka's last year and was very happy with them in the winter. Summer tires I got with the car are Akina Sumo's I think? terrible tires, road noise is rediculous, traction is garbage, compound is hard so they'll last forever (yaaaaaaaaaaaaay).

    I want a set of V12's but feel like I need to at least wear these ones out a bit to justify the purchase
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  27. #27
    Established Member Two Rings Shanks_26's Avatar
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    Thanks for some knowledge

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    Quote Originally Posted by swoardrider View Post
    I've tried, -1.5 all around, -2.5 front, -1.5 rear, and -1 all around. It did not make a difference at all on the track.
    Besides the track, did you notice any good set-ups for normal/highway driving? I'm getting an alignment this week (I am lowered with Sterns upper control arms) and just want to be more clear understanding of what we should adjust to for obtaining a twitch-less, responsive drive but not sacrificing too much tire life. I was previously getting bad inner tire wear on my front two tires even with the Sterns control arms.

  29. #29
    Veteran Member Four Rings flyingfish2626's Avatar
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    Lots of great info here. I have had lots of luck on my B5 S4 running zero toe. Tires wear great and handling was fantastic. Could someone explain the adjustable rear camber our cars have? CorneliusRox stated that the rear camber should be -1.5 to -2.0. Is there one side of the range that is better for handling or tire wear? Installing B5 caps this week and a alignment is in my near future, especially since I just installed my new VMR 718's and dont want to wear out my new Continentals. Thanks for the help.
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  30. #30
    Veteran Member Four Rings swoardrider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackGecko View Post
    Besides the track, did you notice any good set-ups for normal/highway driving? I'm getting an alignment this week (I am lowered with Sterns upper control arms) and just want to be more clear understanding of what we should adjust to for obtaining a twitch-less, responsive drive but not sacrificing too much tire life. I was previously getting bad inner tire wear on my front two tires even with the Sterns control arms.
    I took the advise from many AZ veterans like Blake (koolade9): -1 degree of camber and zero toe on all 4 of the wheels has been a pretty proven setting for street tire longevity that also has minimal adverse effects of handling. This has also been advised by my alignment/suspension mechanic (a former F1 Renault/Lotus team member and Lotus engineer). I have not ran this setting long enough yet to see real world tire wear, but after 5K miles, everything looks really good. The other thing I'm doing is absolutely NOT rotating tires. Many others may disagree, but for me, rotating tires on an AWD car has only created problems. I even have had problems rotating tires on RWD BMWs in the past. A tire's radial belt gets use to to flexing at certain angles and on certain planes. Rotating them causes new flex angles and then the belt breaks apart internally. At least that is what keeps happening to me constantly.

    I will report back on tire wear with the zero toe/-1 degree alignment settings after another 10k miles.
    Last edited by swoardrider; 03-29-2012 at 01:36 AM.
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    ^^^Thank you!

  32. #32
    Veteran Member Four Rings Jay-Bee's Avatar
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    Aww man Corey this is awesome, if only I knew this 3 months ago when I got an alignment!

    I always just thought it was my squirmy winter tires (Nokian Hakk R), as they were put on the same day... but man, i feel like my car is all over the highway sometimes and getting odd steering deflection over road features.

    I've put on about 6K kms with the winters and don't notice any wear uneven wear.

    I'll dig up my dialed in specs and post them up to see, dont have it with me, they are very close to the "Recommended OEM setting" listed beside them.

    This thread has been bookmarked!
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  33. #33
    Registered Member Four Rings BoSNiaN's Avatar
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    Where was this thread last week when I got an alignment done?!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by CorneliusRox View Post

    Q: Ok, so what is a good performance alignment for the street with good tire wear?
    A: Here are the specs:

    Front
    Camber: -2.5 deg (per side)
    Toe: 0 (or 0.10 to 0.20 deg total toe in for mostly highway driving)

    Rear
    Camber: -1.5 to -2 deg (per side)
    Toe: 0.20 total toe in (IIRC this is 1/8" total toe in)
    ^Is that a cut+paste from the bimmer forum or is that actually correct for our cars? According to the print out, the shop went with:

    FL: toe = 0.10, chamber =-0.9
    RL: toe = 0.15, chamber = -1.5
    FR: toe = 0.15, chamber = -0.9
    RR: toe = 0.15, chamber = -1.7

    ^Are those OEM? Any other comments on those readings?
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  34. #34
    Veteran Member Four Rings CorneliusRox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoSNiaN View Post
    Where was this thread last week when I got an alignment done?!?!



    ^Is that a cut+paste from the bimmer forum or is that actually correct for our cars? According to the print out, the shop went with:

    FL: toe = 0.10, chamber =-0.9
    RL: toe = 0.15, chamber = -1.5
    FR: toe = 0.15, chamber = -0.9
    RR: toe = 0.15, chamber = -1.7

    ^Are those OEM? Any other comments on those readings?
    cut and paste from the bimmer forum, but in general I would run toe=.1 on all four, and anywhere from -1 to -2 for camber on all four. I dont have adjustable rears so I am locked at -1.7 in the front.

    I am not sure why they put your toe different? it should be the same so you dont have your car wanting to go in one direction more than the other.

  35. #35
    Registered Member Four Rings BoSNiaN's Avatar
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    Well, my car pulled to the left when the steering wheel was straight before I brought it in and now the car goes perfectly straight..
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    Veteran Member Four Rings CorneliusRox's Avatar
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    hmm, seems strange.

  37. #37
    Veteran Member Four Rings tankdeer's Avatar
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    Wonder if they're trying to correct for something like a bent control arm or something like that?
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  38. #38
    Registered Member Four Rings BoSNiaN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tankdeer View Post
    Wonder if they're trying to correct for something like a bent control arm or something like that?
    Possibly...the alignment has been off ever so slighty since I bought the car last year, but the steering wheel was noticeably off when I had a recent rear fender bender (reversed into an object).

    I haven't actually looked in that area yet but nothing looks bent from looking at suspension stuff with the wheels off...They asked me for the chassis model so I am assuming their machine pulled those as the default values, no?
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  39. #39
    Veteran Member Four Rings Jay-Bee's Avatar
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    I'm gonna go try and get my wheels balanced since i need it bad, and see if they'll throw it back on the rack if I complain enough!

    My car has been all kinds of weird since Dec when i got tires and alignment done, i chalked it up as cold roads and squirmy tire compounds, and going from a 235 to a 215 all around... but really my car should be driving better than it does IMO. Maybe I have an issue than can't be dialed out... i might have to start looking at tie-rods or CAs.

    I have 2 more snowboarding trips into the rockies through april so i'm not taking the Nokians off just yet, and it's calling for 12*C tomorrow

    Here's my specs.

    It's weird the codes for "Standard" and "Rough Road China" (lawl) are noted at the top... but no "Sport" which is what I have, should there be any adjusted difference to compensate for the slight drop and stiffness some have over Standard?

    Last edited by Jay-Bee; 10-18-2019 at 06:48 PM.
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  40. #40
    Veteran Member Four Rings Charles.waite's Avatar
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    Yea. The 1BE (sport) values should be listed, not 1BA (non-Sport).

    Some info.
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