Flyingfish Tial 605 build thread EPL tuning

[flyingfish2626]

Finally the last order has been placed and all of the goodies are piled up. I want to thank gearhead Mike for all of his help acquiring the Tial 605's from him. I have asked him a million questions and he is always very pleasant to deal with. I have a appointment with Brian from Autosport Werks in Denver on Monday to set my waist-gates and pick up my fueling kit and base break-in tune on my spare ECU. Here is the list of goodies, please let me know if I am missing anything.
Tial 605's with inlets
EPL fueling kit with EV14 72lbs
85mm MAF
stock airbox
AWE new design intercoolers
AWE 3" downpipes, no cats
AWE Twin 2 exhaust
APR R1 diverter vales
ARD bipipes, ceramic coated
Vast meth #7 nozzles
Eibach Pro Street coilovers
044 fuel pump
034 street density trans/motor
AWE DTS
Apikol snub
Apikol rear diff mount
Southbend stage 3 endurance Kevlar clutch with Sachs PP
Southbend steel flywheel
Lots of body/chassis goodies.
Install should be complete in the next few weeks, I will show some pics soon, thanks alot guys!

[flyingfish2626]

Zero suggestions........wow.

[rmv6]

looks like you got way more than i could dream of having in the next few years. open up your airbox maybe or get an rs4 box. how about timing belt/water pump while it's all out. and miscellaneous fluids (coolant, oil, meth). sorry if it seems basic i don't know what else you might need

[B5stgIII]

I know our airboxes are very efficient, even up to high hp numbers, but I say upgrade to Vasts big-ass intake if you're going to end up upgrading internals and really pushing the motor eventually. - longest run-on sentence ever.

[gearhead1186]

list looks good. are you doing the install yourself?

goodluck with the build. ill be following it closely!! feel free to PM me with any questions.

also PM some of the mods so they can move this over to the build section!!

[flyingfish2626]

I was supposed to be seeing Mike at Autosport Werks on Monday to grab my fueling kit and break-in ECU, but I guess EPL got rocked yesterday with that crazy storm that blew through. Lots of damage, no power, and no 605 maps getting sent out on Monday. Mike/Tony will be calling me on Wednesday for a update. I will keep you posted.

[gearhead1186]

I was supposed to be seeing Mike at Autosport Werks on Monday to grab my fueling kit and break-in ECU, but I guess EPL got rocked yesterday with that crazy storm that blew through. Lots of damage, no power, and no 605 maps getting sent out on Monday. Mike/Tony will be calling me on Wednesday for a update. I will keep you posted.

yea i was actually right by EPL when the storm hit hard. it was nasty. i think i saw a cow tossed up in all the wind.

[flyingfish2626]

yea i was actually right by EPL when the storm hit hard. it was nasty. i think i saw a cow tossed up in all the wind.

How bad is the EPL building?

[gearhead1186]

How bad is the EPL building?

I was pulled over on I-95 right by their exit. Didnt actually see the building but I might stop by tomorrow.

[flyingfish2626]

I was pulled over on I-95 right by their exit. Didnt actually see the building but I might stop by tomorrow.

Please keep me updated if you can. And if you see Tony, please tell him that you sold those Tials to me. Would love for Tony to actually know who I am. Thanks again Mike.

[gearhead1186]

Will do. I think right after you got em I mentioned it to them but if I drop by tomorrow I will def remind them.

[bigern45]

yah.. crazy.. i was supposed to get a race gas file today.. then the crazy answering machine message.. lol.. i hope all is well up there and they get stuff organized/get things repaired.

good luck with your build btw.. it looks like a great plan

oh, and also, tony will tune your car with the VAST meth kit, but if there is anyway that you could get an aquamist kit, he/EPL is much more comfortable tuning more aggressively if you have the failsafe of the aquamist kit.. for my next build, that is one of my goals, to get that kit...

[gearhead1186]

yea im with rich on this one.. aquamist FTW!! when i was at EPL a couple days ago they had a car come in to do 605s. came in with k03s and your typical devils own/vast meth kit and the according to the IATs it didnt even look like the meth was doing much. if its in the budget i would go for it.

[BlkdoutA4]

yea im with rich on this one.. aquamist FTW!! when i was at EPL a couple days ago they had a car come in to do 605s. came in with k03s and your typical devils own/vast meth kit and the according to the IATs it didnt even look like the meth was doing much. if its in the budget i would go for it.

ha, must not have been working properly or something.. i see huge gains both in power and in lower IATs with my VAST meth kit.

[gearhead1186]

ha, must not have been working properly or something.. i see huge gains both in power and in lower IATs with my VAST meth kit.

Very possible. However, having the aquamist failsafe lets u comfortably tune to the edge.

[bigern45]

Very possible. However, having the aquamist failsafe lets u comfortably tune to the edge.

that was my point exactly, and from a tuner's stand point, that is good as gold. you know how many kids get a tune with an MBC, then turn up the boost, then when shit fails and holes in engines happen , say "it was tuned by so and so and now its broke...".. ??

so as much as i would like for tony to be more aggressive with my timing, i know IF one of my devils own nozzles clog, then its not up to me just to watch my a/f gauge and make a judgement in mid pull to let up so as not to blow something..

my VAST kit does amazing as well, you can tweak it plenty to make up for flow characteristics, and you can get nozzles to suit your needs.. but if the pump fails or a nozzle clogs, the sound of your engine pinging will probably be all you hear as to when something fails..

[J-b5]

depends on the tune.

i know with vast if you exceed the safeties, IE ping, overboost, etc. the motor is very quick to clamp down to save itself.

[bigern45]

depends on the tune.

i know with vast if you exceed the safeties, IE ping, overboost, etc. the motor is very quick to clamp down to save itself.

it only takes a few seconds or one second of a pre-det to break something...

[Dowskeet]

I have a appointment with Brian from Autosport Werks in Denver on Monday to set my waist-gates and pick up my fueling kit and base break-in tune on my spare ECU.

Man those waist-gates should be crucial..

TiAL 605's

[flyingfish2626]

Man those waist-gates should be crucial..

TiAL 605's

Mike will be setting them to 21-22 psi up here at 5000 feet. While the motor is out, I will be doing valve cover gaskets, cam tensioner seals, rear main seal. Timing belt/water pump is new (less than 10K miles). Fuel filter and spark plugs are new. N75 and EGT's are also new. This car has been very well maintained its whole life. Just received some #7 meth nozzles from Devils Own. I know Tony doesnt like the Vast meth, but its already installed so I am going to run it for now. We will see how 5K feet does with these 605's. Brian just dynoed a 605 car up here and made 450+ whp. I will let him talk about that. Just recieved my JHM shift linkage today as well.

[flyingfish2626]

EPL is up and running again. I will try to set up another appointment with Autosport Werks.

[Tech/Sales@VAST]

I know Tony doesnt like the Vast meth, but its already installed so I am going to run it for now.

I'm not entirely shocked, we haven't had any issues with 100s sold and installed to date. If you understand the factory ecu there's plenty of safety that can be placed the same or in fact better then any fail safe out.

[flyingfish2626]

I'm not entirely shocked, we haven't had any issues with 100s sold and installed to date. If you understand the factory ecu there's plenty of safety that can be placed the same or in fact better then any fail safe out.

Thats why I bought the kit from you guys....

[gearhead1186]

I'm not entirely shocked, we haven't had any issues with 100s sold and installed to date. If you understand the factory ecu there's plenty of safety that can be placed the same or in fact better then any fail safe out.

care to elaborate?

[Jason:addict]

I'm not entirely shocked, we haven't had any issues with 100s sold and installed to date. If you understand the factory ecu there's plenty of safety that can be placed the same or in fact better then any fail safe out.

You can't modify the factory ecu to be more capable of dealing with flow variations than an actual FLOW SENSOR. The only thing the ecu can do is react to a problem, it can't determine that there's going to be a problem before the problem happens. Setting the ecu up to pull massive timing is IN NO WAY better than a true flow based fail-safe. We don't aggressively tune systems that have no idea if there's low or high flow, it's just not as safe. I can assure you that there is more ecu correction capabilities in an EPL file utilizing a cheaper variable voltage 'progressive' non-flow based system than there is in an Aquamist file, and we still don't feel comfortable running these systems hard. The Aquamist also has a real time flow display which makes it very obvious if the system is in fact working properly over time.

You're making another completely false claim with no data to back it up, which is becoming very common. I also hope you're not implying that EPL has a lesser understanding of Motronic, because that is utterly laughable.

[Tech/Sales@VAST]

You can't modify the factory ecu to be more capable of dealing with flow variations than an actual FLOW SENSOR. The only thing the ecu can do is react to a problem, it can't determine that there's going to be a problem before the problem happens. Setting the ecu up to pull massive timing is IN NO WAY better than a true flow based fail-safe. We don't aggressively tune systems that have no idea if there's low or high flow, it's just not as safe. I can assure you that there is more ecu correction capabilities in an EPL file utilizing a cheaper variable voltage 'progressive' non-flow based system than there is in an Aquamist file, and we still don't feel comfortable running these systems hard. The Aquamist also has a real time flow display which makes it very obvious if the system is in fact working properly over time.

You're making another completely false claim with no data to back it up, which is becoming very common. I also hope you're not implying that EPL has a lesser understanding of Motronic, because that is utterly laughable.

Like I stated I'm not entirely shocked nor am I about your reply. You do things the way EPL tells you and that's completely fine as your entitled to your opinion.

Your right the factory ecu can't tell if the jets are clog it can tell IAT rising which can be set to put the car in limp mode rather easily, just 1 example of dozens. Personally I would much rather depend on simple mechanical devices, checking the proper filters and check valve then a bunch of electrical sensors.

Please lets not talk about data, when I do post data it has/will be 110% accurate, not misleading or skewed, with a proper hardware list displayed and common for anyone to achieve.

With all that being said I believe there's far more Vast meth kit's installed on S4s then any other brand without making the customer paranoid with a bunch of what if this or that stuff the average guy couldn't understand or speaking negative about another kit as we have nothing bad to say about Aquamist what so ever.

I never was aware of any failure to the engine do to the Vast kit and the way it's designed. Both kit's are great and you can't go wrong with either.

[Raacerx]

Excited to see the results of your setup dude.

Are #7 nozzles a good choice for the 605? Is that what Tony recommended? Just wondering. I hear all kinds of recommendations from tuners of big nozzles, small nozzles, and big+small nozzles.

[bigern45]

agreed guys, OP is going with VAST, which is what i run on my car, and with great results, it works like a charm. the LED indicators and diagnostic lights on mine work great for me. that being said, i know that Tony will not tune to full potential with out the aquamist safety net..

so, lets drop the meth kit discussion and get on with talking and enjoying your build brother.

another fast S4... lets keep em coming guys...

[J-b5]

it only takes a few seconds or one second of a pre-det to break something...

Yeah tell that one to unitronic, selling people audibly detonating files for some time now.. I got lucky with mine but i wonder who hasnt.

[americanthunder]

I very much respect VAST, but I had actually bought a VAST Meth kit and decided to sell it and go with the aquamist HFS-3. To me it was well for the extra few hundred bucks for the added safety. Even more so because im running stock block with 605's + meth. Just my 2 cents, the aquamist is the way to go and its a top notch quality and very complete system. (not saying the VAST kit isn't). Also to op you might wanna think about running at least a SB stage 4, or 5 or a spec 3+ clutch. Im not sure I would trust a SB stage 3 with that kind of power. Again my 2 cents. Im running the spec 3+ with OEM flywheel I have a hand full of hard launches and lots of beating on it and it hasn't missed a single beat. It's also very drivable and retains the full face disk.

[americanthunder]

Good luck with your build btw!

[flyingfish2626]

I very much respect VAST, but I had actually bought a VAST Meth kit and decided to sell it and go with the aquamist HFS-3. To me it was well for the extra few hundred bucks for the added safety. Even more so because im running stock block with 605's + meth. Just my 2 cents, the aquamist is the way to go and its a top notch quality and very complete system. (not saying the VAST kit isn't). Also to op you might wanna think about running at least a SB stage 4, or 5 or a spec 3+ clutch. Im not sure I would trust a SB stage 3 with that kind of power. Again my 2 cents. Im running the spec 3+ with OEM flywheel I have a hand full of hard launches and lots of beating on it and it hasn't missed a single beat. It's also very drivable and retains the full face disk.

I bought the brand new Southbend stage 3 endurance clutch that uses the Sachs racing pressure plate, and is Kevlar. It is rated to hold 500 foot pounds of torque. Should be enough with their LWSF.

[flyingfish2626]

Devils own #7 nozzles flow 441 ml/min so thats 882 combined. I also live at 5000 feet so everything runs really rich. I will see what EPL says, but I am hoping the #7's are enough. Just booked my next appointment on Monday the 12th for the fueling kit since EPL is back in business. Then the car goes under-the -knife on the 14th. Hope everything goes ok. Really nervous right now.

[gearhead1186]

Devils own #7 nozzles flow 441 ml/min so thats 882 combined. I also live at 5000 feet so everything runs really rich. I will see what EPL says, but I am hoping the #7's are enough. Just booked my next appointment on Monday the 12th for the fueling kit since EPL is back in business. Then the car goes under-the -knife on the 14th. Hope everything goes ok. Really nervous right now.

everything will work out. GL!!

[flyingfish2626]

Wow there is alot of 605 talk right now. I really have just been trying to soak it all in. My main decision to buy the 605's over RS6's was the ability to run my AWE 3" downpipes. I also liked the idea of getting all new oil and coolant lines, and I already needed inlets, and the Tial ones are very nice. I also didnt want to run KO4's maxed out to achieve 400whp up here at 5K feet. I hope I can run a somewhat conservative tune (24 psi or so) with meth and achieve 450, with room for rods in the future. Just my 2 cents.....

[*Blue-Angel*]

I bought the brand new Southbend stage 3 endurance clutch that uses the Sachs racing pressure plate, and is Kevlar. It is rated to hold 500 foot pounds of torque. Should be enough with their LWSF.

It will get hott quick in bumper to bumper traffic, but will be fine with everyday driving.
It is not a disc that should be used at the drag strip tho. Not for more than a couple pulls actually.
Dont know what your going to do with your car but you should be just fine.

ps what part of CO are you in. I may be moving to CO in the next couple months

[americanthunder]

I bought the brand new Southbend stage 3 endurance clutch that uses the Sachs racing pressure plate, and is Kevlar. It is rated to hold 500 foot pounds of torque. Should be enough with their LWSF.

I would just go over kill. You will have over 500ftlbs at the crank easy. The spec 3+ is rated at 689 ftlbs just to give you an idea. I think the SB stage 4 is over 600 and the stage 5 is 650 or so if i remember correctly. Just something to think about man, hate to have to see you pull it twice when an extra 200 bucks could have saved you all the trouble. My 605's pull fucking hard It was worth every penny to go over kill and never look back http://www.specclutch.com/cars/Audi/S4_RS4/2000/Single

[flyingfish2626]

I would just go over kill. You will have over 500ftlbs at the crank easy. The spec 3+ is rated at 689 ftlbs just to give you an idea. I think the SB stage 4 is over 600 and the stage 5 is 650 or so if i remember correctly. Just something to think about man, hate to have to see you pull it twice when an extra 200 bucks could have saved you all the trouble. My 605's pull fucking hard It was worth every penny to go over kill and never look back http://www.specclutch.com/cars/Audi/S4_RS4/2000/Single

Johnathan from Tial has told me that the 605's are not as hard on clutches as people think. The power band is higher in the RPM range, which hopefully wont kill this new clutch. Just something Johnathan said, dont hold me to it. I really hope it holds, I will see.

[flyingfish2626]

It will get hott quick in bumper to bumper traffic, but will be fine with everyday driving.
It is not a disc that should be used at the drag strip tho. Not for more than a couple pulls actually.
Dont know what your going to do with your car but you should be just fine.

ps what part of CO are you in. I may be moving to CO in the next couple months

No drag for me.....Live in Fort Collins.

[*Blue-Angel*]

well im going to colorado springs. how far are you from that. ps if no drag then ur clutch is just fine.