MIL and error code P0016- timing belt related?

[jmaneyapanda]

So, I recently had my timing belt service done by the dealership. Afterwards, the car seems a bit sluggish, but I could tell if it was me imagining it, or real. I was getting 18-19 lbs boost, and normal mileage, but it didnt have the ooomph that it did before (BTW APR stage 1, 034 HFC).

SO yesterday morning I get a MIL, so I hook up the VAGCOM and get this:

1 Fault Found:
000022 - Bank 1: CMP Sensor (G40) / Engine Speed Sensor (G28): Incorrect Correlation
P0016 - 002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent - MIL ON
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 10100010
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 23
Mileage: 124015 km
Time Indication: 0

Upon researching it, it appears to be timing belt related. This is more than likely the definitely caused by the timing belt service, right? Its been 12 days since the service, so would this MIL come on this far after the service if it is related? In the meantime, my boost has dropped to be max 10-11 lbs, my torque is gone, and my mileage has shit the bed.

I had the PCV replaced about 8000 miles ago too, as well as a new HPFP. Let me know your thoughts.

[jmaneyapanda]

http://www.obd-codes.com/p0016

[fly300kts]

Yup, timing related. Depending on the year, there is a TSB too

16400/P0016/000022

* 1 16400/P0016/000022 - Bank 1: Camshaft Position Sensor (G40) / Engine Speed Sensor (G28): Incorrect Correlation
o 1.1 Possible Symptoms
o 1.2 Possible Causes
o 1.3 Possible Solutions
o 1.4 Special Notes

16400/P0016/000022 - Bank 1: Camshaft Position Sensor (G40) / Engine Speed Sensor (G28): Incorrect Correlation
Possible Symptoms

* Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) ON

Possible Causes

* Timing Issue
* Camshaft Adjuster

Possible Solutions

* Check Setting of Timing Belt
* Check Timing of Intake/Exhaust Cams
* Check Cam Adjusters as per Repair Manual

Special Notes

* When found in 2009 Audi A4, A5 or Q5 with 3.2FSI AVE Engines, please see TSB 15-09-04.

Phil

[jmaneyapanda]

06 A4, so no TSB. But being a timing belt service was just done, I cant help but insist they are related. Would this issue cause the sluggish performance and boost loss?

[fly300kts]

06 A4, so no TSB. But being a timing belt service was just done, I cant help but insist they are related. Would this issue cause the sluggish performance and boost loss?

Hell yeah: 1 tooth off and everything will be off the chart

Phil

[jmaneyapanda]

Hell yeah: 1 tooth off and everything will be off the chart

Phil

Thank you kind sir AGAIN!!!!!!

[jmaneyapanda]

So, I took the car back to the dealer, and they checked and said the timing is indeed off. They said by less than a tooth, which I cant quite grasp in my head, but regardless, they go to repair it under warranty from the previous work. I get a call today, and they redid the timing, and said its still off, and are now leaning towards the modifications Ive made as being the culprit. At this point, I have an APR stage 1 ECU, 034 HFC, and a 034 turbo inlet. Everything is is untouched. The timing issue occurred about 10 days after they did the timing belt service, which is about 4 months after the ECU. After the timing belt service, the car felt slightly sluggish, getting more and more so until the MIL came on.

I told them that they are ridiculous if they think that a timing issue immediately after the timing belt service is anyones fault but theirs, and they said they keep looking into it.

Does anyone have any ideas? Could the APR ECU be causing this MIL and issue?

[naiku]

I get a call today, and they redid the timing, and said its still off, and are now leaning towards the modifications Ive made as being the culprit. At this point, I have an APR stage 1 ECU, 034 HFC, and a 034 turbo inlet.

This kind of thing is why I hate taking my car to dealerships, and why they have such a poor reputation. You did not have any problems until you had the timing belt service done, the problem is caused by the timing being off, and only now they try to blame your mods.

[jmaneyapanda]

This kind of thing is why I hate taking my car to dealerships, and why they have such a poor reputation. You did not have any problems until you had the timing belt service done, the problem is caused by the timing being off, and only now they try to blame your mods.

Yeah, I understand that people hate taking their car to the dealership. I have had far worse customer service from some of the local "tuners" nhere, so I wanted to go to the horses mouth. Whats done is done, though.

So, does anyone have any thoughts?

[illegitimus]

have the dealership fix it, 'nough said.

[jmaneyapanda]

What would CAUSE a timing belt to be off a tooth?

[jmaneyapanda]

So the latest from the dealer is that they have tried 3 times to reinstall the timing system, and each time it comes of by a tooth (or thereabouts). SO they are waiting to hear back from their regional service advisor. They say it may be something "from the back end". The dumb woman I spoke to obviously couldnt inform me with much detail as to what may be wrong.

As I am not advancedly mechanically savvy, what could cause the tioming to constantly be off when they are trying to set it proper? And What could they mean by the "back end"? And a previous question, what could initially cause the timing to go off? Remember this is (supposedly) a brand new belt, tensioner, water pump. So wear and tear is not a possibility.

[jmaneyapanda]

Bump

[fly300kts]

So the latest from the dealer is that they have tried 3 times to reinstall the timing system, and each time it comes of by a tooth (or thereabouts). SO they are waiting to hear back from their regional service advisor. They say it may be something "from the back end". The dumb woman I spoke to obviously couldnt inform me with much detail as to what may be wrong.

As I am not advancedly mechanically savvy, what could cause the tioming to constantly be off when they are trying to set it proper? And What could they mean by the "back end"? And a previous question, what could initially cause the timing to go off? Remember this is (supposedly) a brand new belt, tensioner, water pump. So wear and tear is not a possibility.

YourDealer is full of it!!
When you do a timing belt, you don't touch the back end, period
If the car was workning prior the belt replacement and was fucked after, it's their fault. Remember, you don't have a lot of room for mistakes when it comes to timing: 1 tooth from TCM and your car will run like shit. I don't know what they did during the troubleshooting or attempting to adjust the belt position but 2 teeth from TCM and the shit hit the fan: Pistons valves will now contact !!
Good luck Man. you are in for a big war with your dealer

Phil

[kleinewunder]

The dealer's explanation makes no sense to me. There are only 2 sprockets--one for the crank and one for the cams. Either they are in synch or they aren't. The only other thing I can think of would be some issue with the tensioner allowing too much slack in the belt such that the sprockets get slightly out of synch when you run the motor. Maybe you got a bum tensioner or maybe it wasn't adjusted properly. Good luck.

[NAUDIB7]

New to the b7's.....I'm guessing the 2.0t are non interference motors?

[kleinewunder]

They definitely ARE interference engines. As Phil said, 1 tooth out of synch and your engine runs like ass. Two teeth out of synch and your valves hit your pistons.

[jmaneyapanda]

Thanks for the replies. Can it be "under a tooth off"? That sounds wacky, and I'm having difficulty visualizing that.

[fly300kts]

Thanks for the replies. Can it be "under a tooth off"? That sounds wacky, and I'm having difficulty visualizing that.

Nope, you are either right on or one tooth or more out. No half tooth here



phil

[Inked]

wow, it seems every week there is another topic about a stealership!!!

Dealerships = Stealerships

/thread

[jmaneyapanda]

SO the service manager emailed me today, and said they need to look at the timing chain and tensioner on the rear of the motor. Not the belt, but the chain. I have heard of this chain possibly breaking, but how and what could possibly cause the rear chain to go out of timing? I assumed it was rather working or not working. Not being "slightly out". But I dont understand the rear timing belt that well.

[fly300kts]

More bull!!!
The rear chain keeps synchronised both cams. If she breaks, check your exhaust tips, pistons or valves pieces will be pissing out of them
An to explain what I am talking about:



Get your car out of there!!! Quick !!!

Phil

[jmaneyapanda]

Right! SO the chain will work or not work, right? Wont be "slightly off" to make timing off bit, right? The chain cant stretch or wear down (within reason), so I dont know how it would impair timing as slightly as theyre claiming.

If the tensioner for the chain broke (or whatever), could that cause a timing issue? It looks like the tensioner is just a little ramp or guide, but Im not sure.

[rallyGLI]

jmaneyapanda,

It looks like we've got the same engine and mine, sadly, is going through the same issues you've experienced.

2008 VW GLI, 2.0 TFSI, 6 speed, pure awesome, no modes, 107000km, out of warranty! (eek!!)

- CEL is on
- at idle the engine makes a soft 'whump, whump, whump' noise as it turns and you can feel it slightly through the chassis.
- between 1000 and 3000/3500 rpm the engine runs perfectly smooth however it felt like it was losing power while limping to the dealership
- at roughly 3500 to 4000 there was the beginnings of valve clatter, very light impact sounds but very obvious that anything in the range and above would be VERY unhealthy for my engine.

So I limped to my dealership using between 1500-2500rpm and dropped it off... it's at Clarkdale Motors in Vancouver.

Code P0016

Here is what has transpired so far for others that run into this issue...

1. Checked out the PCV extended warranty. Told it wasn't this
2. The codes are obviously related to timing in the cam/crank shaft sensors and they thought maybe the timing belt had skipped a tooth. After inspecting this I was told this wasn't the problem either.
3. Sensors ordered (both) for replacement however the techs started to suspect that it might be the tensioner on the other side of the engine for the cam chain. This is oil pressure driven and they think there might be a problem in there. Parts have been ordered from Toronto and I'm waiting to hear of their theory holds true (tomorrow morning they should be back at it with the parts).

What was your experience in the end???!

Thanks in advance!

Andrew

[DRAKLORE]

Timing is off by LESS than one tooth

This made me chuckle

[bman005]

This made me chuckle

Yeah right? I laugh every time I hear someone say "its like half a tooth off"

To OP, the cam postion sensor (G40) checks the position of the intake cam, so if the belt timing is ok and the sensor is ok then the issue will most likely trace back to the chain side. After the failed part (stretched chain, chain tensioner, etc) the cams will have to be set correctly and you should be good. Might as well replace your cam follower while you're at it

[PhillyMor]

Would it be possible to be "slightly" off if the chain itself was out of spec? Like slightly too long or short? Obviously it can't be half a tooth off in the literal sense but if the camshaft seems to be half a tooth off (synchronized) from the crankshaft, couldn't it be because the chain isn't the exact right length?

I've got a B8 A4 with 130k and my MIL is on and the code is P0016. Replaced both Cam and Crank sensors to no avail. Pretty sure the timing chain is stretched which made me think that the OP issue with this repair might be the chain/belt they're using is out of spec. Maybe?