Pairing a 4.2L 40V to a O1E 6MT - Please school me

[swamper8]

As the title states, I would appreciate some schooling on what's needed to pair the 4.2L V8 (chain drive) to a 01E transmission. (AWD)
If it matters, I will be replacing a damaged 2.7T engine. I'm just interested in information on physically mating the two, not all the engine connections/electronics/programming etc.

Can I use the flywheel/clutch from the 2.7T motor? If so do I need a different starter?

Should I be using a flywheel and clutch out of a B6/B7 S4? Starter?

Do I need a different slave cylinder?

Do I need an adapter plate?

I just need information on the clutch operation and physical mating only

Thank you!

I should add that I chose this forum because I believe B6/B7 S4's have the chain drive 4.2L and some of them also have the 01E? If this is not correct I can post up in a different forum.

[jettaowner718]

I know the flywheel from a 2.7 will not fit 4.2


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[q_dubz]

I wouldn't pick an 01E over an 0A3....

[Jake@JHM]

I wouldn't pick an 01E over an 0A3....

x2

[swamper8]

The 01E is already 100% fitted to the car. It's a C5 chassis. In order to run the 0A3 I would need to monkey with the transmission mounts, driveshaft length not to mention the speed sensor is not compatible. I Believe JHM is working on a conversion device to mate the older 01E speedo pickup to B6/B7 0A3 ABS based speedo calculation but I don't need to go through that huge headache. I would be happy with the 01E. I'm not building a dragster. :-)

[jettaowner718]

Just use 4.2 from a6 plug and play


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[swamper8]

Just use 4.2 from a6 plug and play


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Well if I understand correctly, a C5A6 uses a timing belt 4.2L. I'm working on a C5 Allroad and that uses the timing chain setup identical to the B6/B7 S4. Besides, I already have my donor 4.2L Allroad. For motor mounts, hoses, radiator, AC etc etc. All I really need to know is what should I use for the flywheel/clutch/spacer (if needed) etc. It seems that the flywheel/clutch from a B6/B7 S4 would be perfect. I just don't know if the 01E was ever used in the B6/B7 S4's or if it was only the 0A3's. Nor do I know if 01E's and 0A3's use the same clutch/flywheel/slave setup.

[Hooblah]

If you need a 0A3 I can have one shipped to you from the UK.

[jettaowner718]

Don't think they used 01e with a c5 4.2 when I say plug and play I literally mean all hoses wiring


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[jettaowner718]

Your looking at custom driveshaft length if you wanna use b6 trans the length are different


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[swamper8]

I never stated I want to use a B6 trans.

Anyone else with a intimate knowledge of the B6/B7 platform? I'd appreciate some information. 01E ever used on these cars? Yes I know of the 0A3. No I don't want it. It doesn't play well with the C5 chassis.

EDIT
Further googling on the topic seems to show that the B6 S4 only came with the 0A3, never the 01E. So I am unsure if the 0A3 and 01E would use the same flywheel and clutch. A6 cars with the 4.2L came with the 01E but the 4.2L had the timing belt, not chain. I know that changes the setup of the back of the engine. So again, not sure a clutch/flywheel off a A6 4.2L timing-belt car would work on a 4.2L timing-chain car.

Wondering if Audi ever actually paired the 4.2L Timing-Chain V8 and 01E? Not to say it wouldn't work, just need to know the magical combo of flywheel/clutch/spacer/starter etc.....

[jettaowner718]

I have both engines currently the flywheels are NOT INTERCHANGEABLE.....the clutch disk size and spline are the same if that helps


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[Nollywood]

Interesting.

[allroadmark]

01e never used in b6/7 s4 only 0a3. 01e bolts directly to 40v chain v8. i believe thedual mass flywheel and clutch is used from b6/7 s4. if you want a lightweight single mass flywheel checkout the ttv offerings. if your allroad is allready manual and you have the v8 donor all you need is clutch/flywheel. you will also need to have the manual trans file flashed to the v8 ecu.

[Nollywood]

Swamper, do yourself a favour, and go with an 077-series 4.2 V8 40V (belt-driven). It's a robust unit, well proven, and will stand up to daily abuse, and still hold together.

The 079-series 4.2 V8 40V (chain-driven) on the other hand, is one of Audi's modern day disasters. It's fragile, and extremely high-maintenance. Timing chain lower guide failure, and scored bores from piston skirt contact, have been as well documented, as the 077-series motor has been proven.

The fact you have an 079-series V8 in your possession, is very little reason to use it. I would rather rebuild the 2.7T, or go with the more reliable 077 motor.

[swamper8]

Swapper, do yourself a favour, and go with an 077-series 4.2 V8 40V (belt-driven). It's a robust unit, well proven, and will stand up to daily abuse, and still hold together.

The 079-series 4.2 V8 40V (chain-driven) on the other hand, is one of Audi's modern day disasters. It's fragile, and extremely high-maintenance. Timing chain lower guide failure, and scored bores from piston skirt contact, have been as well documented, as the 077-series motor has been proven.

The fact you have an 079-series V8 in your possession, is very little reason to use it. I would rather rebuild the 2.7T, or go with the more reliable 077 motor.

As much as I'd like to do that, it's my understanding that the timing-belt version of the 4.2L will not fit into the Allroad. Nor the B6B7/S4. The timing-chain version of the motor was designed to be more compact to fit into the slightly smaller C5-Allroad chassis and B6B7 / S4 chassis. I wll perform a timing service (guides/tensioners) inspect cam adjusters and I'm hoping to be good to go for 100K.

[swamper8]

01e never used in b6/7 s4 only 0a3. 01e bolts directly to 40v chain v8. i believe thedual mass flywheel and clutch is used from b6/7 s4. if you want a lightweight single mass flywheel checkout the ttv offerings. if your allroad is allready manual and you have the v8 donor all you need is clutch/flywheel. you will also need to have the manual trans file flashed to the v8 ecu.

I'd really like a way to 100% confirm the B6/B7 0A3 clutch/flywheel will work with the 01E as well. It's a big investment to buy those parts only to have them be wrong! I appreciate this information though. I don't think I want a SMFW though it would be a slightly cheaper route. I've also found a couple posts online about using the manual trans flywheel from a 2.8 30V and then a stage II clutch to match the flywheel. But no real confirmation on that yet either.

[Nollywood]

As much as I'd like to do that, it's my understanding that the timing-belt version of the 4.2L will not fit into the Allroad. Nor the B6B7/S4. The timing-chain version of the motor was designed to be more compact to fit into the slightly smaller C5-Allroad chassis and B6B7 / S4 chassis. I wll perform a timing service (guides/tensioners) inspect cam adjusters and I'm hoping to be good to go for 100K.

I've swapped the belt-driven V8 into 5 B5 A4's to date. It fits. If it fits the B5, it'll certainly fit the much larger C5 engine bay.

My current B6 is also getting the same treatment - 077-series 4.2 V8 40V swap, albeit in boosted form this time.

[swamper8]

Well that is a big assumption. Based on that logic, a timing-belt 4.2L should also fit in the B6/B7 S4's (that currently have the timing-chain setup) but that's already been proven out by S4 guys that it doesn't fit. Given the limited number of 4.2L Allroads (optional in 2004/2005 only) I doubt anyone has attempted to put the timing-belt motor in. But since Audi chose the timing-chain motor, I have to believe there's space constraints. Not to say that the C5 Allroad engine bay couldn't be MODIFIED to accept the timing-belt 4.2L. Anyways, I don't plan on being the guinea pig for that. I'm not afraid of the timing-chain motors. There are aftermarket chain guides/tensioners that are superior to the original OEM parts.

[Nollywood]

Well that is a big assumption. Based on that logic, a timing-belt 4.2L should also fit in the B6/B7 S4's (that currently have the timing-chain setup) but that's already been proven out by S4 guys that it doesn't fit. Given the limited number of 4.2L Allroads (optional in 2004/2005 only) I doubt anyone has attempted to put the timing-belt motor in. But since Audi chose the timing-chain motor, I have to believe there's space constraints.

Assumption?? Where? I don't assume it would fit - it does fit. The B6 engine bay is 2.8" longer than that of the B5, that does accept a belt-driven V8! The C5 engine bay is is deeper than that of the B6, by some 2". Making it almost 5" deeper than that of the B5.

B6 S4 guys have proven that the 077-series, belt-driven V8 doesn't fit? I'd love to see a link to a B6 S4 owner, that has truly attempted this swap, and proved that it did not fit.

Are there aftermarket cylinder liners too, that don't get scored by the piston skirts, due to thermal expansion, and super close tolerances?

[swamper8]

Assumption?? Where? I don't assume it would fit - it does fit. The B6 engine bay is 2.8" longer than that of the B5, that does accept a belt-driven V8! The C5 engine bay is is deeper than that of the B6, by some 2". Making it almost 5" deeper than that of the B5.

B6 S4 guys have proven that the 077-series, belt-driven V8 doesn't fit? I'd love to see a link to a B6 S4 owner, that has truly attempted this swap, and proved that it did not fit.

Are there aftermarket cylinder liners too, that don't get scored by the piston skirts, due to thermal expansion, and super close tolerances?

I really have no interest in butting heads with you over this. I just don't do that in forums. But I'll ask the simple question, if the 4.2L timing belt motor fits in the B6/B7 S4 (as you state) than why aren't people switching over to that motor when they have timing guide/tensioner failures? I did a quick search to see if there's any threads or write up's for B6B7/S4 owners who want to use the T-belt motor instead of the t-chain motor and I really didn't find anything.
With all the timing chain failures that have occurred I can't imagine one single S4 owner hasn't asked about or attempted to install the timing-belt motor instead.

[Nollywood]

Swamper, relax. Forums are all about sharing ideas. I wasn't butting heads with you, if you feel I was, then I apologise unreservedly.

I wish you all the best with your swap.

[jettaowner718]

The 2.8 30v clutch kit does NOT fit a 2.7t or b6s4 flywheel


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[jettaowner718]

I can confirm this as I have a fwd b5 Passat with a 2.7t swap currently and I thought the 2.8 clutch would fit it doesn't only the disk are interchangeable between all 3 2.8,2.7 and 4.2


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[swamper8]

The 2.8 30v clutch kit does NOT fit a 2.7t or b6s4 flywheel


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OK thanks, understood. However does the manual trans 2.8 30V flywheel fit the 4.2L? If it does, a 2.8 30V clutch kit should work. It was the suggestion of a 2.8 flywheel on the 4.2L motor that I found by googling the topic. I believe that the 2.7T flywheel will not work but the 2.8 and 2.7 also are not directly interchangeable so I hope that doesn't exclude the possibility of the 2.8 flywheel. From what I read, someone used the 2.8 flywheel on a 4.2L and used a stage II 2.8 clutch setup. Not saying this is true, just what I read.
Sorry if you answered this in your post, but I don't 100% understand the last thing you said.

If I could just figure out if the B6B7/S4 0A3 flywheel/clutch setup will work with the 01E i'll just go with that. Given the expense of these components though I don't want to buy them and be stuck with the wrong parts.

[BCsniper]

Not trying to continue the will it/won't it fit debate, but....... the S6 in Avant for has a belt-driven 4.2. Is the A6 body/engine bay any smaller than the Allroads? I thought all the C5 chasis cars were the same

[Nollywood]

Not trying to continue the will it/won't it fit debate, but....... the S6 in Avant for has a belt-driven 4.2. Is the A6 body/engine bay any smaller than the Allroads? I thought all the C5 chasis cars were the same

The C5 with the 4.2 V8 40V belt-driven engine has a different front end to C5 1.8T / V6.

From the firewall forward, it's all different - longer hood, fenders, frame rails. Even the headlamps are unique to the V8. The C5 Allroad V8 retained the same engine bay and front end dimensions as non-V8 C5 models.

But yeah, the belt-driven V8 does fit all C5 non-V8 models, including the Allroad.

[swamper8]

Not trying to continue the will it/won't it fit debate, but....... the S6 in Avant for has a belt-driven 4.2. Is the A6 body/engine bay any smaller than the Allroads? I thought all the C5 chasis cars were the same

So the C5A6 has the 4.2L Timing belt

The C5 Allroad has the 4.2L Timing Chain.

If anyone is going to make the argument that the 4.2L belt motor will fit in place of the 4.2L chain motor in the Allroad than they would also have to provide a reasonable explanation as to why Audi simply just didn't put the 4.2L belt motor in the C5 Allroad from the factory.

There's a reason why the didn't use it.

I believe it's common knowledge that the 4.2L chain motor is shorter than the 4.2L belt motor. I don't know how much shorter and that would be good to find out.

I have a 4.2L Allroad in my garage right now that I'm parting out and is my donor car. I physically cannot fit my hand down between the front of the motor and the radiator/fan assembly. So IMO there is no way a 4.2L belt will fit in the Allroad without some type of modification to the front of the car.
Allroads have short snouts like S4's. They do not have the elongated nose of the C5A6 4.2L cars.....

I'll be happy to concede the point if someone can counter with better.

[Nollywood]

Swamper, am I allowed to debate this? Honestly, I'm not trying to make a big deal out of this, it's just forum sharing. If you'd rather I said nothing, no worries, I'll respect your wishes.

[swamper8]

Please go ahead and debate if you feel you can provide a different/better explanation. I feel like you disproved your own point in your last post but I just didn't feel like turning it into a big thing again.

[Nollywood]

If anyone is going to make the argument that the 4.2L belt motor will fit in place of the 4.2L chain motor in the Allroad than they would also have to provide a reasonable explanation as to why Audi simply just didn't put the 4.2L belt motor in the C5 Allroad from the factory.

There's a reason why the didn't use it.

Audi, like any other manufacturer, err on the side of practicality, when designing their models. Access to service items, air circulation / cooling, crumple zone space, the same reason the original I5 engine was withdrawn back in 1996. The list is endless.

It's not as straight forward as saying, there's a reason they didn't use the belt-driven V8 in the Allroad. We can go as far as asking why the wheels were not made more flush with the fenders, why the cars aren't lower, why the wheel size on a non-V8 C5 (narrow body) stopped at 17/18", when it's common knowledge 19" wheels do fit just fine, why a gigantic turbo wasn't fitted to the 1.8T / B5 S4, instead of the weedy K03, with its shaft that's weaker and as thin as a pencil.

When I first mentioned fitting the belt-driven V8 engine into the B5 A4, back in 2008, I met the same scepticism - it wouldn't fit, no space etc. By February 2009, I purchased a cheap FWD B5 1.8 N/A, as an R&D car. Once I proved the V8 did fit, the rest was history. I have since swapped 5 B5's with V8 32 / 40V motors, and thanks to this, so have many others. Now swapping 077-series V8 motors into the B5 is pretty common, with even the not-so mechanically inclined achieving this swap in less than 4 weeks. The B5 has a shorter engine bay than the C5, the only similarity is the width, and the 077-series V8 engine fits.

Sure, I'm aware B6 S4 owners have discussed the possibility of using the belt-driven V8 in place of the chain-driven original. But to my knowledge, none have actually attempted the swap, as in physically bolt in an 077, mated to any 6-speed manual into the B6 S4 shell, and try refitting the lock carrier.

The chain-driven (079) V8 is shorter than the belt-driven (077) version. It's a masterpiece of engineering, with the 4 chains at the rear. Swapping in a belt-driven motor is quite involved, not due to fitment, more due to the wiring complexity.

Again, I agree space between the front of the chain-driven motor and radiator / fan assembly in an Allroad. But that's just that - the fan / radiator. A slimline electric fan will replace the bulky factory one, and the radiator can be installed slightly further forward - if needed, but it won't be. The lower motor mount platform is multi-drilled too, and there are 3 possible permutations to install alternative engines - rearwards, mid and forwards.

I would sum it up here - B5, shorter engine bay, B6 engine bay is 2.8" longer, measured from the firewall to the chassis frame rails, the C5 narrowbody and Allroad engine bay, 2" longer than that of the B6, making it almost 5" longer than that of the B5, which does accept a belt-driven V8.

[swamper8]

You state that the fitment of the 4.2L belt to the Allroad may require using a different fan, moving the radiator slightly forward etc. That argument is that you can MAKE IT FIT. sure, you can make a lot of engines fit in a lot of cars. I've seen a 2.7T/01E in a freakin' Gulf. Absolutely no disagreement that with some modifications you can probably make the 4.2L belt motor fit in the AR. But as a straight clean swap? no way. Using Audi OEM parts and fitting as a factory fit should be, you aren't putting the 4.2L belt into the AR. They used the the 4.2L chain because it gained them the inches or fractions of inches needed so they didn't have to redesign the entire front end of the car. As they did with the C5 A6 4.2L cars like you stated earlier.

You can't say that the engine bay of the Allroad is 2" longer than that of the B6S4 and therefore accepts the 4.2L belt when I physically have a 4.2L AR in my garage with less than 1" between the motor and lock carrier. I will also make the point that the lock carrier in my 4.2L AR is already different than the one in my 2.7T. So Audi engineers already modified it to push the radiator forward more. If they could have pushed the radiator/fan far enough forward to fit the belt 4.2L i'm sure they would have.

Again, I agree you can make it fit. I don't agree that it would be using OEM parts and in OEM configurations. Making something fit just takes creativity, ingenuity and determination.

[swamper8]

Just so no one may think I'm blowing smoke, here are two photos of my 4.2L chain AR. First photo is how close the motor is to the radiator. And yes, there are fans down in there. As I said, you can't even put your hand down in between the two. Second photo shows how Audi pushed the radiator so far forward in the core support that the top edge is almost flush with the headlights. If someone wants to put a 4.2L belt in an Allroad......good luck. You will be doing some re-re-engineering.

[Nollywood]

Re-engineering? How much?

D3 4.2 V8 40V motor in a 2000 B5 A4 Quattro:

[Nollywood]

One thing to be aware of...the D3 A8 4.2 V8 40V is based upon the C5 RS6 motor (BCY). It is physically longer than that of the D2 / C5 V8. All my other swaps have been using the regular C5 / C5 blocks, this was an eye-opener. But, it fit just fine.

Besides trimming the radiator support, no re-engineering. No metalwork was cut, no welding was done, the secondary firewall is still intact. Engine is bolted to stock C5 V8 lower engine brackets.

[Nollywood]

With regards to bolting an 079-series 4.2 V8 (chain-driven) to an 01E, it will bolt up. But, I believe there are starter motor differences, and not all the bolt holes will match up. I can't remember which ones.

Different clutch slave cylinder? - Different from...?
Pretty much any clutch slave will work - 012, 01A, 01E. I would advise you go with a metal slave, though.

I would go with the correct 079-series (B6 S4) flywheel, and the matching clutch. Spacers are dirt cheap, so I would get a used one. Whether you would need one would depend on the bell housing depth difference between the 01E and 0A3.

Something tells me though, you're going to run into issues with starter motor compatibility, the 079 block is different at the rear, that's for sure. You may need to grind, and drill. And since you don't approve of non-OEM, and prefer a bolt-on solution, I don't understand why you would even want to go this route.

0A3 transmission will bolt up to the 079 block, but will require custom mounts, driveshaft and front axles, if the recipient vehicle is a C5. Re-engineering involved, a no-no for you.

01E transmission will bolt up to the 079 block, but not all holes will line up, and starter motor compatibility will likely be an issue. Drilling and grinding required. More re-engineering, which you don't like.

Just be aware - a swap doesn't mean everything is plug and play. Even fitting Brembo or even B7 RS4 front calipers requires modified brake lines. Installing a BAT on a 1.8T requires modified lines, brace, downpipe and exhaust manifold. Not a bad thing, but if 100% OEM is the order of the day, all our Audi's would be bone stock, and dare I say it, more reliable.

It may be better to replace or rebuild your 2.7T with the correct motor, and call it a day, as your options will certainly involve re-engineering.

[swamper8]

Thank you for all this information, it's very helpful. I think it's likely I will buy a used 01E for my car and attempt many dry fits this winter with the 4.2 chain motor out of my donor car. Trying to do the swap into my DD on a weekend or week off will probably be too stressful. I actually like the 2.7T better (minus the turbo positions) but I was just going for unique / fun project with this. My hope was to have the "one of one" 4.2L 6MT Allroad however JHM has beaten me to that punch. I know they've done at least one if not several. It's still an itch I want to scratch so I will most likely push on.
It's only hear-say, but the guy I bought my donor car from said his friend is an Audi tech and did the PDI on the only 4.2L/6MT/AR ever imported into the states. If true? Where did it end up? My assumption would be at the time they used the chain drive and 01E. I also believe the 4.2 / 6MT was available in Europe, just not the US.
And yes, I'm horny for OEM parts and fitment. I'm not an engineer but I work with 8 of them and it has a tendency to turn you into an anal perfectionist nut case.

[Nollywood]

The C5 Allroad 4.2 V8 in the UK were all automatics, I've never heard of a 6MT version in Europe, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

I was an Audi Technician for 13 years, and an Audi Master Technician for 8 of the 13 years. Volkswagen Master Technician for 5 years, winding down with a 2-year stint as a Senior Technician with Volkswagen Commercial.

I understand your desire to keep it all OEM, but honestly, with retrofits, it's virtually impossible, at the level you're considering. What you're looking to undertake is not a minor procedure, it's pretty big.

Yeah, definitely pick up a cheap R&D car, take your time, and perfect fitment. Once you've ironed out all the bugs, it'll be simply a case of transferring the working creation into your daily, with the minimum of downtime.

[neilpaku]

Hi Nollywood, I see that you were referring to engines with the code 079 and 077. What are these codes and how do they relate to codes like BHF, etc.? My wife's car has a BHF - does one of those number codes apply to it? Thanks in advance.
By the way, my clutch slave cylinder is still the original plastic. It works fine (or did a year ago when I removed the engine for timing service : ). Is it much of a pain to swap it out when/if it goes bad, when the engine/transmission are in the car? It would obviously be easy to do now while I have the room but is it an "only when the engine is out" service?

[Nollywood]

Neilpaku, the codes 077 and 079 refer to the base engine family. The BHF engine in the B6/7 S4 is an 079-series motor.

077-series is the belt-driven V8 engine:

3.6 V8 32V, fitted to Audi V8 D11, 1988 - 1994.
4.2 V8 32V, fitted to Audi V8 D11, 1990 - 1994.
3.7 V8 32V, fitted to Audi A8 D2, 1995 - 1999.
4.2 V8 32V, fitted to Audi A8 D2, 1995 - 1999.
4.2 V8 32V, fitted to Audi S8 D2, 1997 - 1999.
3.7 V8 40V, fitted to Audi A8 D2, 1999 - 2002.
4.2 V8 40V, fitted to Audi A8 D2, 1999 - 2002.
4.2 V8 40V, fitted to Audi S8 D2, 1999 - 2002.
3.7 V8 40V, fitted to Audi A8 D3, 2003 - 2005.
4.2 V8 40V, fitted to Audi A8 D3, 3003 - 2005.
4.2 V8 40V, fitted to Volkswagen Phaeton, 2002 - 2005.

079-series is the chain-driven V8 engine:

4.2 V8 40V, fitted to Audi S4 B6, 2002 - 2005.
4.2 V8 40V, fitted to Audi S4 B7, 2005 - 2008.
4.2 V8 32V FSI, fitted to Volkswagen Touareg 7L, 2007 - 2010.
4.2 V8 32V FSI, fitted to Audi A8 D3, 2005 - 2009.
4.2 V8 32V FSI, fitted to Audi Q7 4L, 2005 - 2015.
4.2 V8 32V FSI, fitted to Audi S5 B8, 2007 - 2012.
4.2 V8 32V FSI "high-revving", fitted to Audi RS5 B8, 2010 - 2015.
4.2 V8 32V FSI "high-revving", fitted to Audi RS4 B7, 2006 - 2008.
4.2 V8 32V FSI "high-revving", fitted to Audi R8 T42, 2007 - 2012.

Replacing the clutch slave cylinder with the engine and transmission in situ is not too bad. It's fitted from underneath the car, and definitely doesn't require an engine and transmission pull to gain access. I would wait until it fails, then replace it with an aluminium version.