Have I made 15-20 HP from an intake system? Yes.. yes I have (pretty graphs included)

[Worldrider]

What I've never understood: these highly tuned performance cars with massive R&D budgets to wring out every feasible bhp in development don't engineer intakes/filters to maximize breathing efficiency. How can K&N do what M or SRT can't/won't?


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[ZimbutheMonkey]

What I've never understood: these highly tuned performance cars with massive R&D budgets to wring out every feasible bhp in development don't engineer intakes/filters to maximize breathing efficiency. How can K&N do what M or SRT can't/won't?


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Same reasons as I mentioned at the start of the thread. Max power is often not on the top of the agenda. Muffling the intake sound is often their top priority (Lord only knows why though.... I mean, why would you want to hear induction sounds on your sports car.?!?!....)

As for the difference in filters, again, probably comes down to the fact that most people don't want a filter that they have to wash and re-oil and/or filtration requirements and keeping said filtration requirements consistent over the life of the vehicle. Cotton filters that the end user has to clean themselves can be cleaned improperly which could result in premature engine wear. There, now you have durability and consistency in filtration requirements as a limiting factor. It's also easier for the dealer to just swap out a paper filter rather than trying to get a cotton filter washed out and re-oiled at the service interval. Hence a paper filter.

To me however, what this goes to show is that far from what the vast majority of people assume, you CAN make an intake system that makes more power than the factory one does, because the factory engineers weren't out to wring every HP out of the car in the first place !!!!!

At the end of the day, virtually ANY road-going car has a multitude of compromises due to beancounters, emissions, noise reduction, dealer servicing requirements, the list goes on. For crying out loud, just look a the size of aftermarket vendor shows like SEMA. It's a multi-billion dollar industry for a reason....

[docurley]

I used to run a similar setup om my old B5 V6 PES supercharger A4 and I was not the only one with proven power gains over stock

[IMG][/IMG]

I also have another BMC floating around that a bought for my old B6 1.8T which I might try on the RS with the addition of the gold tape.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

I used to run a similar setup om my old B5 V6 PES supercharger A4 and I was not the only one with proven power gains over stock

[IMG][/IMG]

I also have another BMC floating around that a bought for my old B6 1.8T which I might try on the RS with the addition of the gold tape.

Cool do you have any links that you can add or any data that you can throw up here on that point? I'd love to see it.

Like you and I seem to agree, this type of setup that you and I both have, (as well as that other member with the V6 3.0 I linked to earlier) seems to be a proven power adder on these cars.

Again, I think that the CDA design, (which I approximated with my intake filter) when paired with a long intake tube that exits straight to atmosphere rather than the much shorter intake tract on the stock Audi airboxes which exits into the sealed airbox and is subjected to interference from incoming airflow (as opposed to the counterpulses meeting straight atmosphere at the end of our modified intake tubes) allows the engine to make use of resonance tuning.

To wit, imagine blowing over the end of a long glass tube, vs a shorter one attached to a sealed box with incoming air. They will resonate at different frequencies and one may resonate much easier than the other one (think Hemholtz freqencies). It's difficult to explain by text, but you can probably catch my meaning.

[Terry.Reese]

I haven't been able to do any logging yet. But i feel a difference on mine. Punchier feeling to me. Once i get the timing redone and such i can start logging as well.

[docurley]

This was way back so I have had to hunt around a bit to pull up the info

This was a thread I started on it
http://scaudi.com/sc/index.php?showtopic=1862&st=20

http://www.audiworld.com/forums/a4-b...irbox-2359871/

I did try and find a article where a British performance magazine did a test of some of the best air induction kits on the market at the time to see if there was any gains to be had and the BMC came way out best with 10-15bhp gains on a NA car (Not an Audi I would like to add)..

[Terry.Reese]

So went on a long road trip. About 600ish miles, happy with my results.

https://youtu.be/2XQHz-9W65U



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[ZimbutheMonkey]

Here's another interesting article for all the naysayers who think that OEM airboxes can't be improved on.

MotoIQ tested a simple K&N panel filter and silicone elbow combo on a V8 M5 and found that just this combo netted them 7 WHP peak power and over 10 WHP at the end of the RPM band.

M5 KN AND OEM FILTERS by zimbu themonkey, on Flickr

M5 ELBOWS by zimbu themonkey, on Flickr

M5 KN FILTER AND ELBOWS by zimbu themonkey, on Flickr

Note that this is on an M5, a car that is in a higher state of tune than our S4's

[sonosam]

M5 ELBOWS by zimbu themonkey, on Flickr

I know you're trying to prove a point, but look at the turbulence points in that stock elbow. Pretty sure that it has been know since performance tuning was a thing that turbulence is mostly bad.

I am seriously contemplating doing your mod in the original post. The ram, unsealed intake the PO put on my car isn't helping.

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[Terry.Reese]

Now that you have this thing fab'd, is it pretty easy to swap back and forth between the stock and fab'd version? If so some same-day comparisons might be helpful?

mine is, swap would take literally 10-15 minutes to pull mine and put the stock one back in. just make sure you have all your stock pieces and have a spare MAF as I used mine and manipulated it.

[Fourpoint282]

I have the k&n and aftermarket MAF setup and didn’t notice a difference, though I’m sure a computer can pickup slight gains


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[Terry.Reese]

I have the k&n and aftermarket MAF setup and didn’t notice a difference, though I’m sure a computer can pickup slight gains


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What MAF? Have a link? Thanks

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[VinnysS4]

I'm sure you could re pin the connector and use a larger maf. Just find one that uses the same sensor but larger opening.

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[Fourpoint282]

What MAF? Have a link? Thanks

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034...it's a one piece silicone hose like the one pictured above


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[docurley]

It sounds like a silicon intake pipe not a maf housing change, something like mine.






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[Fourpoint282]

It sounds like a silicon intake pipe not a maf housing change, something like mine.






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Correct, I used the wrong verbiage


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[Terry.Reese]

Correct, I used the wrong verbiage


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Is that 4 inch maf?

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[q_dubz]

Is that 4 inch maf?

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no

[Terry.Reese]

Hose must just look weird.

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[Terry.Reese]

New intake build, have purple silicone tuning coming and a new MAF in already.IMG_20180610_210252493_LL~01.jpegIMG_20180610_210310471_LL~01.jpegIMG_20180610_210305176_LL~01.jpeg

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[ZimbutheMonkey]

So Terry, what does that aux rad connect to and how did you go about blocking it off?

If it's not really required, I'd be more than happy to rip it out in order to do a proper long ram intake on my 6 speed. I couldn't re-use the one I made on my Cabrio as there are differences in structural bracing between the two and there was a big hunk of steel in the way of last 1/3 of my Cabrio air intake.

[Jdsb6s4]

This.

The testing of an intake system like this while being very interesting to read about from a theory standpoint, really doesn't matter to a lot of people until it physically is proven to make a difference in a way that they can understand. For this setting that would be on a dyno or at the dragstrip. I actually did enjoy reading the first page of posts a while ago but this has spiraled out of control in my opinion.

Pretty sure that he is looking into making his own exhaust if I remember correctly from some of his old posts.

X2....just is just too much talk for such little gains... I just wanna see footage of you actually running your car on a real track to shut everyone up. (not talking drag strip)

[Terry.Reese]

VinnyS is making a walkthrough on removing it, I just followed all the hoses and found that I could attach one hose to the T portion coming off to go the auxiliary and remove the hose going into the lower valve of the auxiliary hose portion and meet them. you cannot run anything without removing this as there is literally no room at all.

[Terry.Reese]

X2....just is just too much talk for such little gains... I just wanna see footage of you actually running your car on a real track to shut everyone up. (not talking drag strip)

I do know that on my other setup I had, I ran way cooler in the engine bay (stock box I couldnt put my hand on the IM without getting really hot, my older setup, cool feeling, even after a 600 mile drive), even had better MPG, avg 2 mpg better, not a lot but it is still a difference, once my ECU gets back I will start keeping track of mileage, as for racing, there is a certain B7 S4 in town that keeps saying he is going to race me and smoke me.. just because he is manual.. I am going to eat him alive.

[Jdsb6s4]

I do know that on my other setup I had, I ran way cooler in the engine bay (stock box I couldnt put my hand on the IM without getting really hot, my older setup, cool feeling, even after a 600 mile drive), even had better MPG, avg 2 mpg better, not a lot but it is still a difference, once my ECU gets back I will start keeping track of mileage, as for racing, there is a certain B7 S4 in town that keeps saying he is going to race me and smoke me.. just because he is manual.. I am going to eat him alive.

Yeah I don't feel the manual is advantageous on a road course as far as being faster. However, if you guys are both running a track day with 20-30 minute WOT runs, the tiptronic has a good possiblitiy of over heating and dropping the car into limp mode. Even with the weight reduction of a manual tranmission it does not make it faster, just more reliable.

[Matt@Jackal]

I know its been a while, but this thread came up in a search as im looking to make a custom intake, and test it tuning wise.

Currently my 2 shop cars (both are 2005 S4's, Piggie pipes, catback exhaust, and a simple k&n drop in)
Make between 317-322WHP (mustang dyno). As we know these engines are octane and air limited.
(for reference, JHMs garbage can tune made 297WHP on both cars)

For a while i was looking at way to make a custom intake for these cars, thought about finding a APR carbino and test that. but your seems to be the best best thus far.

Zimbu, after reading this i ordered the same filter, and will make a similar set up (my aux radiator is deleted, because they are useless)

I will be doing some dyno testing with the new intake, provide graphs and feedback on the outcome, but i can assure from your testing, this will net in gains across the board.

The amount of nay sayers amaze me, "if JHM says its not worth it, then it isn't, they are the best"

Well, JHM says they have the best tune for the B6 and my dyno runs prove that otherwise...

I will be in touch! and great work figuring out how to make a good, effective intake for these cars.

[VinnysS4]

Currently my 2 shop cars (both are 2005 S4's, Piggie pipes, catback exhaust, and a simple k&n drop in)
Make between 317-322WHP (mustang dyno). As we know these engines are octane and air limited.
(for reference, JHMs garbage can tune made 297WHP on both cars)



JHM says they have the best tune for the B6 and my dyno runs prove that otherwise...

Which tune are you running or was it custom? Those are high numbers for a car with almost no mods. The latest car i worked on that hit the dyno with 49k miles, headers, k+n panel filter, fast intentions exhaust and a lightweight flywheel made 302whp with the JHM 91 tune.

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[Matt@Jackal]

Which tune are you running or was it custom? Those are high numbers for a car with almost no mods. The latest car i worked on that hit the dyno with 49k miles, headers, k+n panel filter, fast intentions exhaust and a lightweight flywheel made 302whp with the JHM 91 tune.

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Vinny,
I am running my custom tune (Jackal Motorsports).
Spent a greater part of a year creating custom definitions to be able to tune the platform properly. Been tuning subarus for around 10 years now (mainly via Romraider)
These numbers were on a mustang dyno, JHM flash was on my vehicle when purchased, it made 297WHP. which is the usual number i see. To me, the car drove like shit.
Being irritated with how much timing the car was pulling and how badly it drove with the JHM tune, i decided to vest time into the platform and actually tune the car properly.

One of the shop cars (Needs adjusters) made 317WHP, the other one made 322WHP, with the same exact flash and mods. Both cars still have their stock main cats.
I have since made a few changes on the street where the cars feels faster than those runs on the dyno. But havent been back to confirm a power increase, i was waiting to find an APR carbino to test for tuning purposes, but ran into this thread.

I will be testing it with this intake set up Zimbu shared, as were really limited by air and octane. one of the shop cars will also be getting meth injection, and we will be going from there.

Videos and dyno charts are on my facebook page - Jackal Motorsports.

[VinnysS4]

Vinny,
I am running my custom tune (Jackal Motorsports).
Spent a greater part of a year creating custom definitions to be able to tune the platform properly. Been tuning subarus for around 10 years now (mainly via Romraider)
These numbers were on a mustang dyno, JHM flash was on my vehicle when purchased, it made 297WHP. which is the usual number i see. To me, the car drove like shit.
Being irritated with how much timing the car was pulling and how badly it drove with the JHM tune, i decided to vest time into the platform and actually tune the car properly.

One of the shop cars (Needs adjusters) made 317WHP, the other one made 322WHP, with the same exact flash and mods. Both cars still have their stock main cats.
I have since made a few changes on the street where the cars feels faster than those runs on the dyno. But havent been back to confirm a power increase, i was waiting to find an APR carbino to test for tuning purposes, but ran into this thread.

I will be testing it with this intake set up Zimbu shared, as were really limited by air and octane. one of the shop cars will also be getting meth injection, and we will be going from there.

Videos and dyno charts are on my facebook page - Jackal Motorsports.

Hell yeah man! Good work!

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[Atomic Avant]

Vinny,
I am running my custom tune (Jackal Motorsports).
Spent a greater part of a year creating custom definitions to be able to tune the platform properly. Been tuning subarus for around 10 years now (mainly via Romraider)
These numbers were on a mustang dyno, JHM flash was on my vehicle when purchased, it made 297WHP. which is the usual number i see. To me, the car drove like shit.
Being irritated with how much timing the car was pulling and how badly it drove with the JHM tune, i decided to vest time into the platform and actually tune the car properly.

One of the shop cars (Needs adjusters) made 317WHP, the other one made 322WHP, with the same exact flash and mods. Both cars still have their stock main cats.
I have since made a few changes on the street where the cars feels faster than those runs on the dyno. But havent been back to confirm a power increase, i was waiting to find an APR carbino to test for tuning purposes, but ran into this thread.

I will be testing it with this intake set up Zimbu shared, as were really limited by air and octane. one of the shop cars will also be getting meth injection, and we will be going from there.

Videos and dyno charts are on my facebook page - Jackal Motorsports.

This is interesting. looking forward to see what else you have.

[Matt@Jackal]

This is interesting. looking forward to see what else you have.

Like I mentioned above the progress is on my business page on Facebook. I’m New to this forum and when I have time I will do a full write up on my tune and how it compares to others, what mistakes I found that other tunes for this platform make. Etc. once the definitions were made, it really wasn’t hard to make more power than all the other flashes, even with just basic mods. Not sure if JHM doesn’t have all the proper definitions to really fine tune these cars or what, but from what I was able to see, They didn’t put a lot of effort into it IMO, But anyways, I will be posting here shortly once I test this intake set up. I have a feeling it will net some more power by the log readings Zimbus posted. The stock air box is def not the best option, it never is for any vehicle. But when no one takes the time to make one it’s all we’re left with. I scheduled a day on my buddies dyno in January and will post up how this set up worked out.


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[q_dubz]

Like I mentioned above the progress is on my business page on Facebook. I’m New to this forum and when I have time I will do a full write up on my tune and how it compares to others, what mistakes I found that other tunes for this platform make. Etc. once the definitions were made, it really wasn’t hard to make more power than all the other flashes, even with just basic mods. Not sure if JHM doesn’t have all the proper definitions to really fine tune these cars or what, but from what I was able to see, They didn’t put a lot of effort into it IMO, But anyways, I will be posting here shortly once I test this intake set up. I have a feeling it will net some more power by the log readings Zimbus posted. The stock air box is def not the best option, it never is for any vehicle. But when no one takes the time to make one it’s all we’re left with. I scheduled a day on my buddies dyno in January and will post up how this set up worked out.


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All accurate points and observations.

[mtwallace85]

Like I mentioned above the progress is on my business page on Facebook. I’m New to this forum and when I have time I will do a full write up on my tune and how it compares to others, what mistakes I found that other tunes for this platform make. Etc. once the definitions were made, it really wasn’t hard to make more power than all the other flashes, even with just basic mods. Not sure if JHM doesn’t have all the proper definitions to really fine tune these cars or what, but from what I was able to see, They didn’t put a lot of effort into it IMO, But anyways, I will be posting here shortly once I test this intake set up. I have a feeling it will net some more power by the log readings Zimbus posted. The stock air box is def not the best option, it never is for any vehicle. But when no one takes the time to make one it’s all we’re left with. I scheduled a day on my buddies dyno in January and will post up how this set up worked out.


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Without acceleration testing, your dyno plots, which you didn’t even post, and claims mean nothing. Not here to defend JHM, but if you want to come in here and claim you’re making improvements on the go-to Audi V8 performance shop in the US, who also holds all the world records, then maybe you should at least provide some proof. I personally know the tuner and would be willing to bet he’s done more with these cars and knows more than you ever will. Have you even done any 0-60, 60-130, 1/8 mile, or 1/4 mile testing? If not, you might want to get on it so you can see how fast, or slow, your car is actually going. If so, maybe you should consider sharing this info rather than hiding it. Unless of course your idea of racing people is holding your dyno plot out the window to show it to the faster car next to you.

[Jdsb6s4]

Without acceleration testing, your dyno plots, which you didn’t even post, and claims mean nothing. Not here to defend JHM, but if you want to come in here and claim you’re making improvements on the go-to Audi V8 performance shop in the US, who also holds all the world records, then maybe you should at least provide some proof. I personally know the tuner and would be willing to bet he’s done more with these cars and knows more than you ever will. Have you even done any 0-60, 60-130, 1/8 mile, or 1/4 mile testing? If not, you might want to get on it so you can see how fast, or slow, your car is actually going. If so, maybe you should consider sharing this info rather than hiding it. Unless of course your idea of racing people is holding your dyno plot out the window to show it to the faster car next to you.

Yeah Matt. It’s definitely though battle for me to even believe this with all the mods I have done. These claims are also rs4 numbers with mods. I wanna see 40-100 mph runs to speak truth. I mean, that’s what I do. I am hear to crack the case on any “keyboard warrior” talk


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[Matt@Jackal]

Yeah Matt. It’s definitely though battle for me to even believe this with all the mods I have done. These claims are also rs4 numbers with mods. I wanna see 40-100 mph runs to speak truth. I mean, that’s what I do. I am hear to crack the case on any “keyboard warrior” talk


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Did we forget what a dyno is even for? Or, more importantly, how it actually calculates horsepower/torque? It calculates it by how fast/quickly a vehicle accelerates........If my tune made, say, a few horse power more? (3-4) Then We could argue acceleration/dyno error. My tune Is making quite a bit more power throughout the entire power band. Which equates to faster acceleration. Quite simple really, if I make more horsepower/torque quicker and longer than you do, in the same vehicle, I’m faster. That’s how it works. Driver error is always a different story.

I made a dyno run to prove the vehicle makes more power across the entire rpm range. Same platform, same Mods. Normally I can agree dyno numbers are here say. But then you get the haters that say “show me the dyno sheets” so I made them. Again, this isn’t 3hp we’re discussing. My tune was mainly done on the street, obviously it was faster and smoother, so we took a ride to my buddies dyno. Flashed JHM back on and compared them. JHM made 297, we then flashed my tune on both identical cars, one made 317 and my car 322. That’s a decent difference... A few final adjustments were made to the tune on the dyno. But for the most part in my area, especially with all the Subaru’s, We street tune. But as stated above. Needed the numbers for the nay sayers.

IMG_3967.jpg


The tune has since had a few more adjustments on the street. And will be getting more with an intake set up, the other car with meth. Then back to the dyno. It’s winter here, the strip close by is closed. When spring time comes I will Gladly hit up the strip with both cars, As well as Palmer Motorsports to get some lap times. Racing is nothing new, I had a 500+whp sti I tracked back when I first started that ran 10’s. But as stated, dyno numbers/comparison was for those who “need to see the numbers” :)


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[Matt@Jackal]

IMG_3960.JPG





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[mtwallace85]

Took the Jackal Motorsports S4s to the dyno and the strip. It peaked at 290hp at 2900rpms and went down from there. Then I took them both to the strip and they ran [email protected]. Here’s my proof:



Wouldn’t be surprised if Jackal Motorsports uses this dyno methodology:

https://youtu.be/sDwjfZvmPHg

[Matt@Jackal]

Took the Jackal Motorsports S4s to the dyno and the strip. It peaked at 290hp at 2900rpms and went down from there. Then I took them both to the strip and they ran [email protected]. Here’s my proof:



Wouldn’t be surprised if Jackal Motorsports uses this dyno methodology:

https://youtu.be/sDwjfZvmPHg

Typical fanboy response.. Or did you just not realize how a dyno actually works? Or why HP/TQ is important when tuning vehicles?


The same exact car makes more horsepower and torque entirely across the rpm range - BuT dOeS iT AcCeLeRaTe FaStEr BrO?

APR makes less power than JHM, does APR accelerate faster? or JHM because they make more power? Hmm


A normal enthusiast would be happy that their car can potentially make more power, and that there is actually people trying to make more improvements to this platform.

Clearly your nose is to far up JHMs butt to appreciate progress. Sorry to hear that. Enjoy.





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[AlexB6S4]

Typical fanboy response.. Or did you just not realize how a dyno actually works? Or why HP/TQ is important when tuning vehicles?


The same exact car makes more horsepower and torque entirely across the rpm range - BuT dOeS iT AcCeLeRaTe FaStEr BrO?

APR makes less power than JHM, does APR accelerate faster? or JHM because they make more power? Doh.



A normal enthusiast would be happy that their car can potentially make more power, and that there is actually people trying to make more improvements to this platform.

Clearly your nose is to far up JHMs butt to appreciate progress. Sorry to hear that. Enjoy.





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I believe your approach was flawed if you were expecting a different reaction. I am fairly new to these boards but in the short while I have been lurking around, it is easy to tell that many members have spent a lot of money at JHM and these forums are somewhat swayed.

The causality of your comments branches to the customers that have spent money at JHM as they are now defending themself against you. No one wants to acknowledge that their money was not well spent. This circles back to your business in a negative way as now there is a possible group of people that will not spend money at your establishment even if you found the holy grail.

I would have suggested to just provide your data and back it up without trying to trump a competitor. This was hard to write as I get very annoyed at the amount of people who think JHM is the end all be all. Just my $0.02


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[Matt@Jackal]

I believe your approach was flawed if you were expecting a different reaction. I am fairly new to these boards but in the short while I have been lurking around, it is easy to tell that many members have spent a lot of money at JHM and these forums are somewhat swayed.

The causality of your comments branches to the customers that have spent money at JHM as they are now defending themself against you. No one wants to acknowledge that their money was not well spent. This circles back to your business in a negative way as now there is a possible group of people that will not spend money at your establishment even if you found the holy grail.

I would have suggested to just provide your data and back it up without trying to trump a competitor. This was hard to write as I get very annoyed at the amount of people who think JHM is the end all be all. Just my $0.02


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I can respect that.

I came on this forum strictly to figure out intakes for these cars, specifically just for this thread as I found someone who used factual data to figure out something that works. And he was still hated on by the same fanboys. Which is a shame cause he really has proper data here.

I have plenty of local business and didn’t come in here strictly for selling a tune. If people want a better option, I’m more than happy to share it. If not, that’s fine too. If people wanna over pay for an off the shelf tune that pulls timing. That’s on them. As you said the JHM scene on here is greatly swayed and it’s why I’ve stayed clear of this forum for quite some time. The members above your comment are prime examples, they were presented with data, ignore it and go straight to insulting.. I get it. They are close to who ever tunes for JHM and it’s tough to see someone else figure out a better tune. Been there with Subaru’s when it was first a thing 10 years ago. JHM did a great job tuning these cars a long time ago when they first figured it out. No doubt.

This is not my full time gig. I’m a firefighter. This is my side business/hobby that I’ve been doing for 10+ years.


There was no easier way to write it, where’s the proof, here it is, dyno runs, oh that’s not proof. Oh. Ok. Let’s get to insulting due to lack of understanding.

It’s Typical. I expected the fanboy backlash, trust me. It’s simply comical to me at this point. I won’t lose sleep at night because the competition doesn’t want to accept my data. It was expected. In the spring I’ll take the time to do a full write up with track times, videos, dyno graphs and logs.



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