**OFFICIAL** Life Beyond Stage II: the higher stage development thread

[Loe]

My lpfp may be on its way out. Whats the consensus for eventual dual pulley cars on getting the latest proper AS non flex replacement or buying the AN flec fuel pump? Is the flex fuel pump just going to cause headaches with the bucket running dry or is it a better option?

Thanks
Mike

It's like a catch 22...the E85 pump does work pretty well compared to the non-E85 pump (which itself is already pretty decent for at least 65% ethanol for me), but the bucket design makes it not work pretty well, so it introduces the dry bucket issue. If you are wanting to use the E85 pump, you'll have to strap on a side-pump to either the side of the bucket or somehow rig it sideways across the top of the bucket (easiest) and run a inlet tube on the outside of the bucket so that it sucks fuel into the bucket to keep the bucket from running dry.

But at the same time, you'll still want to strap on a 450lph on the non-E85 pump to run it as a secondary LPFP pump based on boost, to avoid hitting the 75% PWM ceiling once you get beyond the 187mm crank zones (i've seen limits with both non-e and e-based fuels, it's dependent on car apparently). The HPFP does help, but it still puts the OEM pump near 75% PWM. Either way, it'll eventually cost at lesat $500 in fuel upgrades to keep the car in tip-top shape.

So really I didn't answer your question. Let's start with, what are you the goals with the car?

[bhvrdr]

It's like a catch 22...the E85 pump does work pretty well compared to the non-E85 pump (which itself is already pretty decent for at least 65% ethanol for me), but the bucket design makes it not work pretty well, so it introduces the dry bucket issue. If you are wanting to use the E85 pump, you'll have to strap on a side-pump to either the side of the bucket or somehow rig it sideways across the top of the bucket (easiest) and run a inlet tube on the outside of the bucket so that it sucks fuel into the bucket to keep the bucket from running dry.

But at the same time, you'll still want to strap on a 450lph on the non-E85 pump to run it as a secondary LPFP pump based on boost, to avoid hitting the 75% PWM ceiling once you get beyond the 187mm crank zones (i've seen limits with both non-e and e-based fuels, it's dependent on car apparently). The HPFP does help, but it still puts the OEM pump near 75% PWM. Either way, it'll eventually cost at lesat $500 in fuel upgrades to keep the car in tip-top shape.

So really I didn't answer your question. Let's start with, what are you the goals with the car?

Haha actually i think you might have answered it great.

If im understanding it correctly i should go with te AN pump because for me ill likely be running straigt 93 octane 99.9% of the time. Maybe a couple times a year i would try 100 octane mix or maybe octane booster or maybe 3 gallons of e85 but i dont have e85 around me so not likely to.

So is the flex fuel one the right one for me and is the AN the latest updated version as far as we know assuming 3.2pr with ported blower on non e85 fuels?

Thanks again for the info

Mike

[PeteRock]

It's like a catch 22...the E85 pump does work pretty well compared to the non-E85 pump (which itself is already pretty decent for at least 65% ethanol for me), but the bucket design makes it not work pretty well, so it introduces the dry bucket issue. If you are wanting to use the E85 pump, you'll have to strap on a side-pump to either the side of the bucket or somehow rig it sideways across the top of the bucket (easiest) and run a inlet tube on the outside of the bucket so that it sucks fuel into the bucket to keep the bucket from running dry.

But at the same time, you'll still want to strap on a 450lph on the non-E85 pump to run it as a secondary LPFP pump based on boost, to avoid hitting the 75% PWM ceiling once you get beyond the 187mm crank zones (i've seen limits with both non-e and e-based fuels, it's dependent on car apparently). The HPFP does help, but it still puts the OEM pump near 75% PWM. Either way, it'll eventually cost at lesat $500 in fuel upgrades to keep the car in tip-top shape.

So really I didn't answer your question. Let's start with, what are you the goals with the car?

Hey Loe,

Can you shed some light on the specifics of this setup again for us B8.5 S5 guys? From my understanding this is likely the only option for LPFP upgrades on our cars and is especially important for those with 200mm crank pulleys and ported blowers etc.

I ask because I recently connected with S4Matty about his Walbro 450lph setup and he said that B8.5 guys can’t run this setup because our OEM LPFPs are brushless and the Torqbyte controller isn’t compatible

Which 450lph pump are you referring to and are you still triggering it with the hobbs boost switch? I thought that I remember you changing up the way that it was triggered.....

Thanks!


Pete

[RWD2quattro]

Hey Loe,
I ask because I recently connected with S4Matty about his Walbro 450lph setup and he said that B8.5 guys can’t run this setup because our OEM LPFPs are brushless and the Torqbyte controller isn’t compatible

Thanks!

Pete

Pete, Torqbyte now has a VAG PM4 that allows our B8.5 to run a Walbro 450 or 525lph pump. You have to completely remove the stock pump from bucket and adapt new pump to bucket (cut the bottom off) and use a Holley hydramat with a single Walbro or DW400.
See link below,
https://torqbyte.com/collections/pro...control-module

https://www.instagram.com/p/BdPECDfDda-/

[PeteRock]

Pete, Torqbyte now has a VAG PM4 that allows our B8.5 to run a Walbro 450 or 525lph pump. You have to completely remove the stock pump from bucket and adapt new pump to bucket (cut the bottom off) and use a Holley hydramat with a single Walbro or DW400.
See link below,
https://torqbyte.com/collections/pro...control-module

https://www.instagram.com/p/BdPECDfDda-/

WOW! Mind Blown! Thanks man!

Every time I check Torqbyte’s website they are always out of stock of whatever item I’m looking at....they must build these to order or keep minimal stock because I can’t imagine they sell that many of them


Pete

[PeteRock]

Pete, Torqbyte now has a VAG PM4 that allows our B8.5 to run a Walbro 450 or 525lph pump. You have to completely remove the stock pump from bucket and adapt new pump to bucket (cut the bottom off) and use a Holley hydramat with a single Walbro or DW400.
See link below,
https://torqbyte.com/collections/pro...control-module

https://www.instagram.com/p/BdPECDfDda-/

Are you or anyone else running this setup on a B8.5 S5?

Curious to hear how it performs and if the controller needs to be programmed or if it can just run off of our ECU


Pete

[friskuh]

Pete, Torqbyte now has a VAG PM4 that allows our B8.5 to run a Walbro 450 or 525lph pump. You have to completely remove the stock pump from bucket and adapt new pump to bucket (cut the bottom off) and use a Holley hydramat with a single Walbro or DW400.
See link below,
https://torqbyte.com/collections/pro...control-module

https://www.instagram.com/p/BdPECDfDda-/

any development from fuel-it?

[whiped]

Pete if you reach out to Torqbyte they can probably hook you up.

They are great guys, I talked to them a lot last year before resolving my low-pressure issues.

[PeteRock]

Pete if you reach out to Torqbyte they can probably hook you up.

They are great guys, I talked to them a lot last year before resolving my low-pressure issues.

Thanks Geoff! I reached out to Alex last night....just waiting to hear back.....last time I connected with him they were a few weeks out from releasing their LPFP solution for the B8.5 OEM brushless pump setup so I’m glad to see that it’s available now....should be a pretty straightforward upgrade once I have the controller :)


Pete

[Loe]

are you still running out of fuel with your aux bucket?

[PeteRock]

are you still running out of fuel with your aux bucket?

Hey Loe....it’s kind of a long story but I was ok for a while running the IE surge tank with Bosch 044 pump but that pump isn’t rated for ethanol and it’s noisy under normal conditions but it recently started to fail so I decided to swap it for the AEM 400lph pump and had a lot of issues so I decided to remove the surge tank completely for now....through some convos with IE tech support they informed me that I shouldn’t be using their surge tank because it’s only intended for use with return fuel systems and that they have never heard of anyone successfully running the setup on a B8.5 S5

All that being said I have been seeing lean condition codes popping up frequently since running with just the Autotech HPFP upgrade with ethanol content as low as E25-30 and although I haven’t experienced any bad fuel cuts I can tell that the OEM pump is holding back at a certain point during WOT

I recently went with one of Matty’s ported blowers and ported the APR UC boost elbow as well and AFRs have been higher ever since

I think it’s time to make the upgrade and the Torqbyte setup paired with a Walbro 450 or 520lph fitted to a Hydramat seems like the most ideal and simple solution

Alex at Torqbyte will have more PM4s in a couple of weeks and mentioned that while IG demand for this kit from the B8.5 guys was high that nobody has actually purchased one yet.....looks like I might be the first one


Pete

[PeteRock]

Hey Loe....it’s kind of a long story but I was ok for a while running the IE surge tank with Bosch 044 pump but that pump isn’t rated for ethanol and it’s noisy under normal conditions but it recently started to fail so I decided to swap it for the AEM 400lph pump and had a lot of issues so I decided to remove the surge tank completely for now....through some convos with IE tech support they informed me that I shouldn’t be using their surge tank because it’s only intended for use with return fuel systems and that they have never heard of anyone successfully running the setup on a B8.5 S5

All that being said I have been seeing lean condition codes popping up frequently since running with just the Autotech HPFP upgrade with ethanol content as low as E25-30 and although I haven’t experienced any bad fuel cuts I can tell that the OEM pump is holding back at a certain point during WOT

I recently went with one of Matty’s ported blowers and ported the APR UC boost elbow as well and AFRs have been higher ever since

I think it’s time to make the upgrade and the Torqbyte setup paired with a Walbro 450 or 520lph fitted to a Hydramat seems like the most ideal and simple solution

Alex at Torqbyte will have more PM4s in a couple of weeks and mentioned that while IG demand for this kit from the B8.5 guys was high that nobody has actually purchased one yet.....looks like I might be the first one


Pete

On another note ECS should update their website because they list the IE surge tank and say that it “Does Fit” the B8.5 S5 which is the farthest thing from true if you ask IE


Pete

[bhvrdr]

On another note ECS should update their website because they list the IE surge tank and say that it “Does Fit” the B8.5 S5 which is the farthest thing from true if you ask IE


Pete

Oh shit good to know i was just looking at that on their site shopping for fuel pumps and was like hey that would be nice to have

[PeteRock]

Oh shit good to know i was just looking at that on their site shopping for fuel pumps and was like hey that would be nice to have

Yeah don’t go down that rabbit hole....anything is possible and the shop that did all of my fuel system work builds Porsche race cars so they actually designed a setup to make it work but it’s not at all practical and the Torqbyte solution is far more Plug N Play and would have been way less expensive

Our fuel systems are returnless so no surge tanks are truly compatible unless you create a return which “can” be done but I don’t suggest doing it when this option is much easier.....and it causes a permanent code for evap system leaks to be present when you convert it to a return system.....just not worth it


Pete

[PeteRock]

Yeah don’t go down that rabbit hole....anything is possible and the shop that did all of my fuel system work builds Porsche race cars so they actually designed a setup to make it work but it’s not at all practical and the Torqbyte solution is far more Plug N Play and would have been way less expensive

Our fuel systems are returnless so no surge tanks are truly compatible unless you create a return which “can” be done but I don’t suggest doing it when this option is much easier.....and it causes a permanent code for evap system leaks to be present when you convert it to a return system.....just not worth it


Pete

If anyone wants to go this route let me know....I’ll gladly sell all the components needed at a huge discount ;)


Pete

[PeteRock]

One other really interesting part about the Torqbyte PM4 is that it completely replaces our OEM controller and performs as the ECU and specific ECU Tune Map asks and can also be programmed if needed.....initially I was thinking that programming might not be needed but we’ll have to see what if any performance barriers appear in my initial logs and if they do appear the Torqbyte controller can be programmed to overcome them....the most intriguing was Alex’s mention of some Tuners ECU Maps calling for the OEM controller to drop command during WOT which could be the cause of the launch control issues that I have been reading about.....see below from Alex....

You can tune the slope in the PM4 to adjust for the fact your pumps flow a lot more than the brushless pump being replaced. PM4 also lets you log to verify your tuning isn’t doing bad things like dropping command at WOT (which we see a lot lately because fuel pressure loops are very sophisticated and most tuning companies don’t have the technical depth to understand how they work and how to modify them)


Pete

[RWD2quattro]

any development from fuel-it?

Yes, a Walbro 525 along with stock pump was shipped Friday and should be here mid week and I'll install this coming weekend.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BpNl3a9lLET/

[friskuh]

Yes, a Walbro 525 along with stock pump was shipped Friday and should be here mid week and I'll install this coming weekend.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BpNl3a9lLET/

damnnn, okay. now we need to look for more power lmao

[ModItNow]

Yes, a Walbro 525 along with stock pump was shipped Friday and should be here mid week and I'll install this coming weekend.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BpNl3a9lLET/

I NEED that! Damn thats a savage set up, nice Raf!

Sent from my SM-G965U using Audizine mobile app

[IllusionalTA]

Anyone ever experience fuel cut? In middle of a pull, just cuts completely? I know I’m lean on e40, but never did I imagine it’ll do it on 93.. usually it’s open the bypass and yank timing.. just curious if anyone’s had this before ..

[Morritse]

Anyone ever experience fuel cut? In middle of a pull, just cuts completely? I know I’m lean on e40, but never did I imagine it’ll do it on 93.. usually it’s open the bypass and yank timing.. just curious if anyone’s had this before ..

Yeah if you lose traction at all on an 034 tune 😂

[IllusionalTA]

That’s a good point, fuckin tcs

[whiped]

I always single click traction control off when I am driving aggressively.

034's tractions control isn't nearly as intrusive as Revos or the OEM one but It'll still mess you up if you're trying to slide a corner or something.

[scls4]

"I had this happen to me last night. Roads were wet and when I mashed it from a stop (not launch control) tires spun hard thru 1st, car shifted into 2nd for maybe a second and bam. (I cringe when I hear it on the vid) I immediately got the gearbox malfunction light. It drove fine on the 10 mile ride home, except I noticed some slight shuttering when accelerating and especially when turning and accelerating in a parking lot. The malfunction light went off when I restarted it and the only code was

18446 - Clutch 2 P17D0 00 096 Slippage too High

I just drove it in my driveway and the only thing I notice is a vibration when I reverse with wheel turned....I havent dared to do much else. I got under the rear and the drive shaft feels tight. I'll look under the front end later tonight"


Update on issue......dropped at dealership this am and they confirmed clutch 2 is smoked.....the DSG filter and fluid was almost black with tiny bits of clutch material in the fluid and the low speed shutter and noise in reverse are only in the gears that use clutch 2.
Current mileage 44K (DSG was service 10K miles ago and oil 1st 30K miles was clean when they changed it). The Quote to replace with OEM clutch module is $5500. ($2K parts/$3K labor) They suggested replacing with OEM vs. the aftermarket. I've been stage 2+ for 40K of the 44K miles and the mis shift during the heavy spinning / shift into second gear the other night when the malfunction light came on was fairly violent/cringe worthy.

Some questions I have.......

#1 has anyone replaced DSG clutches yet and how much was it?
#2 has anyone replaced with the SSP aftermarket clutches USP advertises? If so 600lb or 800lb options? (https://www.uspmotorsports.com/SSP-S...h-Package.html)
#3 suggestions on how to get the cost down, especially labor.....
#4 since this requires transmission drop.....is it time to consider alternative option for OEM cats or any other mod?

Thanks

[IllusionalTA]

It was on the highway, maybe hit a road bump or something, at 120ish.. just cut power

I always single click traction control off when I am driving aggressively.

034's tractions control isn't nearly as intrusive as Revos or the OEM one but It'll still mess you up if you're trying to slide a corner or something.

[Johnson]

I would log your HPFP/LPFP PWM value's, as well as your fuel hPa values. When mine was going south, I had a similar issue where my HPFP sensor was faulty, so when the PWM signal got too high, it basically dumped fuel into cyl. The sensor isn't servicable if it is this, so a new HPFP is needed.

What is the parameter for HPFP PWM signal? I'm pretty sure the low side is "fuel pump activation".

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[Morritse]

"I had this happen to me last night. Roads were wet and when I mashed it from a stop (not launch control) tires spun hard thru 1st, car shifted into 2nd for maybe a second and bam. (I cringe when I hear it on the vid) I immediately got the gearbox malfunction light. It drove fine on the 10 mile ride home, except I noticed some slight shuttering when accelerating and especially when turning and accelerating in a parking lot. The malfunction light went off when I restarted it and the only code was

18446 - Clutch 2 P17D0 00 096 Slippage too High

I just drove it in my driveway and the only thing I notice is a vibration when I reverse with wheel turned....I havent dared to do much else. I got under the rear and the drive shaft feels tight. I'll look under the front end later tonight"


Update on issue......dropped at dealership this am and they confirmed clutch 2 is smoked.....the DSG filter and fluid was almost black with tiny bits of clutch material in the fluid and the low speed shutter and noise in reverse are only in the gears that use clutch 2.
Current mileage 44K (DSG was service 10K miles ago and oil 1st 30K miles was clean when they changed it). The Quote to replace with OEM clutch module is $5500. ($2K parts/$3K labor) They suggested replacing with OEM vs. the aftermarket. I've been stage 2+ for 40K of the 44K miles and the mis shift during the heavy spinning / shift into second gear the other night when the malfunction light came on was fairly violent/cringe worthy.

Some questions I have.......

#1 has anyone replaced DSG clutches yet and how much was it?
#2 has anyone replaced with the SSP aftermarket clutches USP advertises? If so 600lb or 800lb options? (https://www.uspmotorsports.com/SSP-S...h-Package.html)
#3 suggestions on how to get the cost down, especially labor.....
#4 since this requires transmission drop.....is it time to consider alternative option for OEM cats or any other mod?

Thanks

You could get a low mileage complete DSG for like $2k man. Fuck that.

[friskuh]

"I had this happen to me last night. Roads were wet and when I mashed it from a stop (not launch control) tires spun hard thru 1st, car shifted into 2nd for maybe a second and bam. (I cringe when I hear it on the vid) I immediately got the gearbox malfunction light. It drove fine on the 10 mile ride home, except I noticed some slight shuttering when accelerating and especially when turning and accelerating in a parking lot. The malfunction light went off when I restarted it and the only code was

18446 - Clutch 2 P17D0 00 096 Slippage too High

I just drove it in my driveway and the only thing I notice is a vibration when I reverse with wheel turned....I havent dared to do much else. I got under the rear and the drive shaft feels tight. I'll look under the front end later tonight"


Update on issue......dropped at dealership this am and they confirmed clutch 2 is smoked.....the DSG filter and fluid was almost black with tiny bits of clutch material in the fluid and the low speed shutter and noise in reverse are only in the gears that use clutch 2.
Current mileage 44K (DSG was service 10K miles ago and oil 1st 30K miles was clean when they changed it). The Quote to replace with OEM clutch module is $5500. ($2K parts/$3K labor) They suggested replacing with OEM vs. the aftermarket. I've been stage 2+ for 40K of the 44K miles and the mis shift during the heavy spinning / shift into second gear the other night when the malfunction light came on was fairly violent/cringe worthy.

Some questions I have.......

#1 has anyone replaced DSG clutches yet and how much was it?
#2 has anyone replaced with the SSP aftermarket clutches USP advertises? If so 600lb or 800lb options? (https://www.uspmotorsports.com/SSP-S...h-Package.html)
#3 suggestions on how to get the cost down, especially labor.....
#4 since this requires transmission drop.....is it time to consider alternative option for OEM cats or any other mod?

Thanks

id say just go aftermarket tbh, less costly and most likely better, then you can report back how well it works for the future. im sorry that happened to you. ive never seen a $2k DL501 used with low miles. usually over 3k+

[Morritse]

id say just go aftermarket tbh, less costly and most likely better, then you can report back how well it works for the future. im sorry that happened to you. ive never seen a $2k DL501 used with low miles. usually over 3k+

Well I guess the low mileage part is subjective. I consider less than 40k to be low.

[bhvrdr]

id say just go aftermarket tbh, less costly and most likely better, then you can report back how well it works for the future. im sorry that happened to you. ive never seen a $2k DL501 used with low miles. usually over 3k+

Car-part.com

I see one with 11k miles on it for $1500 and two in the 16k mile to 28k mile for under 2200.

If its just the clutch though id see if an indie can do it. 3 grsnd in labor should be $1200 in the real world

Mike

[Morritse]

Car-part.com

I see one with 11k miles on it for $1500 and two in the 16k mile to 28k mile for under 2200.

If its just the clutch though id see if an indie can do it. 3 grsnd in labor should be $1200 in the real world

Mike

Yeah I'd do the clutches if you can get labor down significantly.

Although. I'm not sure there's a point in getting upgrades clutches unless you can get a TCU tune that requests more classes ping pressure than OEM clutches can handle.

[bhvrdr]

Is this the part youd need?

0B5141030E

[friskuh]

Well I guess the low mileage part is subjective. I consider less than 40k to be low.

i didn't check car-part.

[PeteRock]

Yeah I'd do the clutches if you can get labor down significantly.

Although. I'm not sure there's a point in getting upgrades clutches unless you can get a TCU tune that requests more classes ping pressure than OEM clutches can handle.

I looked into upgrading to the SSP Clutch Packs and APR was willing to revise their TCU Tune to accommodate clamping force etc. so if APR was willing to do this I would imagine that the rest of the tuners would do it too


Pete

[scls4]

I looked into upgrading to the SSP Clutch Packs and APR was willing to revise their TCU Tune to accommodate clamping force etc. so if APR was willing to do this I would imagine that the rest of the tuners would do it too


Pete

I thought I read SSP achieves higher #'s by increasing # of plates in the basket vs. OEM? Ie, the 600lb kit is 11 plates, the 800lb kit is 13.

Either way.......going to start making some calls. I got the car back and they flushed the gear oil so I can drive it "lightly" in the short term while I go somewhere besides the dealership. 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th are fine.....reverse (slips and noisey), 2nd (slips), 4th (slips) and 6th require normal driving for the time being. PITA.

[PeteRock]

I thought I read SSP achieves higher #'s by increasing # of plates in the basket vs. OEM? Ie, the 600lb kit is 11 plates, the 800lb kit is 13.

Either way.......going to start making some calls. I got the car back and they flushed the gear oil so I can drive it "lightly" in the short term while I go somewhere besides the dealership. 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th are fine.....reverse (slips and noisey), 2nd (slips), 4th (slips) and 6th require normal driving for the time being. PITA.

That may be the case but regardless you can’t get the real benefits of the upgrade without a revised TCU tune....it states this on SSPs site.....

SSP's new discs have been dyno proven to over 800 ft/lbs with NO slippage when properly tuned.


Pete

[Rodizzle]

I always single click traction control off when I am driving aggressively.

.

Same

Either way.......going to start making some calls.

Jimmysb7s4 seem like he did his own work at his shop (6hour total) . I would think you could find a good Indy that will charge a decent price . I thought I had clutch slippage for the longest but it was all tune related

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...lutch-slipping


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[friskuh]

i honestly love how simple these cars are to work on for the most part compared to BMW/Mercedes.

[Loe]

I would try to "reset" the clutch with VCDS before purchasing a new clutch pack if you haven't already.

[Acejam]

I would try to "reset" the clutch with VCDS before purchasing a new clutch pack if you haven't already.

+1. I just ran through it myself to try it out this past weekend: http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index...rbox_(DSG/0B5)


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