**OFFICIAL** Life Beyond Stage II: the higher stage development thread

[Loe]

Hi all,

Lets start a new thread as the previous one was getting pretty cluttered. This post will simply be about sharing set-ups, experiences both good and bad with the set-ups, provide great information for those who want to venture into this new arena of stock S/C power, and a questions/answers type thread. Dyno sharing, photo's, logs, and 1/4 mile testing is encouraged, and 1/4 mile times will be updated on the 1/4 mile thread here as well - - - > **NEW**1/4 mile spreadsheet submit your time here

You may see the term "pulley ratio" or "dual-pulley," and often refers to a larger crank pulley than OEM, a smaller S/C pulley than OEM, or a combination of the two to derive to a higher pulley ratio. If the pulley ratio is larger than "3.xxx" , it can be considered a stage 3 as the amount of boost/power generated at this point is like going from stage 1 (software only) to stage 2 (software/pulley) again. Essentially the higher you can get with your engine relaying positive feedback via logs of it's health, the better potential there is for performance. Higher pulley ratio's will spin the S/C faster at all RPM level's. Aside from the obvious benefits at wide-open throttle, there is more power under the curve with many reporting excellent low-end to mid-range TQ at partial-throttle settings. To get a pulley ratio, you divide the crank pulley size by the s/c pulley size; to get the maximum RPM the s/c will spin, you take that number and multiply it by your shift-points, which may vary depending on either a B8 or B8.5, and specific TCU tuning.

A recommendation: the faster you spin the S/C, the more heat you will be generating. You should already be considering upgrading the s/c loop cooling system if you have not already, and possibly even running meth to aid in cooling the compressed intake charge.

On pulley ratio's that hover near 3.000, I would recommend it, but you could get by without one as long as you don't push it to the extreme like I did (attend every track event and do WOT every 15-20 minutes without proper cool downs) or you run the risk of overheating your s/c coolant loop and your s/c intercooler spring a leak.

On pulley ratios above 3.200, I would venture to say it's a requirement to upgrade the cooling. My IAT's logs in mid 90's show a big increase from start to finish with my AWE ColdFront on a 50/50 water/coolant ratio, I can't imagine this would perform consistently on stock cooling. You may be able to get away with it if you live in the northern parts of the country though, but for the sake of consistency, I would purchase one (intercooler upgrade at the very least).

Need some cooling options?

Killer-chiller
Let's talk Water/Meth
DIY stacked heat-exchanger and reservoir upgrade
supercharger cooling techniques and options

Lets take for example an AWE 57.55mm / KI 194mm combination that gives a pulley ratio of 3.371:

at a 6,400rpm upshift, the s/c will be spinning at 21,574rpm
at a 6,600rpm upshift, the s/c will be spinning at 22,248rpm
at a 6,800rpm upshift, the s/c will be spinning at 22,923rpm
at a 7,000rpm upshift, the s/c will be spinning at 23,587rpm
at a 7,200rpm upshift, the s/c will be spinning at 24,271rpm

As of right now, the census is that the blower will be out of its efficiency range above 24,000rpm, however this may be proven wrong once better cooling options become available. If the 24,000rpm rule is to be followed, then the pulley may be too aggressive if your shift points are set at 7,200rpm. If your shift points are 7,000rpm, then this pulley ratio would be ideal for maximum performance given environmental conditions, octane, and various other factors. Fueling may be an issue as you appoach the "red-zone" in the picture below so you should consider an upgraded HPFP, LPFP, and in-line booster, or a combination of either, particularly if you plan on running ethanol gas (full E85 or a blend), or run methanol injection to aid in fuel demands.

Here is where you can find your pulley sizes (thank you AZ member whiped) ---> PULLEY SIZES

Blackstone analysis of a non-damped pulley (thank you Mat@1975) ---> Dampened-Undampened-Crank-Pullley-comparison-Wear?

Need tips/tricks for installing a pulley? (thank you bhvrdr) ---> DIY-The-guide-to-30-minute-crank-pulley-installation-go-stage-2-or-2-in-a-jiffy





The above picture shows the area where you may need to grind, or simply use a 6 rib belt instead of the standard 7 rib belt to avoid grinding.

here is a live example of what you will need to grind ---> PIC OF AREA TO GRIND

If you need to grind, you can simply file it down using a tool similar to this:



Stanley makes a product that will help you with it - - -> Stanley Grinder Link

I'll let others chime in for their results and set-ups. Log sharing is appreciated so others can make an informative choice, however I do understand that many tuners do not light it when logs are publicly shared, so keep that in mind as well because we want tuners on our side in order to take the risk and venture into this arena.

Here are some more installation tips/tricks:
CLICK ME Install tips/tricks
CLICK ME Install tips/tricks

NEED A BELT SIZE?
Supercharger Belt Size and Part Number Thread

Sparkplugs / gap information:
NGK replacements PFR8S8EG (gap .022" - .028")
NGK "one-step colder" NKR9IEX (gap .022" - .028")

You will have to play around with your gap to find what feels best and looks the best in logs. Keep in mind that you want to run the highest gap you can get away with for maximum spark efficiency.

OEM replacement crank bolts are: OEM bolts are M8x25 with a 1.25 pitch but 10.0 tensile

** this first post will continually be updated as we receive new information. Keep in mind that this thread was started near the beginning of "beyond stage 2" development where there are some unknowns. **

[PinoyS4]

Good stuff Loe

[1975audi]

Sub'd

[tmoe]

great idea! even for non-s4 drivers that want to mod their audi 3.0 beyond standard ecu tune!

[cjw]

I posted in the other thread, but I'd be curious as to IATs with stock cooling.

[Low Flyer]

Loe, awesome platform push....should this be made a sticky?

[RWD2quattro]

I'm leaning towards the 189mm Fluidampr but have to wait on further 034 development

[Loe]

MattyS4 just texted me earlier from a dragstrip event today.

temps were in the mid 80's (85-87) at Toronto Motorsports Parkway with density altitudes hovering near 3000FT. He needs to land his 60ft's better, but simply couldn't today due to lack of traction from his tires and drag surface. He trapped 125.76mph in mid 80's weather! he was running 94 octane fuel + methanol injection, which allowed him to run APR's race map stacked with the Chipwerke.

Great job Matt, you'll surpass my in no time in E.T., and you already surpassed me with that trap (3.32mph, in reality more than that as I ran in lower temps/density altitudes), as well as the gutted and drag-slicked stage III car that trapped in the lower 124mph in negative density altitudes.

Lets keep the development going! I can't wait until I dive into this more

[Loe]

I posted in the other thread, but I'd be curious as to IATs with stock cooling.

In FL spring weather (upper 70's low 80's) temps exceeded 80C by the end of the 1/4mile. IAT's hover near 48-53C around town, and at idle would be near 60C.

[cspcrx]

Great work guy! cant wait to see who is the first into the 10s in a fully stocked car, like it would be on the street.

[colby7]

Would a CW stack with a full E85 tune?

[S4ilicious]

Great job Loe, Matt and others working to expand the potential on this S4 Platform, without you guys we wouldn't be where we are now Congrats and best of luck to success to come. Il be working with 034 Motorsport to venture in this dual pulley adventure as well hopefully soon. That trap of 125 in not ideal conditions is Bonkers! 10's are just around the corner (:

[Loe]

Would a CW stack with a full E85 tune?

Hi Colby, the only tuner thus far to write a full E85 tune and dual pulley's is EPL, who can write custom files without the need to stack a CW.

[HeymyAudi]

subbed ....

[Loe]

Great job Loe, Matt and others working to expand the potential on this S4 Platform, without you guys we wouldn't be where we are now Congrats and best of luck to success to come. Il be working with 034 Motorsport to venture in this dual pulley adventure as well hopefully soon. That trap of 125 in not ideal conditions is Bonkers! 10's are just around the corner (:

Keep us updated on the 034Motorsports development.

As a comparison in similar density altitude with my AWE 57.55 / JHM 179mm combination, the best I ran was [email protected]. Matt's larger 194mm crank makes that big of a difference in boost/HP! A few more guys from the "stacked tune" crowd will be running their times soon (or at least this fall) with these larger cranks, can't wait to see their results! I predict there will be at least be 5 guys here running 10.x this season

[BlownOne]

Nice thread Loe!
Matt txt me also with his mph and et but I didn't check da...at +3k this is even more amazing that juts considering it was 90*F at the track!! Seems like each day that goes by, the mph keeps going up lol. I think 130 in perfect conditions will be possible which would land mid 10's with a good 60'😳 This is awesome that Matt stepped up and made some pulley sizes that weren't an option, plus ran his own r&d on them all. At this point it's just a waiting game for the cool weather to come upon us, then it's time to swing for the fences and put all of our names at the very top of the list!





(Mine at the very top lol)

[jl87]

Is Matt a B8 or B8.5? Curious since no program switching for APR yet and it makes things more tricky :( Congrats on the great trap speed though in less than ideal conditions.

[cjw]

In FL spring weather (upper 70's low 80's) temps exceeded 80C by the end of the 1/4mile. IAT's hover near 48-53C around town, and at idle would be near 60C.

Thank you. How does that compare with stock and stage 2 temps?

[Loe]

Nice thread Loe!
Matt txt me also with his mph and et but I didn't check da...at +3k this is even more amazing that juts considering it was 90*F at the track!! Seems like each day that goes by, the mph keeps going up lol. I think 130 in perfect conditions will be possible which would land mid 10's with a good 60'😳 This is awesome that Matt stepped up and made some pulley sizes that weren't an option, plus ran his own r&d on them all. At this point it's just a waiting game for the cool weather to come upon us, then it's time to swing for the fences and put all of our names at the very top of the list!





(Mine at the very top lol)

Yes indeed. We must not forget those with dedicated tunes as well ! exciting indeed!

[A418t81]

Hmm, big improvement in performance since the last time I swang through these forums. Always wondered why E85 blending wasn't a thing over here. The newfound power is impressive. Always been an Audi guy but found the late BMWs more interesting. Seems like it may be time to swap back :D

[DKo5]

I've got the JHM 179mm and CTS s/c pulley and am running EPL dual pulley tune on CA 91 octane. Getting an AMS cooling kit installed tomorrow. I never go to the track (none near me), but the butt dyno hasn't been overly impressed coming from EPL stage 1. I'm sure my supercharger is too hot causing me to pull timing and bleed tons of boost, and the junk 91 octane we get in CA isn't helping matters at all.

Found a local gas station that sells all sorts of Sunoco race gas in 5gal pails, including E85R. Picked some up and put a couple gallons in - going to see what kind of 0-60s I can pull tonight once temps drop. No room to do anything else around here. Wish I had a vbox or something, but I'll just be using Torque with a high speed OBDII adapter.

To those who are really pushing their cars, keep it up! Helps those like me live the racecar life vicariously :)

[BlownOne]

I've got the JHM 179mm and CTS s/c pulley and am running EPL dual pulley tune on CA 91 octane. Getting an AMS cooling kit installed tomorrow. I never go to the track (none near me), but the butt dyno hasn't been overly impressed coming from EPL stage 1. I'm sure my supercharger is too hot causing me to pull timing and bleed tons of boost, and the junk 91 octane we get in CA isn't helping matters at all.

Found a local gas station that sells all sorts of Sunoco race gas in 5gal pails, including E85R. Picked some up and put a couple gallons in - going to see what kind of 0-60s I can pull tonight once temps drop. No room to do anything else around here. Wish I had a vbox or something, but I'll just be using Torque with a high speed OBDII adapter.

To those who are really pushing their cars, keep it up! Helps those like me live the racecar life vicariously :)

Yea if you're on Cali 91 you should add 3-4 gallons of e85 per tank of fuel...there should be plenty of stations in so cal that sell E at the pump.

[DKo5]

Yea if you're on Cali 91 you should add 3-4 gallons of e85 per tank of fuel...there should be plenty of stations in so cal that sell E at the pump.

You'd think so, but I'm smack dab in the middle between two stations - each ~40 miles away. Last time I drove past either was probably 6 months ago. Its tough living for sure, but I'll take my so cal beach weather over E85 or 93 any day ;)

[ModItNow]

Thanks Loe and all that have been putting your efforts at advancing this platform! I've been reading the dual pulley thread and have gathered a bunch of info. I thought stage 2 was going to be it so this is super exciting. I'll be rocking a larger crank pulley once I get my coldfront on and my next service visit done. Thanks and cheers!

Sent from my SM-G925V using Audizine mobile app

[xuandatou]

Great Job !

[Loe]

Is Matt a B8 or B8.5? Curious since no program switching for APR yet and it makes things more tricky :( Congrats on the great trap speed though in less than ideal conditions.

He's a B8.

OnEaNgRyBuNnY is showing very promising results with an APR pump file stacked with a CW on his B8.5; I think he'll be presenting greater times this year too as he dives more and more into running APR's pump file and running 93 pump or a mixed e85/93. Hopefully he dives into larger cranks as well. He's currently running the Chipwerke Pro set to 4-1, which seems to work very well with the APR stage II software.

Thank you. How does that compare with stock and stage 2 temps?

That is a very very good question. I can't answer that unfortunately as I didn't start officially with VCDS logging until I went dual-pulley. I can tell you that after seeing the IAT logs on dual pulley pre/post cooling upgrade that it's well worth it for the consistency and health, particularly the health of the s/c intercoolers themselves (the one's that are right next to the s/c rotors that actually cool the compressed air before they head into the intake tract).

[eurotic]

To all the guys here that are pushing this platform, I just want to say a huge thank-you to all of you. I will never be one of the guys that will push the bleeding edge simply because I can't bankroll a project that I might buy different versions of a product to test or repair a bunch of stuff that I might break. I suppose I am a follower in that regard so thank-you for blazing the trail.

As this thread progresses I hope to discover if there is any possibility for me to do something more than just a stage 2 tune and pulley swap (still stock). I only have access to 91 E0 or 94 E10 and live in a climate that ranges from -35 Celsius to +35 Celsius in a typical year and sometimes beyond both ends of that spectrum.

I think I want to just do the crank pulley swap and based on the spreadsheet and some calcs I did I think a Fluidampr 206mm would be a good fit. But besides running upgraded cooling and a "dual pulley" tune, I don't have a sense of if this plan really would net me many gains compared to a standard Stage 2 tune. For me the "area under the curve" in the low to mid range is more important than high-rpm power but I want to make sure that if I hit the rev limiter (and maybe sit on the rev limiter for a few seconds) I want to be safe. Am I likely to just bleed all the extra boost that a high-ratio pulley will give me?


Shawn

[Quidproquo]

Quick question for you guys who have changed both the SC and crank pulleys as opposed to just swapping a large (206mm) crank pulley.
Is there an installation cost advantage to just swapping the crank pulley? Does the front end of the S4 need to be pulled forward to change the crank pulley as it does for the SC pulley?

[colby7]

The crank pulley change is more involved than the sc pulley change.

[mrmomo313]

To all the guys here that are pushing this platform, I just want to say a huge thank-you to all of you. I will never be one of the guys that will push the bleeding edge simply because I can't bankroll a project that I might buy different versions of a product to test or repair a bunch of stuff that I might break. I suppose I am a follower in that regard so thank-you for blazing the trail.

As this thread progresses I hope to discover if there is any possibility for me to do something more than just a stage 2 tune and pulley swap (still stock). I only have access to 91 E0 or 94 E10 and live in a climate that ranges from -35 Celsius to +35 Celsius in a typical year and sometimes beyond both ends of that spectrum.

I think I want to just do the crank pulley swap and based on the spreadsheet and some calcs I did I think a Fluidampr 206mm would be a good fit. But besides running upgraded cooling and a "dual pulley" tune, I don't have a sense of if this plan really would net me many gains compared to a standard Stage 2 tune. For me the "area under the curve" in the low to mid range is more important than high-rpm power but I want to make sure that if I hit the rev limiter (and maybe sit on the rev limiter for a few seconds) I want to be safe. Am I likely to just bleed all the extra boost that a high-ratio pulley will give me?


Shawn

You'll see a significant performance increase over a stage 2 car if you stack your stage 2 tune with a Chipwerke piggy to control boost bypass.

With a 206mm crank though you'll be at 3.257 ratio which assuming you will have a TCU tune will keep you right under the 24k max reported efficiency for the blower at redline. Shouldn't be an issue though keep in mind this is still new territory so join in at your own risk.

Quick question for you guys who have changed both the SC and crank pulleys as opposed to just swapping a large (206mm) crank pulley.
Is there an installation cost advantage to just swapping the crank pulley? Does the front end of the S4 need to be pulled forward to change the crank pulley as it does for the SC pulley?

Most of us that went dual pulley were already stage 2 so we added the bigger crank in addition to our blower pulley. You'll save time and money by swapping the crank pulley alone. It's a 2-3 hour job for the crank swap.

[eurotic]

You'll see a significant performance increase over a stage 2 car if you stack your stage 2 tune with a Chipwerke piggy to control boost bypass.

With a 206mm crank though you'll be at 3.257 ratio which assuming you will have a TCU tune will keep you right under the 24k max reported efficiency for the blower at redline. Shouldn't be an issue though keep in mind this is still new territory so join in at your own risk.

Actually I am 6MT so I have been using 7200 as my redline in all calcs. That said I have never really put it to the test to see if the car really hits the limiter at 7200. Reversing the calcs, to stay below 24000 rpm on the blower with that 206mm pulley, the rpm of the engine have to stay below 7368.

I am hoping that the tunes will evolve over the next year that stacking wouldn't be required.

[chefboyjde]

Have any of you guys running dual pulleys had any issues with excessive vibration? I am currently running a Revo supercharger pulley, and my performance is extremely good, but I must say, the car feels extremely unhappy above 5500rpm. I don't know exactly how to describe it beyond a very unpleasant vibration through the firewall. Part of me thinks its just the nature of a V6 vs a straight 6 which is inherently balanced, but it doesn't feel like the vibration from a $60k car. It just isn't happy...

Anyway, I am interested in upgrading to a dual pulley setup, but I am worried it will make this vibration even worse. Any of your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[Loe]

No extra vibration issues that I've been aware of. Perhaps your engine mount is broken? If you are getting excessive vibration, a dampened crank may be your best bet.

[JD S4]

For someone much smarter than I ---- what's the"right" setup for those of us at elevation? My house is at 6,000 feet but I routinely spend time between 10,000 and 14,000 feet of elevation.. I'm not sure what the "right" combination of software vs. hardware best combats high elevations. I'm getting more comfortable with the DA concept - but trying to get a feel for what combination would best offset being at crazy altitude...

I was at 14,200 feet yesterday and she was pretty doggy... I'm in the planning stages for a build and was thinking stacked CW / Stage 2 but as this thread + the main dual pulley thread takes off, I'm intrigued. Appreciate the thoughts.

[whiped]

I've updated the chart. Here is a new screenshot for you Loe.

[cspcrx]

I like that, very helpful. Thanks.

[AudBoost]

Great charts whiped. Just a small correction according to s4matty any crank pulley over 180mm will require grinding to allow for belt clearance.

Post #32: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...orts-Lil-Bit-h

[whiped]

Great charts whiped. Just a small correction according to s4matty any crank pulley over 180mm will require grinding to allow for belt clearance.

Post #32: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...orts-Lil-Bit-h

Interesting, he said 186 in his selling thread a few minutes ago.

Can anyone with the GMG 180mm confirm it needs some grinding?

[shoe3k]

I just want to give you guys some clarification on why damping is important for objects that spin. The majority think that the worst issue is NVH that results in a crappy ride, which really isn't the case. The major concern is the harmonics produced by the spinning object. At certain frequencies a spinning object could literally destroy itself due to fatigue, which will depend on the material that was used such as titanium, aluminum, steel, etc. Let's not forget that this object is attached to the motor and that itself is an issue that can't be ignored.

It is pretty dangerous not having any type of damping on the pulley, especially when the original part from the factory does have it. Generally, the stock pulley will show signs of failure because it is doing its job and wearing out from those vibrations that would cause havoc to the motor, which is why it should be inspected periodically. Did Audi do the best job addressing this concern? Nope. They addressed the issue but went with the cheapest solution that results in a part that deteriotes too fast.

[AudBoost]

I just want to give you guys some clarification on why damping is important for objects that spin. The majority think that the worst issue is NVH that results in a crappy ride, which really isn't the case. The major concern is the harmonics produced by the spinning object. At certain frequencies a spinning object could literally destroy itself due to fatigue, which will depend on the material that was used such as titanium, aluminum, steel, etc. Let's not forget that this object is attached to the motor and that itself is an issue that can't be ignored.

It is pretty dangerous not having any type of damping on the pulley, especially when the original part from the factory does have it. Generally, the stock pulley will show signs of failure because it is doing its job and wearing out from those vibrations that would cause havoc to the motor, which is why it should be inspected periodically. Did Audi do the best job addressing this concern? Nope. They addressed the issue but went with the cheapest solution that results in a part that deteriotes too fast.

I debated whether or not to go with a damped pulley or a solid pulley and I read the below thread a more than a few times. The debate starts on page 2 post #77.
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...-failure/page2

Torquewrench brings up a lot of valid arguments for a dampened pulley and then towards the end S4Leistung brings valid arguments against it. I guess we won't know the extent of either pulley until people get more miles on them. I do have a friend that had the JHM solid pulley on his 2012 for over 20k and the car ran great. He sold his 2012 for a 2014 and moved the JHM crank pulley and 10K+ miles later and he has yet to have an issue.