A quart of oil lost in 90 miles. Advise needed, FAST

[trj]

So, recently I was having an oil consumption issue. About a quart every 600-800k.
Changed the PCV and breather hose to the the new style ones(one with the valve on the breather tube). The ones that is meant for 2007+ cars. Topped off the oil to full and drained oil from intercooler pipes. Yesterday

Today I drove 90 miles. While driving, when I stepped on gas to merge in to the freeway, I noticed dark smoke out of the exhaust. Then, I noticed dark smoke as I step on the gas at around 60mph, no smoke below 50 or above 70. The smoke appeared dark on my rear view mirror through my tinted rear windows, so I don’t know if it as blue or black.
As I am driving home, just around a mile from home, low oil light comes on. So, effectively I burnt 1 full quart in 90 miles. I topped it off to full yesterday.

This is immediately after installing the new PCV and breather tube. WTF.
No CEL, or anything that indicates there is an issue. Gas mileage is same, so I don’t think its the fuel being dumped.

What would be a possible cause? Of this sudden oil loss.
- valve cover? May be the new PCV just completely broke the valve cover that was in its last legs? Does it even make any sense?
- turbo?

I might give it a go with a new valve cover but at this point I am feeling like its not worth it.
I was thinking to keep the car for another year and sell it, but looks like I am going to trade it in this week.

Shall I just throw in towel and trade it in? I have been through this road before with my other car and it was a nightmare.

[aluthman]

If it isn't leaking or pooling in the IC piping, you may have just broken a ring land.

[trj]

If it isn't leaking or pooling in the IC piping, you may have just broken a ring land.

There is small leak behind the engine, but that was there before I did the PCV and breather tube. And no oil pools in the parking spot.
I haven't checked the intercooler pipes today, but I cleared up about half a quart yesterday from the intercooler tubes.

Wouldn't broken ring mean, rough idle or CEL. Man this has been a nightmare.

[adam044]

Well buring a quart every 600-800k is actually amazing. I suggest changing your oil well before that but I guess whatever works.

In all seriousness, it sounds like there has to be a leak somewhere because that's just insane. That's basically undrivable burning that mush oil that fast.

[OrangeA4]

what is your mileage?
have you done your timing belt?
have you had any misfires?

I was at about 90k and had the following:
Pooling oil nearly filling #4 cyl coil pack tube. (head gasket seal was bad)
leak at rear of engine at the coolant flange.
leak at oil cooler.

All these leaks were at different times. None of them were very bad, except for the head gasket.
But those are places to look if you have similar mileage to mine.

good luck

[trj]

Well buring a quart every 600-800k is actually amazing. I suggest changing your oil well before that but I guess whatever works.

In all seriousness, it sounds like there has to be a leak somewhere because that's just insane. That's basically undrivable burning that mush oil that fast.

600-800k was a typo.
There is no sign of leakage except for the rear of the engine and its not bad enough to have 1 quart out in 90 miles. Not even a single drop on the parking spot.

what is your mileage?
have you done your timing belt?
have you had any misfires?

I was at about 90k and had the following:
Pooling oil nearly filling #4 cyl coil pack tube. (head gasket seal was bad)
leak at rear of engine at the coolant flange.
leak at oil cooler.

All these leaks were at different times. None of them were very bad, except for the head gasket.
But those are places to look if you have similar mileage to mine.

good luck

97k miles.
Timing belt done at 85k.
No misfires.

I am kind of OCD about maintenance, so I try to keep up on top of it.
This sudden development since I changed the PCV yesterday has me completely stumped. I might just put the old PCV and breather tube back if it means I can have my 600-800 miles add-a-quart. Drive it like that for a year and sell it.

Its the smoke coming out of exhaust around 60 mph that has me worried. No hesitation/misfire/fuel cut issues.

Does anyone here think it could be valve cover or something else? Because thats the extent I am prepared to work on this car. I can't do the turbo or piston rings. No garage and no time as well.

[hemantpd1]

Valve cover or valve cover gasket are possible which can create some smoke when under pressure. I would suggest doing following:
1. Compression test. At least it will eliminate piston ring or valve seal problem.
2. Check spark plug well for oil. If oil is present then your valve cover gasket is leaking.
3. Check valve cover for any crack. which can dump oil into turbo when pressurized.

Go through this thread and you will find plenty of information on how to check for any problem with PCv or valve cover.
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...stem-explained

[LINDW4LL]

You sound certain that this started when you installed the new PCV valve. Not sure why that's the case unless the new one arrived defective, but I'd put the old back on.

[Sanjman]

Did you replace the breather hose to the 07+ version with the PCV valve "upgrade"? There is a

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[trj]

You sound certain that this started when you installed the new PCV valve. Not sure why that's the case unless the new one arrived defective, but I'd put the old back on.

The Rapid consumption with smoke from exhaust started after I replaced the PCV on Saturday. I was loosing almost a quart in 600-800 miles. This started about 4 months ago. Before that no consumption issues at all.

Did you replace the breather hose to the 07+ version with the PCV valve "upgrade"? There is a

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Yes, new style PCV and breather tube were installed. Honestly, I didnt see any issues with the old ones. I still have them so I might put them back on this weekend.

Valve cover or valve cover gasket are possible which can create some smoke when under pressure. I would suggest doing following:
1. Compression test. At least it will eliminate piston ring or valve seal problem.
2. Check spark plug well for oil. If oil is present then your valve cover gasket is leaking.
3. Check valve cover for any crack. which can dump oil into turbo when pressurized.

Go through this thread and you will find plenty of information on how to check for any problem with PCv or valve cover.
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...stem-explained

Oh went through that thread many times.Lol.
Thats why I am suspecting Valve cover.
Wouldnt bad piston rings give a CEL/code? Is there a way to test it with Vag-com. I have been very busy with work lately and this being a daily driver, I really dont have time to invest more time in it on the weekdays. Hence, trying to avoid taking it to the mechanic over the weekend. I mean, I can replace the valve cover in 30 minutes may be. Haha. And even if mechanic determines its the rings, valves, I am not going to change/replace them. Just dont have time and place to pull eveything out.

I can definitely pull the spark plugs later in the evening and see if there is oil.
Now, the question is, is it safe to assume valve cover the most likely culprit, if there is oil in the spark plugs?

[onedumslack]

I'm with LINDW4LL. If the pcv and breather are what's changed. Put the old back on and see.

[aluthman]

Wouldnt bad piston rings give a CEL/code? Is there a way to test it with Vag-com.

Not necessarily and nope. Do a compression test and/or leakdown test.

[hemantpd1]

Oh went through that thread many times.Lol.
Thats why I am suspecting Valve cover.
Wouldnt bad piston rings give a CEL/code? Is there a way to test it with Vag-com. I have been very busy with work lately and this being a daily driver, I really dont have time to invest more time in it on the weekdays. Hence, trying to avoid taking it to the mechanic over the weekend. I mean, I can replace the valve cover in 30 minutes may be. Haha. And even if mechanic determines its the rings, valves, I am not going to change/replace them. Just dont have time and place to pull eveything out.

I can definitely pull the spark plugs later in the evening and see if there is oil.
Now, the question is, is it safe to assume valve cover the most likely culprit, if there is oil in the spark plugs?

In my case I had smoke during hard accelaration. I found oil in spark plug well and a hairline fracture in the VC itself. I changed the gasket only and problem has been drastically reduced. It smokes sometimes but very less. Hopefully after chaning VC problem would be gone.

[torrque]

Mine was also using a quart per 1000k , changed valve cover, no oil usage at all ! But do a compression test first, it could be bad rings/valves. I had 170 psi flast on all 4, as a reference.

[Theiceman]

its just me but I would go back and put the old parts back in just to see what happens.

[aluthman]

Mine was also using a quart per 1000k , changed valve cover, no oil usage at all ! But do a compression test first, it could be bad rings/valves. I had 120 psi flast on all 4, as a reference.

That's incredibly low for a stock engine. Was it at operating temp when you did the test?

[torrque]

That's incredibly low for a stock engine. Was it at operating temp when you did the test?

Sorry about that, I checked my notes. It was 170, not 120... I got fixated on 120 as I had just over 120 on my M5.

[aluthman]

That makes more sense

[trj]

Ok, update. But not a nice one.
Driving to work today, oil light on. So, I am burnt another quart in may be 40 miles. While I was driving to autozone to get a sparkplug socket(I misplaced mine). Big cloud of smoke, then steady smoke if I even press on gas a little bit. Everything is pointing towards the rings.
Its 100 degrees outside. So, my plan to remove the plugs and check the valve cover is going to be ruined.

At this point, should I throw the towel and trade it in or sell it with full disclosure? Does it even make sense to get compression test done at this point?

The thing is, I dont have time nor space to rebuild the engine. And its my daily driver. I am already searching for another car.
Will have to rent a car or take a cab to work till I get one. WTF.

[aluthman]

Buy a $20 turbo rebuild kit and give it a hail mary attempt. It may end up just being the turbo. You will probably be able to tell by removing the cat and looking at the turbine wheel.

[Brillo]

I don't see how it could be your rings at the rate your are burning oil. Even if the oil scraper ring is bad or broken on one cylinder the upper rings would scrape some of the oil on the cylinder wall, just not as effectively as the oil ring, even if the broken ring scored up the cylinder wall. Don't see how you could burn that much oil. Simple thing to check though. If you have a broken ring checking all four plugs would identify the cylinder because its plug would be noticeably different than the other three.
Somehow massive amounts of oil are probably entering your engine through the induction system. Probably a blown turbo as aluthman mentioned or your oil separators (2) and or PCV valve and check valve are not functioning properly, and/or the internal passages of your valve cover are F'd up.
I've often wondered in these situations if you open the turbo to air by purposely venting the turbo to air (by removing one of the pipes going into the IC for example) so that you would have absolutely no boost pressure, effectively turning the engine into a normally aspirated engine, whether it would stop burning oil. I admit that I don't know enough about this engine and its systems to know if it would even run under these circumstances. Obviously, it would have no performance to speak of but if it stopped smoking you would identify the turbo as the culprit. If it still smoked (burned oil) you would look elsewhere for the problem. Any others have any thoughts on this??

[LINDW4LL]

Everything is pointing towards the rings.

I don't think the rings can be pointed at for the most recent spike in oil consumption. That's not something that suddenly happens one day.

Start by swapping the PCV back. It would be quite the coincidence if, for example, your turbo blew on the same day as your PCV swap. Possible though I suppose.


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[trj]

Thanks for the vote of confidence guys.
I am going to put the old PCV back and check the spark plugs today. I am hoping its Valve cover though. Any chance I can know just by looking at the plugs?

If it is turbo, how bad is a DIY. Keeping in mind, I am going to be doing it in a parking lot of my apartment. I have changed a turbo on a friend's subaru. So, I know its labor intensive. I would like to get it done in a day.

Like I said, I am probably going to sell the car, but cant really sell it in this condition.

[Low and Behold]

If you swap the turbo, heres a helpful link on how to remove it (install in reverse)

http://www.stasisengineering.com/sit...ongitudial.pdf

I used it to swap my turbo and it helped immensely. You can get it done in one day. Just make sure you have ALL the tools you need before you start.

[ajdre]

Yes-its sucking oil into the pcv system and is probably dropping the oil into your intercoolers. Replace the cover (bernardiaudiparts.com ~$275 delivered including the gasket and new bolts) and you'll also need to drain and clean the oil out of the intercoolers. Happened to mine a month after I bought it. Freaked out and finally figured it out when I punched the gas and a cloud of white smoke came out of the exhaust. Thought I was screwed but was relieved that I now have no oil loss for over a year. Was drinking a quart for every 600 miles. Poor design on the system....not a fan of plastic engine parts that disintegrate over the years. Keep us posted on the outcome.

[Theiceman]

dont forget to put the original breather tube back also as you want to eliminate as many variables as possible. get a drain pan under your intercooler pipes also when draining. im surprised you have not had hydraulic lock yet.

[trj]

Update:
I put the old PCV and breather tube back. Still the same issue. Smoke smoke smoke.
Checked the plugs. One plug looks fouled with oil.
Tried to remove the valve cover to check for cracks, but the damn thing is stuck as if its welded to the block. How do even remove it? I am afraid I will break it if I try to pry it up with screw driver or pry bar.
Also I noticed oil when I removed a couple of bolts from the valve cover. Is it normal? I wasn't able to pull many of the valve cover bolts out even after I unscrewed them completely. Didnt want to force it with pliers.

Drove it around the block. Now, I feel its the tubro that went bad, because if I feather the gas, it will run nicely, but if I press the gas a little more and get into boost, a big cloud of smoke.
All this and no CEL, WTF.
Attaching the pictures of the plugs and oil in the valve cover bolts. These are towards the turbo side.

[RakkCity]

I've often wondered in these situations if you open the turbo to air by purposely venting the turbo to air (by removing one of the pipes going into the IC for example) so that you would have absolutely no boost pressure, effectively turning the engine into a normally aspirated engine, whether it would stop burning oil. I admit that I don't know enough about this engine and its systems to know if it would even run under these circumstances.

Having just installed a front mount intercooler and having one of the pipes pop off under boost, I can say with absolutely certainty the motor does not run under these conditions. It will idle if you're lucky, but as soon as any load is applied to the motor it turns into a 5hp Briggs and Stratton and struggles to even stay running. Had to rev the crap out of it and feather the clutch to get momentum and coast home, luckily I was only two blocks into my test drive.

Disconnecting a charge pipe will let unmetered air enter the motor, and flow past the MAF will stop, throwing the computer into wtf mode. Pulling the MAF connector might make it run, since it'll go off canned maps, but it won't be happy at all.

[RakkCity]

Update:
I put the old PCV and breather tube back. Still the same issue. Smoke smoke smoke.
Checked the plugs. One plug looks fouled with oil.
Tried to remove the valve cover to check for cracks, but the damn thing is stuck as if its welded to the block. How do even remove it? I am afraid I will break it if I try to pry it up with screw driver or pry bar.
Also I noticed oil when I removed a couple of bolts from the valve cover. Is it normal? I wasn't able to pull many of the valve cover bolts out even after I unscrewed them completely. Didnt want to force it with pliers.

Drove it around the block. Now, I feel its the tubro that went bad, because if I feather the gas, it will run nicely, but if I press the gas a little more and get into boost, a big cloud of smoke.
All this and no CEL, WTF.
Attaching the pictures of the plugs and oil in the valve cover bolts. These are towards the turbo side.

Bolts don't need to come out of the VC, just make sure they're all unthreaded and start prying gently at each corner with a screwdriver/prybar. The gasket sticks it to the head, so you need to break that seal without cracking the cover. Eventually it will pop loose a but and you can work it around the whole perimeter.

[b7_Andy]

@trj We talked before and if I remember you live pretty close to me. You're welcome to pull the car into my garage one weekend and I can try to help you work on it. Or if you'd like I can come over and take a look at the car one day and see if we can diagnose the problem. Seems like it has to be valve cover, PCV, or turbo


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[Charles.waite]

Bolts don't need to come out of the VC, just make sure they're all unthreaded and start prying gently at each corner with a screwdriver/prybar. The gasket sticks it to the head, so you need to break that seal without cracking the cover. Eventually it will pop loose a but and you can work it around the whole perimeter.

Don't use a prybar, just give it a few whacks with a deadblow hammer. Should knock it loose without worry about cracking or damaging the valve cover.

[trj]

Bolts don't need to come out of the VC, just make sure they're all unthreaded and start prying gently at each corner with a screwdriver/prybar. The gasket sticks it to the head, so you need to break that seal without cracking the cover. Eventually it will pop loose a but and you can work it around the whole perimeter.

Will try again soon. I just put it back because I didnt want to loose any bolts.
And that little hose next to the breather tube, its on there. I mean may fused internally. haha

@trj We talked before and if I remember you live pretty close to me. You're welcome to pull the car into my garage one weekend and I can try to help you work on it. Or if you'd like I can come over and take a look at the car one day and see if we can diagnose the problem. Seems like it has to be valve cover, PCV, or turbo


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Thanks Andy, I might take you up on that. I can drive like a grandma without ever getting into the boost with my hazards on. Currently I am trying to get another car so I can slowly work on this car. At least I have ruled out PCV by installing the old one back.

Don't use a prybar, just give it a few whacks with a deadblow hammer. Should knock it loose without worry about cracking or damaging the valve cover.

Hammer? hmm, that would be interesting.


So, is it ok to think its not the rings and hope its a Valve cover or the turbo?

[KingWulfgar]

Start with a new VC gasket. If yours is welded on that tight, your gasket is brittle and shot. Mine was like that after about 98k miles and it took me well over an hour to work it off (I was being cautious and trying to do it without damaging it or the head). I ended up starting in the front corner on the PCV side and just carefully twisting a flat-head screwdriver and a plastic trim tool all along that side until it finally broke free. Scared me a bit when it did, but I couldn't find any cracks. The brittle gasket is also what's holding the bolts in. They'll come out once you get it off. I would replace those too since they have rubber washers. You'll probably end up having to carefully scrape the rest of the gasket off the head and clean that well too.

I wouldn't go much further down the road of "what could possibly be wrong" until you clear up this easy one.

ETA: I couldn't get that small hose off either. I tried good hose picks and everything. Permanently affixed. I just left it and bent the VC backwards over it since it's flexible anyway.

[Charles.waite]

Will try again soon. I just put it back because I didnt want to loose any bolts.
And that little hose next to the breather tube, its on there. I mean may fused internally. haha



Thanks Andy, I might take you up on that. I can drive like a grandma without ever getting into the boost with my hazards on. Currently I am trying to get another car so I can slowly work on this car. At least I have ruled out PCV by installing the old one back.



Hammer? hmm, that would be interesting.


So, is it ok to think its not the rings and hope its a Valve cover or the turbo?

A deadblow hammer. Not a metal carpenters hammer. There's a big difference.

My guess is due to the volume of smoke it's not rings. Have you done a compression test?

[Theiceman]

all 4 rings sets of rings at the same time ? highly unlikely. you have oil coming into your intake..

[Charles.waite]

all 4 rings sets of rings at the same time ? highly unlikely. you have oil coming into your intake..

That's what I'm leaning towards too. Given how nasty the plugs are and the really extreme consumption.

Fwiw I have piston ring issues and burn maybe 1qt in 1400 miles. And my spark plugs look perfectly fine, not all gunked up and wet like yours. My guess is pcv and/or valve cover given the oil leaking around the bolts.

[Low and Behold]

That's what I'm leaning towards too. Given how nasty the plugs are and the really extreme consumption.

Fwiw I have piston ring issues and burn maybe 1qt in 1400 miles. And my spark plugs look perfectly fine, not all gunked up and wet like yours. My guess is pcv and/or valve cover given the oil leaking around the bolts.

Agreed.

OP - when you swap parts back and forth you may not see an IMMEDIATE difference. If tons of oil is ultimately being sucked through your intake, its going to take some time for it to clear out. Clean out your IC pipes and the one that goes to the intake manifold.

Your car is going to continue blowing smoke until you clear those out

[RakkCity]

ETA: I couldn't get that small hose off either. I tried good hose picks and everything. Permanently affixed. I just left it and bent the VC backwards over it since it's flexible anyway.

Same problem with that little hose, I ended up using some channel locks to "scrunch up" the hose carefully off of a few spots, and eventually I could twist it to break free and pull it off. After I got the valve cover off and realized the whole f'in thing is plastic, I got down on my knees and thanked the lord I didn't crush that tube getting the hose off. $350 from Audi probably because I didn't have time to wait to ship a new one.

[aluthman]

Rebuild the turbo. With the amount of oil you are burning it has to be getting shot right into the intake, exhaust, or both. The only way to get that much oil in there is the turbo oil feed shooting it right through a bad seal. I could see a bad VC causing you to lose a quart over 1000 miles, but not <90 miles.

[Okedokey]

I would try the VC and gasket first. Cheap and could solve the problem.