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  1. #1
    Active Member One Ring
    Join Date
    Jan 29 2010
    AZ Member #
    54152
    Location
    Seattle, WA

    Just Picked up a 2000 Avant Quattro 5-sp. Crank but no start. Where to begin

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    I just picked up a 2000 A4 Avant Quattro with a 1.8T and a 5-speed. I have some fun plans for the car since I payed almost nothing for it. I'm thinking of something like an "off road style" adventure wagon with roof rack LED light bars, brush bar, possible lift, flares and tires.
    However, the first order of business is get the old girl running again.
    I haven't started into it other than turning it over. So far it spins freely, but no attempt to start.
    I am smelling gas after a few seconds of cranking, so I'm thinking the first box for fuel is probably checked.

    I scanned it and pulled a ton of codes.
    P1114
    P0411
    P0140
    P1136
    and P0507

    Several of these are related to O2 sensor behavior.

    Do any of you B5 guru's have ideas on my best course of action to start off?
    Is there something obvious I need to check first?

    Thanks.

  2. #2
    Veteran Member Four Rings A1 A2 German's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 28 2005
    AZ Member #
    5519
    My Garage
    Audi A4 B5, Audi Fox, Audi AMLS TT, GS450, CB175, CL175
    Location
    Tempe

    If your car has a test pipe grab an 02 spacer from Autozone for $5 to space out the rear 02.

    Record the codes and clear them. I say this is as something as simple as your boost/ic boot leaking or blowing off can result in 6+ codes which are false. It appears you may have a vacuum leak. You should do a leak down test (boost test) with a sewer cap and ~10-15psi with an air compressor and sewer cap (NO MORE THEN 15psi!) :http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/server61...0.1280.JPG?c=2

    You do not have to add the pressure gauge to the cap as you'll have one on your compressor yet only ~$5 more to add. Just a sewer cap and the nipple to add the air line.

    Depending on the other codes, I would start her up after clearing those and a leak down.

    And remember to report back.

  3. #3
    Active Member One Ring
    Join Date
    Jan 29 2010
    AZ Member #
    54152
    Location
    Seattle, WA

    Thanks, That is a great idea for a starting point.
    I'm going to jump into this in the next day or so as time permits and I'll be sure to report back.

  4. #4
    Active Member One Ring
    Join Date
    Jan 29 2010
    AZ Member #
    54152
    Location
    Seattle, WA

    I haven't gotten to pressure testing the intake yet, but I have confirmed that I have fuel at the rail and in the cylinders. I am not getting spark.
    So a no-spark condition makes me think in terms of crank position sensor or cam position sensor.

    I will get into the crank position sensor tomorrow. Does anyone have a reliable method for testing either?

  5. #5
    Veteran Member Three Rings pee quu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 25 2009
    AZ Member #
    37870
    Location
    Oceanside, NY

    If a crank sensor is cheap enough just buy it and put it in . My brother recently had this issue on his S3. Drive fine the night before and the next day he went to start it and nothing but crank. told him to change the crank sensor and the car was good as new. Check fuses also, that would be the cheapest place to start. Crank sensor usually doesn't through a CEL tho

  6. #6
    Veteran Member Four Rings walky_talky20's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 30 2008
    AZ Member #
    30427
    Location
    Erie, Pennsylvania

    There are 4 wires to each of the coil packs:

    12v+ from the ECM power supply relay (computer controlled relay)
    Ground from valve cover to drive the coil
    Ground for the internal igniter (ECU ground reference)
    5v+ low-power square wave trigger signal for the internal igniter

    Find which thing you are missing, and then trace that problem to the source.

    If you are getting fuel delivery, your crankshaft position sensor is quite likely just fine. If the sensor is faulty, the ECU doesn't have RPM signal and will not fire the coils OR the fuel injectors. So injector pulse means the ECU definitely has RPM signal. Given that there is fuel delivery, it is highly unlikely that there is any problem with the crankshaft position sensor (engine speed sensor).

    More likely you are missing 12v+ power supply to the coil packs. (Don't take my word for this. Test it for yourself). This could be due to a broken wire in the heat-damaged coil pack harness. It could be due to a blown fuse (usually caused by broken and shorted wires in the heat-damaged coil pack harness). It could also be due to a faulty ECU power supply relay (motronic relay) that is failing to provide power to the coils.

    Sidenote: For the most and best help, it is advisable to give the forum readership the least amount of homework. Decode your codes like this, so that people can recognize and comment on their experience with said codes. People usually don't remember all those P numbers:

    P1114 - Bank1-Sensor2 Internal Resistant too High
    P0411 - Sec.Air Inj.Sys. Incorrect Flow Detected
    P0140 - O2 Sensor Circ.,Bank1-Sensor2 No Activity Detected
    P1136 - Long Term Fuel Trim Add.Fuel,Bank1 System too Lean
    P0507 - Idle Control System Higher than Expected

    None of those are explaining your crank/no-start, unfortunately.

    To answer a few of your other questions:
    - You test a crank position sensor by looking at it's waveform with an oscilloscope or by watching/logging/graphing RPM values as perceived by the ECU during cranking.
    - An alternative method is to check an ECU output that is dependent on good crank sensor input. For example: if 5v+ square wave trigger to coil packs is present during cranking, crank sensor signal is ok.
    - Camshaft position sensor is not required to get spark on a 2000 1.8T. You will have spark on all 4 coil packs during cranking even with the cam sensor unplugged.
    Last edited by walky_talky20; 06-23-2016 at 10:40 PM.
    ^Don't listen to this guy, he's not even a mechanic.
    2001 Laser Red A4 1.8TQM, 5-Speed Swapped, 4.11 Final Drive, APR 93, 2.5" Exhaust, ST Coilovers, 034 RSB, A8 Brakes Front & Rear
    2006 Passion Red Volvo V50 T5 AWD 6MT
    2000 Satin Silver Passat 1.8T FWD Wagon, Slippy Tiptronic, 15" Hubcaps
    2001 Aluminum Silver Metallic A4 Avant 1.8TQM (winter sled)

  7. #7
    Active Member One Ring
    Join Date
    Jan 29 2010
    AZ Member #
    54152
    Location
    Seattle, WA

    Thanks Walky_Talky20 This is the kind of info I come here looking for. I love to know that there is a resource of informed and experienced mechanics or tinkerers out there in the community.

    I am just getting back into this diagnosis. The car has been sitting since my last post because the time just wasn't there to get to it.
    In the interim I did order a few tune up bits that have since arrived.

    With the key in the on position I do have 12V power to the coils. I haven't gone through each coil plug to determine the other 3 pins yet. I will approach that next.

  8. #8
    Active Member One Ring
    Join Date
    Jan 29 2010
    AZ Member #
    54152
    Location
    Seattle, WA

    Just in case anyone is watching and waiting for my result....
    I did put a new crank position sensor in, and when I pulled the old one out it had a few slivers of suspect metal clinging to it (It is a magnet after all).
    I had thought the car sounded like it was turning over too easily when cranking, so I decided to go right back to the beginning before doing anything else and compression test all 4 cylinders.

    Just as I suspected the #4 cylinder is dead. The connecting rod is broken and the piston is free to move in the cylinder.

    Now I'm looking for a replacement motor.

    Question for the board:This is an ATW 1.8T, What Engine can I swap in or upgrade to? AMU perhaps? Will there be any Engine management issues with a different motor?

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