B8 Ko4 owners follow up thread

[EvolutionArmory]

Wagner is already almost at ambient temp. So what do expect to get with bar and plate? Under ambient temp?
I'm 5°C over ambient temp pushing 28PSI with my wagner.

I’d expect it to be able to stay at 5c over ambient for longer without heat soaking under less than perfect conditions

Have you ever logged back to back pulls in the summer? Just curious.

High density bar and plate is going to be able to cool better at the expense of slight pressure drop but the better cooling usually more than makes up for it.

Some people will argue that less flow through the core with a high density bar and plate will raise coolant temp but I’ve never seen that actually happen. I’m not discounting that it can, I’m just saying I’ve never seen an increase in temps.


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[Mars2]

I’d expect it to be able to stay at 5c over ambient for longer without heat soaking under less than perfect conditions

Have you ever logged back to back pulls in the summer? Just curious.

High density bar and plate is going to be able to cool better at the expense of slight pressure drop but the better cooling usually more than makes up for it.

Some people will argue that less flow through the core with a high density bar and plate will raise coolant temp but I’ve never seen that actually happen. I’m not discounting that it can, I’m just saying I’ve never seen an increase in temps.


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I did a few run in summer 37°C with multiple pull I stay at +5°C also on multiple pull on Dyno when my tuner log it.

[spike6339]

I purchased the rev9 setup about a year ago, and I don’t feel as if I’ve had any issues. The previous person was right, it doesn’t come with mounting brackets. But it was fairly easy to fabricate something.


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[HOJeepster]

So I just had my CTS K04 Turbo, CTS downpipe, ECS Intercooler with hard piping and APR Stage 3 software installed by SCR Performance in Loveland. The driving experience is definitely altered as expected - more turbo lag vs the K03. What I wasn't expecting was the K03 on stage 1 'felt' like it was boosting harder and pulled harder, versus the K04 feels 'stronger' but doesn't feel like it boosts as hard. However, its clear the K04 has more top end power because when i floor it from 60, it goes up to 90 like its the business vs the k03. So in summary, the K03 on Stage 1 'feels' more under 'boost', but the Ko4 feels stronger and more powerful up to 6k rpm. Its going to take some getting use to in driving, but the car is definitely faster.

However, I am getting a weird high pitch sound coming from the driver side dash. It almost sounds like an ear ringing pitch, or a speaker feedback high pitch. Anyone have any ideas what this could be? The sound is a bit louder in the video vs real life, but check it out. What is this? (Leak down test shows no boost leaks).

https://youtu.be/bh6wNsDldhs

[Brandon K.]

So I just had my CTS K04 Turbo, CTS downpipe, ECS Intercooler with hard piping and APR Stage 3 software installed by SCR Performance in Loveland. The driving experience is definitely altered as expected - more turbo lag vs the K03. What I wasn't expecting was the K03 on stage 1 'felt' like it was boosting harder and pulled harder, versus the K04 feels 'stronger' but doesn't feel like it boosts as hard. However, its clear the K04 has more top end power because when i floor it from 60, it goes up to 90 like its the business vs the k03. So in summary, the K03 on Stage 1 'feels' more under 'boost', but the Ko4 feels stronger and more powerful up to 6k rpm. Its going to take some getting use to in driving, but the car is definitely faster.

However, I am getting a weird high pitch sound coming from the driver side dash. It almost sounds like an ear ringing pitch, or a speaker feedback high pitch. Anyone have any ideas what this could be? The sound is a bit louder in the video vs real life, but check it out. What is this? (Leak down test shows no boost leaks).

https://youtu.be/bh6wNsDldhs

Tuned K03 is a torque monster down low & good midrange. K04 is week down low, good in the middle and decent up top. I sort of miss the V8 torque the K03 had in regular traffic. It felt ridiculously quick off the line.


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[Nano909]

Tuned K03 is a torque monster down low & good midrange. K04 is week down low, good in the middle and decent up top. I sort of miss the V8 torque the K03 had in regular traffic. It felt ridiculously quick off the line.


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On OTS tunes this is correct. With custom tunes you keep the sick low range torque as well as the godly top range.

[Spawne32]

Tuned K03 is a torque monster down low & good midrange. K04 is week down low, good in the middle and decent up top. I sort of miss the V8 torque the K03 had in regular traffic. It felt ridiculously quick off the line.


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What exactly is "down low"? Because I can get over 2.8 bar at 2800rpm.

[Nano909]

What exactly is "down low"? Because I can get over 2.8 bar at 2800rpm.

BB hit 369 wtq at 2800rpm 🤣

[EvolutionArmory]

For once Spawne and I agree on something.

There’s nothing good about JHM intercoolers.


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[EvolutionArmory]

Who started this myth that the K03 has better torque than a K04? Look at how flat the torque curve is on this APR dyno. And this is only 91 octane.

Attachment 220441


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[JLAllroad]

Who started this myth that the K03 has better torque than a K04? Look at how flat the torque curve is on this APR dyno. And this is only 91 octane.

Attachment 220441


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The IHI K03 is essentially using a K04 turbine with a K03 compressor, the response down low will be different, more so on a B8.5 using E85, but I know that fact was not known of the poster a few back.

That said, I do believe we can get him closer to the K03 performance, just need some diagnostics and tweaking.


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[bb-tt]

3rd gear pulls with ko3, k04 , and custom tune for ko4 MAF and time from 2k rpm to 7k in 1k increments. If you think your k04 is laggie something is not set right or you have a boost leak.

[Iceman502]

3rd gear pulls with ko3, k04 , and custom tune for ko4 MAF and time from 2k rpm to 7k in 1k increments. If you think your k04 is laggie something is not set right or you have a boost leak.

BB can you add your boost actual to that table? You've got me beat by 5-15% across the rev range, and it would be interesting to see what pressure you're running to do that. Maybe IAT if you're feeling really generous

[bb-tt]

BB can you add your boost actual to that table? You've got me beat by 5-15% across the rev range, and it would be interesting to see what pressure you're running to do that. Maybe IAT if you're feeling really generous

i could but boost just shows how much restriction you have and i have posted lots of logs on here that show how much boost pressure i have. MaF is a much better indication of power than boost.

[A4x]

The laws of physics say otherwise. Bigger turbo = more lag. Keep it simple folks.

Don't get me wrong, going from K03 to K04 is not a big jump in size. However, there is a small size difference which will contribute to extra lag. Just like you get more top end with K04. The tradeoff must be somewhere. This isn't perpetual motion or reversing the 2nd law of thermodynamics. I believe this one would fall under Newton's second law.

Turbo size is matched to the engine and other parameters for a reason. Otherwise everyone would just be going with the biggest turbo they can.

Some people just can't admit after they have spent thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of their time to "upgrade" they get additional turbo lag .

Another factor is they largely forget what it was like to drive a stage 2 stock turbo car. I know I do. But in the back of my head, I remember it was hella fun until 4500 rpm or so.

[bb-tt]

The laws of physics say otherwise. Bigger turbo = more lag. Keep it simple folks.

Don't get me wrong, going from K03 to K04 is not a big jump in size. However, there is a small size difference which will contribute to extra lag. Just like you get more top end with K04. The tradeoff must be somewhere. This isn't perpetual motion or reversing the 2nd law of thermodynamics. I believe this one would fall under Newton's second law.

Turbo size is matched to the engine and other parameters for a reason. Otherwise everyone would just be going with the biggest turbo they can.

Some people just can't admit after they have spent thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of their time to "upgrade" they get additional turbo lag .

Another factor is they largely forget what it was like to drive a stage 2 stock turbo car. I know I do. But in the back of my head, I remember it was hella fun until 4500 rpm or so.

The k04 is not a big turbo.

[A4x]

The k04 is not a big turbo.

I didn't say it was. What I said is the K04 is bigger than the stock turbo.

[Spawne32]

I didn't say it was. What I said is the K04 is bigger than the stock turbo.

There is a lot going on here besides just turbo size. I think one of the big things we have come to find out recently is that many of the OTS tunes we were relying on for K04 turbos do not utilize the low end torque the thing is capable of producing. Even if the K04 spools slightly later than the K03, its only by a couple hundred RPM, something that is barely even noticeable except for on a dyno. BB's 369 ft lbs of torque @ 2800rpm is far beyond anything anyone has produced on pump gas thus far.

[bb-tt]

I didn't say it was. What I said is the K04 is bigger than the stock turbo.

Agree was on phone so kept it short. The difference in spool for the k03 and k04 is negligible, it is a stock turbo for many vag applications. If you are noticing a difference there is most likely an issue with the setup (boost leak, restrictions to the flow, wg issues) or your tune just does not request much boost down low. As shown in the table i posted my car built rpm (spooled up quicker) with both the ie beta and wpt k04 tune than with a stage 2 ie tune. Will have to look and see if i can find a log of the ie stock k04 tune for comparison. But in general yes lag sux and a bigger turbo will have more lag but there are thing s you can do to try to counteract some of that.

[A4x]

Agree was on phone so kept it short. The difference in spool for the k03 and k04 is negligible, it is a stock turbo for many vag applications. If you are noticing a difference there is most likely an issue with the setup (boost leak, restrictions to the flow, wg issues) or your tune just does not request much boost down low. As shown in the table i posted my car built rpm (spooled up quicker) with both the ie beta and wpt k04 tune than with a stage 2 ie tune. Will have to look and see if i can find a log of the ie stock k04 tune for comparison. But in general yes lag sux and a bigger turbo will have more lag but there are thing s you can do to try to counteract some of that.

If there are things you can do to counteract that, then there are things you can to to speed up the spool time on a smaller turbo! Stop being delusional.

[JLAllroad]

Agree was on phone so kept it short. The difference in spool for the k03 and k04 is negligible, it is a stock turbo for many vag applications. If you are noticing a difference there is most likely an issue with the setup (boost leak, restrictions to the flow, wg issues) or your tune just does not request much boost down low. As shown in the table i posted my car built rpm (spooled up quicker) with both the ie beta and wpt k04 tune than with a stage 2 ie tune. Will have to look and see if i can find a log of the ie stock k04 tune for comparison. But in general yes lag sux and a bigger turbo will have more lag but there are thing s you can do to try to counteract some of that.

Btw, I don’t know why we would feel good about comparing and beating any the IE OTS tunes at this point.


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[Iceman502]

The k04 is not a big turbo.

Agreed, the housings many of us are using are exactly the same/nearly identicaly to the stock IHI, so the volume you have to fill before building pressure is the same (minus larger intercooler, but this can be found on most stage 2 cars anyways). The wheel is the only change, and in this case, it is more effective across a wider range of operating conditions.

The laws of physics rely on numbers, which in this case, clearly show the K04 wheel outperforming the K03 wheel. More boost = more air, and BB's data comparison is the best validation you could ever ask for.

[Brandon K.]

The laws of physics say otherwise. Bigger turbo = more lag. Keep it simple folks.

Don't get me wrong, going from K03 to K04 is not a big jump in size. However, there is a small size difference which will contribute to extra lag. Just like you get more top end with K04. The tradeoff must be somewhere. This isn't perpetual motion or reversing the 2nd law of thermodynamics. I believe this one would fall under Newton's second law.

Turbo size is matched to the engine and other parameters for a reason. Otherwise everyone would just be going with the biggest turbo they can.

Some people just can't admit after they have spent thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of their time to "upgrade" they get additional turbo lag .

Another factor is they largely forget what it was like to drive a stage 2 stock turbo car. I know I do. But in the back of my head, I remember it was hella fun until 4500 rpm or so.

Sorry I have not been on here in the last couple week. I started to read all the posts to catch up, but eventually got disinterested in the back and forth arguments.

I agree with A4x and stand by my statement that the K03 has more immediate response (spools faster) and is more fun in traffic. The response from my K03 was more or less instantaneous and the K04 has a slight lag to it. I don’t think I ever actually stated the K03 had more torque, just that it was a “torque monster”. What I was getting at was that it had V8 like instantaneous torque. The K04’s small amount of lag and it’s torque being elevated slightly in the RPMs makes it feel more like a “turbo car”.

Nobody in there right mind would call a K04
a “big turbo” but there is a small concession made going from a K03 to a K04 in terms of a slight delay. To me, if felt like the total torque output of both the K04 & K03 are about the same.

In traffic and from a stop I like the instantaneous torque of the K03. Back roads, the longer legs of the K04 are more fun. My K04 needs brake boosting to get of the line quickly and with the K03 I could just mash the peddle. Like most of us, I do not regret going K04.


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[Nano909]

Sorry I have not been on here in the last couple week. I started to read all the posts to catch up, but eventually got disinterested in the back and forth arguments.

I agree with A4x and stand by my statement that the K03 has more immediate response (spools faster) and is more fun in traffic. The response from my K03 was more or less instantaneous and the K04 has a slight lag to it. I don’t think I ever actually stated the K03 had more torque, just that it was a “torque monster”. What I was getting at was that it had V8 like instantaneous torque. The K04’s small amount of lag and it’s torque being elevated slightly in the RPMs makes it feel more like a “turbo car”.

Nobody in there right mind would call a K04
a “big turbo” but there is a small concession made going from a K03 to a K04 in terms of a slight delay. To me, if felt like the total torque output of both the K04 & K03 are about the same.

In traffic and from a stop I like the instantaneous torque of the K03. Back roads, the longer legs of the K04 are more fun. My K04 needs brake boosting to get of the line quickly and with the K03 I could just mash the peddle. Like most of us, I do not regret going K04.


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My K04 torque is instantaneous 🤔

[A4x]

You are comparing BBs custom tune K04 to what? And OTS stock turbo tune?

Let's keep it apples to apples and for your average enthusiast who doesn't have hundreds of hours to custom tune a 4 cylinder A4: APR stock turbo stage 2 produces a significant amount more low end torque than APR K04 tune. These are the facts. Custom tune a stock turbo and you'd probably get even more torque.

I've seen countless number of users who just spent $4000-5000 to have a shop install their K04 and come on here to mention the turbo lag. I want this to be completely transparent for people like that BEFORE they drop the cash. You will gain additional turbo lag with K04! It's NORMAL to have more turbo lag with the K04 "upgrade".

This is almost equivalent to Perry coming on here telling us how strong the IE K04 tune is. It's complete bullshit, and I don't want to mislead the average enthusiast.

[Spawne32]

You are comparing BBs custom tune K04 to what? And OTS stock turbo tune?

Let's keep it apples to apples and for your average enthusiast who doesn't have hundreds of hours to custom tune a 4 cylinder A4: APR stock turbo stage 2 produces a significant amount more low end torque than APR K04 tune. These are the facts. Custom tune a stock turbo and you'd probably get even more torque.

I've seen countless number of users who just spent $4000-5000 to have a shop install their K04 and come on here to mention the turbo lag. I want this to be completely transparent for people like that BEFORE they drop the cash. You will gain additional turbo lag with K04! It's NORMAL to have more turbo lag with the K04 "upgrade".

This is almost equivalent to Perry coming on here telling us how strong the IE K04 tune is. It's complete bullshit, and I don't want to mislead the average enthusiast.

No I am not trying to do a comparison, just merely stating that the idea that the turbo itself, specifically the upgrade from the K03 to the K04 causes turbo lag just isn't true. It is capable of producing actually more low end torque at the same if not lower rpm than the K03 is capable of with any of the available offerings for the K03 on the market, that's all. My point being that "turbo lag" is not something that is an issue on the K04 at all. If you are experiencing turbo lag, that is entirely in the tune, and nothing more.

[JLAllroad]

No I am not trying to do a comparison, just merely stating that the idea that the turbo itself, specifically the upgrade from the K03 to the K04 causes turbo lag just isn't true. It is capable of producing actually more low end torque at the same if not lower rpm than the K03 is capable of with any of the available offerings for the K03 on the market, that's all. My point being that "turbo lag" is not something that is an issue on the K04 at all. If you are experiencing turbo lag, that is entirely in the tune, and nothing more.

And if you are not getting more response out of a K03 than a K04, down low, it is tune related. There is a point down low at which you might need to question the reasoning, longevity?


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[Spawne32]

And if you are not getting more response out of a K03 than a K04, down low, it is tune related. There is a point down low at which you might need to question the reasoning, longevity?


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Not so much longevity in my opinion as it is safety. Hard pressed to sell a tune to the general public which everyone can just flash to their car regardless of location, mods, etc and not run the risk of blowing cars up if you are that aggressive down low. Certain brands are far softer on low end power then others are, which time and testing has proved. The custom tuning is drawing out every last drop of power we can, and that's what we want.

[Perry01]

This is almost equivalent to Perry coming on here telling us how strong the IE K04 tune is. It's complete bullshit, and I don't want to mislead the average enthusiast.

You are misleading everyone who is reading this by saying that I told anyone how strong the IE K04 tune is. I’ve never once commented on its performance because I’ve never had it installed on my vehicle. I back up my comments with data, and first hand knowledge. Yes, my IE tune is very strong but I’ve always stated that it’s a custom tune and that information is also I’m my signature so no one is mislead. If you want to know where the complete bullshit is coming from, look in the mirror.

[Iceman502]

You are comparing BBs custom tune K04 to what? And OTS stock turbo tune?

Let's keep it apples to apples and for your average enthusiast who doesn't have hundreds of hours to custom tune a 4 cylinder A4: APR stock turbo stage 2 produces a significant amount more low end torque than APR K04 tune. These are the facts. Custom tune a stock turbo and you'd probably get even more torque.

I've seen countless number of users who just spent $4000-5000 to have a shop install their K04 and come on here to mention the turbo lag. I want this to be completely transparent for people like that BEFORE they drop the cash. You will gain additional turbo lag with K04! It's NORMAL to have more turbo lag with the K04 "upgrade".

This is almost equivalent to Perry coming on here telling us how strong the IE K04 tune is. It's complete bullshit, and I don't want to mislead the average enthusiast.

I run an OTS tune from IE with two very minor revisions. I'm talking controller gain, not map rewrites. With that in mind, tomorrow, I'm going to add my g/s airflow to BB's table for further data comparison. More air, more fuel, more power. If you can flow more air at any given point, you're going to make more power.

What's not bullshit, is that the compressor housings are the same volume. There is no additional lag created when swapping these turbos with regard to the frames themselves. The only quantifiable difference you could cite beyond airflow readings would be a manufacturer plot showing ramp-up speeds of pressure generation in a controlled environment. If you can find that, please share because I'd love to see one. They typically only provide compressor maps that don't show pressure derivatives.

You're talking about physics to back your argument, but physics isn't on your side at all in this one. Please, provide a counterpoint to Bb's chart showing more airflow with an IE OTS K04 tune, and an IE OTS Stage 2 tune. Since the K04 naturally flows more air, the boost ramp up at low rpm's is slower due to torque/safety limits on the rods, and the exhaust camshaft phase switch at 3000 rpm. Once you cross that threshold, 22 psi for days from OTS. The custom tune guys are trying to launch a piston to mars with the way they're tuning, and they know that. Their tune is not for the typical user who wants to maintain peak reliability (can I even say that when talking about an EA888 gen 2)?

[Spawne32]

I run an OTS tune from IE with two very minor revisions. I'm talking controller gain, not map rewrites. With that in mind, tomorrow, I'm going to add my g/s airflow to BB's table for further data comparison. More air, more fuel, more power. If you can flow more air at any given point, you're going to make more power.

What's not bullshit, is that the compressor housings are the same volume. There is no additional lag created when swapping these turbos with regard to the frames themselves. The only quantifiable difference you could cite beyond airflow readings would be a manufacturer plot showing ramp-up speeds of pressure generation in a controlled environment. If you can find that, please share because I'd love to see one. They typically only provide compressor maps that don't show pressure derivatives.

You're talking about physics to back your argument, but physics isn't on your side at all in this one. Please, provide a counterpoint to Bb's chart showing more airflow with an IE OTS K04 tune, and an IE OTS Stage 2 tune. Since the K04 naturally flows more air, the boost ramp up at low rpm's is slower due to torque/safety limits on the rods, and the exhaust camshaft phase switch at 3000 rpm. Once you cross that threshold, 22 psi for days from OTS. The custom tune guys are trying to launch a piston to mars with the way they're tuning, and they know that. Their tune is not for the typical user who wants to maintain peak reliability (can I even say that when talking about an EA888 gen 2)?

[Mars2]

Are you calling me Bitch?

[Spawne32]

Are you calling me Bitch?

Nah, you differentiate yourself from the first mars. ;)

[A4x]

I run an OTS tune from IE with two very minor revisions. I'm talking controller gain, not map rewrites. With that in mind, tomorrow, I'm going to add my g/s airflow to BB's table for further data comparison. More air, more fuel, more power. If you can flow more air at any given point, you're going to make more power.

What's not bullshit, is that the compressor housings are the same volume. There is no additional lag created when swapping these turbos with regard to the frames themselves. The only quantifiable difference you could cite beyond airflow readings would be a manufacturer plot showing ramp-up speeds of pressure generation in a controlled environment. If you can find that, please share because I'd love to see one. They typically only provide compressor maps that don't show pressure derivatives.

You're talking about physics to back your argument, but physics isn't on your side at all in this one. Please, provide a counterpoint to Bb's chart showing more airflow with an IE OTS K04 tune, and an IE OTS Stage 2 tune. Since the K04 naturally flows more air, the boost ramp up at low rpm's is slower due to torque/safety limits on the rods, and the exhaust camshaft phase switch at 3000 rpm. Once you cross that threshold, 22 psi for days from OTS. The custom tune guys are trying to launch a piston to mars with the way they're tuning, and they know that. Their tune is not for the typical user who wants to maintain peak reliability (can I even say that when talking about an EA888 gen 2)?

First of all, MAF g/s is not a perfect comparison and does not tell a complete story. It is just one piece of the puzzle.

I am not referring to compressor housing size being responsible for the K04 having more lag. Start thinking about compressor wheel and turbine wheel geometry. Where does the compressor gets its energy from? What causes a K03 or IHI JH5 to run out of steam at high RPMs? Why can a K04 flow more air at these high rpms?

[Traptalk]

First of all, MAF g/s is not a perfect comparison and does not tell a complete story. It is just one piece of the puzzle.

I am not referring to compressor housing size being responsible for the K04 having more lag. Start thinking about compressor wheel and turbine wheel geometry. Where does the compressor gets its energy from? What causes a K03 or IHI JH5 to run out of steam at high RPMs? Why can a K04 flow more air at these high rpms?

The major differences are in the turbine housing

The stock turbo has a much shallower and smaller volume turbine housing

[Mars2]

The major differences are in the turbine housing

The stock turbo has a much shallower and smaller volume turbine housing

Are you 100% sure of that.
Some guy's measure it 4 or 5 year ago and says IHI JH5 has bigger Turbine AR.
I don't have a K04 to compare. but when I see picture it does not look much bigger.
Turbine wheel slightly bigger on IHI JH5 that K04-64. I'm just speaking of the size of turbine wheel not how it flow as nobody knows how IHI JH5 turbine flow VS K04 turbine.

[Iceman502]

First of all, MAF g/s is not a perfect comparison and does not tell a complete story. It is just one piece of the puzzle.

I am not referring to compressor housing size being responsible for the K04 having more lag. Start thinking about compressor wheel and turbine wheel geometry. Where does the compressor gets its energy from? What causes a K03 or IHI JH5 to run out of steam at high RPMs? Why can a K04 flow more air at these high rpms?

You say 'first of all' and then list one point before quizzing me about the turbine wheel and its operational efficiency range....

MAF is not perfect for torque, but it is the only tool by which we can compare airflow, and we have been discussing lag. In this case and fortunately for us, both tunes reach the same boost pressure down low if I remember correctly. Your rephrase of 'less torque' has some truth to it, but the lag thing is debunked. Lag is lack of airflow and boost, right? We've quantitatively shown thats not the case.

[SNice]

Just curious here - what is the ballpark cost of a custom tune? Not including parts, downtime, etc. What do custom tuners charge for their service? Flat fee, hourly, x number of revisions free? I think this info might help future K04’ers.

How does custom tune cost compare to OTS?


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[Nano909]

Just curious here - what is the ballpark cost of a custom tune? Not including parts, downtime, etc. What do custom tuners charge for their service? Flat fee, hourly, x number of revisions free? I think this info might help future K04’ers.

How does custom tune cost compare to OTS?


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Not much more in comparison to an OTS tune. IE and APR are like $500-$600 plus the shop's fee. If you were to follow us, you'd pay $300 for the HPTuner's dongle, $100 for 2 credits to unlock the ECU, and whatever fee the tuner charges. Maybe it would be a bit more than an OTS tune, but you'd be getting a tune specific to your car without all the lag and weak low end torque the OTS tunes give.

[HOJeepster]

Well this is all interesting feedback on K04. I just wanted someone to listen to my youtube video sound and help me determine what that might be haha. I'll have to drive more with the new K04 and see whats up.