My super sweet water/meth setup

[jonjon88ss]

Decided to dive into the water/meth scene this year, now I'm hooked. You feel when it kicks in, the car sounds and runs completely different when it sprays. I get sub ambient inlet air temps and around 100-110 octane on demand with my setup. This is not a bolt up and go item and there is lots of research you need to do before deciding to go this route.
I suggest starting here http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31857
Ive read that whole thread twice, the VW guys are doing crazy stuff with water/meth in our motor, most of what I learned was from their forums.

Went with the devils own kit with the progressive controller, here's the new updated 200psi pump
[IMG][/IMG]
Installed it in the trunk, pull the shelf thing out and theres a perfect little flat spot for it. The black line gos from the pump, to an inline filter, then the tanks. The white line shown is the vent line that vents out outside the trunk over the muffler area. I chose to run sealed tanks and vented them outside through this line. Search Methanol inhalation to see why.

I decided to run 2 tanks instead of 1 large tank to act as a baffle against sloshing. Theyre in the trunk space because I wanted them easily reachable for refilling. I fold the rear seat usually to fill the front one, because they're teed they both fill at the same time. Heres a pic of them mocked up.

Drilled the trunk and ran the line and wiring through proper grommets. One wire is the ground signal from controller to pump, the other is ground signal from the tank level sensor.

They both follow the brake lines under the car to the engine bay. For the most part they are covered by plastic covers and inner fender. The area behind the front wheel is the only place exposed seen here, but it tucked nice so nothing can grab it in the brake lines.

I'm running 2 separate nozzles, each has its own solenoid.

The first is a DO 2 nozzle just after the intercooler exit. Bought a bung from summit racing and welded it into the jhm piping.

Rethreaded the bung so the nozzle fits flush with a slight recess for an optimal spray pattern. sanded the piping to keep airflow past it nice and smooth.

Next up is a DO1 nozzle shot just after the throttle body through an Integrated Engineering spacer plate.

Tightened and loosened the nozzle multiple times to let the threads cut in until it sat flush with slight recess as seen here.

The bolts that come out of the manifold and the bolts that come with the spacer are completely different, I tried to match up the threads of the original ones that came out with longer versions from the hardware store. I hit boost and the whole thing popped off with those...used the funny coarse threaded ones it came with and have had no issues since. Notice where the nozzle is located compared to the usrt spacer, no dipstick issues.

So the idea here is, around 8 psi the pump starts kicking on, and the solenoid in the intercooler piping starts spraying to chemically cool the incoming air. As Boost increases the controller starts ramping up the flow to match it.

At around 13 psi this adjustable pressure switch closes allowing the throttle body solenoid to also open and start spraying to achieve my octane boost only when its needed. Now with both nozzles spraying the controller continues to ramp up the water meth flow according to boost demand until full pump flow around 18 psi.

I'm currently running this setup on top of the JHM stage 2 93oct tune. The car is an Animal now, no regrets, I'm hooked on this stuff. I'm hoping this thread takes the scariness out of the install and makes this a more popular modification for our platform.

[Okedokey]

Nice work mate! Put some heavy gauge shrink wrap or other protection on the looming in the wheel bay. Also, why didn't you just use a local earth closer to each device rather than running the wires? Also how did you 'control' the kick in again?

[aluthman]

Nice install, it looks well thought out. I'm curious as to why you chose to run 2 solenoids instead of using a check valve in one location.

[lettuce]

So you're just running this on a regular 93 octane tune with 93 octane gas? What's your total combined flow rate of all your nozzles? You don't have any problems with running rich due to the extra fuel not being accounted for?

I'm only curious because I've physically installed a dual nozzle Snow meth setup in my car, but have yet to wire it up and turn it on because I'm still trying to decide if I want/need to tune for it first, among a few other reasons. I'd rather not have to tune for it because the added boost and/or advanced timing that my tune would be giving me would blow my shit up if my meth system ever failed and it's not worth it to me to lose my DD to something like that, so I'm hoping I can run it with my base 93 stage 3 tune and let my O2/MAF/ECU compensate for the extra gas and still get a decent performance gain out of it without bogging my engine down with too much extra fuel.

[aluthman]

I run a 2 gph nozzle (post TB) and a 4 gph nozzle (post FMIC) on my meth setup and it ran fine once I had the controller adjusted. I did change the tune to account for it after I got it all setup how I wanted though.

Here's my install:
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...t=snow+stage+2

[lettuce]

I run a 2 gph nozzle (post TB) and a 4 gph nozzle (post FMIC) on my meth setup and it ran fine once I had the controller adjusted. I did change the tune to account for it after I got it all setup how I wanted though.

Here's my install:
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...t=snow+stage+2

Cool, I have a pretty similar setup right now with a 175ml/min post-TB and a 225 post-FMIC. I want to go with a 100/375 setup but every 100 nozzle I've purchased has had borked threads (a common problem with Snow nozzles apparently, had them all refunded no q's asked. Never even had to ship any of em back. Apparently there was a 'bad batch' a 'while ago').

My main goal with this kit is to have my car perform on 100 degree days just as it does on 30 degree days. I have tasted how my car pulls in cold weather and I can't go back. I have a Eurodyne tune so I can make/edit maps and flash tunes at will, so I figure I'll do a little boost/timing tune for it so I can go nuts at the track, but have it run the base non-meth tune around town where I do 99% of my driving. Does these expectations sound realistic based on your experiences with your setup you were running, pre and post tune?

[aluthman]

A good meth kit will help the car perform better without a doubt on hot days. I don't think I could drive my car without meth anymore, it's that good. I thought about the dual tune thing since I also do my own tuning in Maestro, but it just seemed like too much work to go slower most of the time. I just rune my balls to the walls tune all the time.

[MrWalker]

Nice set up. I started reading a little a few years ago on the water/meth injections and just wasn't able to understand the process. Your set up looks very well planned out. Gonna have to look into it again.


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[Okedokey]

Pretty sure its illegal in Oz, however its still very interesting! NIce engine bay too btw. Is that the IE valve cover?

[jonjon88ss]

Its the Eurojet valve cover, solved my pcv issues and looks dope af behind the red coils when you polish it up. Ive been running this into an atmosphere vented catch can for about 3 years, love it, my intercooler has almost zero oil in it now.

The DO1 is 1.41gph in the TB and the DO2 nozzle flows 2.83 gph. I figured id start out small since im only ko3, and just raise the pump pressure higher if i needed more flow.
I'm using 2 solenoids on each nozzle because:
1. The controller sends a pulsed ground signal to the pump turning it on/off rapidly as a way to modulate its output as the boost ramps up. I put a solenoid in line wired to the same ground. the solenoid now opens and shuts providing a more accurate flow modulation.
2. Check valves rob 15psi from your pump output and act as an uneeded restriction causing uneeded wear and tear on the pumps life. They crack open at 15psi, but at idle I pull way more vacuum than that. This also prevents unwanted siphoning during high vacuum situations. They also provide maximum atomization during the low pump pulses.
3. Most importantly, it allows me to have each nozzle open at a different pressure. The Intercooler nozzle solenoid is wired straight up with the pump, so whenever that pump kicks on it starts spraying to cool the air. Inline from that same ground signal wire goes to a separate adjustable Hobbs switch shown in that pic above which is set to around 13 psi. This dosent allow the TB to start spraying till it hits that pressure. I can start cooling the air sooner and not drown the motor out at part throttle when the boost creeps up during normal driving.
I use 93 octane fuel with the JHM 93 Tune, there are a handful of sensors that will recognize the super cold inlet air temps and octane boost and will automatically adjust timing and air fuel to compensate when the meth starts spraying......to a point, whatever the max allowable range that tune will allow it to go. Yes I'm not getting the full potential of the water/meth this way but if anything happens like you said, I don't blow anything up. I'm using this as like a "lil boost for my boost". Someday... if JHM ever releases their 100 octane file, I plan on rolling that dice a little bit because I know my setup is reliable as long as i can keep my tanks full.

[aluthman]

Just get a bigger tank, mine is 4 gallons

[lettuce]

Its the Eurojet valve cover, solved my pcv issues and looks dope af behind the red coils when you polish it up. Ive been running this into an atmosphere vented catch can for about 3 years, love it, my intercooler has almost zero oil in it now.
The DO1 is 1.41gph in the TB and the DO2 nozzle flows 2.83 gph. I figured id start out small since im only ko3, and just raise the pump pressure higher if i needed more flow.
I'm using 2 solenoids on each nozzle because:
1. The controller sends a pulsed ground signal to the pump turning it on/off rapidly as a way to modulate its output as the boost ramps up. I put a solenoid in line wired to the same ground. the solenoid now opens and shuts providing a more accurate flow modulation.
2. Check valves rob 15psi from your pump output and act as an uneeded restriction causing uneeded wear and tear on the pumps life. They crack open at 15psi, but at idle I pull way more vacuum than that. This also prevents unwanted siphoning during high vacuum situations. They also provide maximum atomization during the low pump pulses.
3. Most importantly, it allows me to have each nozzle open at a different pressure. The Intercooler nozzle solenoid is wired straight up with the pump, so whenever that pump kicks on it starts spraying to cool the air. Inline from that same ground signal wire goes to a separate adjustable Hobbs switch shown in that pic above which is set to around 13 psi. This dosent allow the TB to start spraying till it hits that pressure. I can start cooling the air sooner and not drown the motor out at part throttle when the boost creeps up during normal driving.
I use 93 octane fuel with the JHM 93 Tune, there are a handful of sensors that will recognize the super cold inlet air temps and octane boost and will automatically adjust timing and air fuel to compensate when the meth starts spraying......to a point, whatever the max allowable range that tune will allow it to go. Yes I'm not getting the full potential of the water/meth this way but if anything happens like you said, I don't blow anything up. I'm using this as like a "lil boost for my boost". Someday... if JHM ever releases their 100 octane file, I plan on rolling that dice a little bit because I know my setup is reliable as long as i can keep my tanks full.

Awesome, thanks for the info. Especially about the TB solenoid, I just may have to look into doing something similar myself.

[Older_not_Wiser]

Details on where you obtained the Hobbs switch and how the start flowing PSI is set on that. Also, is the second selenoid tied in to the Hobbs switch wiring to allow it ti flow at that same PSI? Curious on the connections.

http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant...&Store_Code=tp
This one?

[rongeur]

I will chew through a tank in a week with just some spirited driving on normal
Commute, I may need to upgrade to larger tank as well

[jonjon88ss]

I used this one
http://www.usrallyteam.com/index.php...oducts_id=1900
They're heavy duty and allow 2 amps of juice to run through them to power the solenoid. I'm probably going to add a third tank this summer hidden above the pump in the little trunk cubby thing. Going to just leave it sealed and tee in to the supply and vent lines in there. It should fill remotely when i fill the other 2.
Both solenoids have 12v power going to one side all the time. Both solenoid ground wires are connected to the same ground wire going to the pump. The pump also has 12v going to it all the time. The Hobbs switch is ran inline to the TB solenoid on the ground wire going to all 3, causing a delay until it opens to get its pulsating ground signal from the controller.

[A4 Lemon]

I ran straight alcohol on my Buick GN. The whole point of water/meth/alky is to get more boost and timing. The added timing is where the real power lies. Now you can start adding more and more timing and you'll be shocked what you can get out of it. If I remember correctly, I was able to add another 10 degrees (which is huge on a forced induction motor) and another 10ish psi. Great job on your install!

[jonjon88ss]

UPDATE
Tanks ran low the other day so had to turn the kit off. The car became insanely slow, fully confirming my addiction to this stuff. I switched my mixture from 50/50, to 40% water and 60% meth now. The car is a little faster now with this mixture, so ill stick with it until it gets hotter in the summer months where I'll try the 50/50 again. current settings are spray start 10psi full spray 17 psi. TB solenoid set to open around 14 psi. JHM stage 2 93 tune peaking 19 psi



One car in this video with similar parts is using 100+ octane and ran a 13.3, so I'm assuming I'm somewhere around that number with my little Tiptronic. Anyone here going to dubs on defrost next week?

[martin0079]

nice setup! i have mine in the trunk too.

im gonna get a 2nd tank smart idea! rs4 drinks a good amount of meth.

edit: wait till summer, youll notice a huge improvement. when i had it on my b7a4 no heat strrokes

I have a 1gal AEM tank hanging around if you're interested.

UPDATE
Tanks ran low the other day so had to turn the kit off. The car became insanely slow, fully confirming my addiction to this stuff. I switched my mixture from 50/50, to 40% water and 60% meth now. The car is a little faster now with this mixture, so ill stick with it until it gets hotter in the summer months where I'll try the 50/50 again. current settings are spray start 10psi full spray 17 psi. TB solenoid set to open around 14 psi. JHM stage 2 93 tune peaking 19 psi



One car in this video with similar parts is using 100+ octane and ran a 13.3, so I'm assuming I'm somewhere around that number with my little Tiptronic. Anyone here going to dubs on defrost next week?

How are you mixing your solution?

[jerseybrian]

May I ask where you got that sweet little bracket that you attached to the alternator bolt for the meth line to feed through?

[jonjon88ss]

I have a 2.5 gallon gas can. I pour 1 gallon of methanol in then 1 gallon of distilled water. Now i pour in about a solo cup worth of methanol on top of both gallons then shake it up.

The bracket is attached to the back of the solenoid. Its a nitrous express w/m solenoid if you want to get the same one, they're like 50 bucks on summit racing. Just remember they're marked 1 and 2 on the inlet and outlet. 2 is inlet 1 is outlet. The bolt attaching it is from a hardware store so i could sneak a wrench behind it to tighten it. Gives it a clean non flashy look

[lettuce]

Was able to add over a mph to my best trap speed with the new meth setup without even tuning for it yet (107.68 - 108.73). Really excited to see what it can do with some more timing and boost. Went through a half gallon though in 5 passes. Thinking I'm spraying too much. Does that sound like a lot?

[rickescazu]

I used this one
http://www.usrallyteam.com/index.php...oducts_id=1900
They're heavy duty and allow 2 amps of juice to run through them to power the solenoid. I'm probably going to add a third tank this summer hidden above the pump in the little trunk cubby thing. Going to just leave it sealed and tee in to the supply and vent lines in there. It should fill remotely when i fill the other 2.
Both solenoids have 12v power going to one side all the time. Both solenoid ground wires are connected to the same ground wire going to the pump. The pump also has 12v going to it all the time. The Hobbs switch is ran inline to the TB solenoid on the ground wire going to all 3, causing a delay until it opens to get its pulsating ground signal from the controller.

can i ask which controller and model that your using? seems the DO is a MAP controlled unit and the SNOW is MAF. i want to do a similar set up to yours but don't want to make a mistake on the controller side.

thanks
Rick
Costa Rica

[vortexjunkie]

can i ask which controller and model that your using? seems the DO is a MAP controlled unit and the SNOW is MAF. i want to do a similar set up to yours but don't want to make a mistake on the controller side.

thanks
Rick
Costa Rica

This would be a good option for you right here: JHM-Devilsown Water-Methanol Injection Kit for B7-A4 2.0Tl

This is what i have running in my car and LOVE IT! Really helps out here in the 100+ Degree weather.

[rickescazu]

This would be a good option for you right here: JHM-Devilsown Water-Methanol Injection Kit for B7-A4 2.0Tl

This is what i have running in my car and LOVE IT! Really helps out here in the 100+ Degree weather.

thanks for the reference, are you using the WW res? that product says .0-5.v controller from DO but somewhere in the vortex forums on the Golf mk6 (also 2.0L FSI) i thought i read that our MAF sensor is a HZ not voltage output is that incorrect?

[vortexjunkie]

thanks for the reference, are you using the WW res? that product says .0-5.v controller from DO but somewhere in the vortex forums on the Golf mk6 (also 2.0L FSI) i thought i read that our MAF sensor is a HZ not voltage output is that incorrect?

Different cars send different signals. I am 100% Using the MAP to get my signal like the instructions state to do. I also used the WW Res as my tank. I mounted the pump on the frame rail so its low and slightly hidden but not obnoxious to look at or see in the engine bay.

[jerseybrian]

thanks for the reference, are you using the WW res? that product says .0-5.v controller from DO but somewhere in the vortex forums on the Golf mk6 (also 2.0L FSI) i thought i read that our MAF sensor is a HZ not voltage output is that incorrect?

The DO kit taps into the 5V green signal wire off the MAP sensor located before the TB. It does not wire into the MAF at all.

Different cars send different signals. I am 100% Using the MAP to get my signal like the instructions state to do. I also used the WW Res as my tank. I mounted the pump on the frame rail so its low and slightly hidden but not obnoxious to look at or see in the engine bay.

Exactly the way I have it!

[rickescazu]

The DO kit taps into the 5V green signal wire off the MAP sensor located before the TB. It does not wire into the MAF at all.



Exactly the way I have it!

Thanks weird DO replied saying I should get the 5v controller to use with MAF, which is how I thought Adam did it. But you used a map version from DO and works fine. Good to know I'm getting my order ready to copy what Adam did but using a boost activated TB spray and 2 solenoids no check valves. So u use the WW Res? I can't find the size of that so was thinking to also buy a cheap tank from usplastics also.
Thanks
Rick


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[jonjon88ss]

I have the devils own progressive controller (dv-30 i think). Because boost starts to fall as RPMS rise with the lil ko3, the MAF one will work better overall.... but i wasen't trying to tap into any voltage sensitive wires that controlled my engine. The vw guys say there's a slight draw that affects the readings or whatever. I chose to go with a boost controlled controller. I tapped into the boost line going to my boost gauge, and ran a line inside the car under the steering wheel to the controller. I wedge my controller in the slit by your knees where the manual i guess goes. I left slack so i can pull it out to my lap at red lights and adjust it. It wedges in there perfect so you can see the lights out of the corner of your eye, but dosent blind you at night, its so mint, Ill take a pic of it soon.
It makes me very happy seeing JHM finally playing with meth on our motor, would be dope AF if they released some kind of meth specific file....wink wink

[jonjon88ss]

Was able to add over a mph to my best trap speed with the new meth setup without even tuning for it yet (107.68 - 108.73). Really excited to see what it can do with some more timing and boost. Went through a half gallon though in 5 passes. Thinking I'm spraying too much. Does that sound like a lot?

What size nozzles are you running? Thats quite a bit for only 60-80 seconds of spray time ( 5 passes @ 12.6). Maybe your siphoning under high vacuum when your decelerating and sucking past the pump and checkvalve/solenoid? When you let off the gas, does it backfire and pop on you?

[aluthman]

Thanks weird DO replied saying I should get the 5v controller to use with MAF, which is how I thought Adam did it. But you used a map version from DO and works fine. Good to know I'm getting my order ready to copy what Adam did but using a boost activated TB spray and 2 solenoids no check valves. So u use the WW Res? I can't find the size of that so was thinking to also buy a cheap tank from usplastics also.
Thanks
Rick


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I do indeed have my controller wired to my MAF, but I am running a Snow controller. That's the only Snow part I am running really. I would recommend the DO/JHM controller if you want to use boost input with your controller.

[rickescazu]

I do indeed have my controller wired to my MAF, but I am running a Snow controller. That's the only Snow part I am running really. I would recommend the DO/JHM controller if you want to use boost input with your controller.

I don't have a boost tap now but guess I have to add one to use a boost pressure Hobbs switch to turn on a second solenoid for the TB spray. Seems we have two votes for the MAF control point, one for MAP and one for boost pressure. But is anyone sure what the signal is from the MAP or MAF sensor is it a scaled 5v or a Hz response over a range. I'll be using a hybrid k03/04 think KoR so which is best really as that's not a BT still.
Thanks guys with experience.


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[rickescazu]

ok i did some digging on the MAP sensor and it is a 5v range (2.5 or 3 bar versions). i cannot find any detail not eh MAF to know if it is frequency or 5V sensor, but can guys that know for sure chime in on which is the best method of control for w/m and why.

lots of VW guys say boost is best, other say small turbos better on MAF and other seem to think K03/04 is best on MAP. there must be some real logic behind the choice and why. i want to order my stuff and get started on this but still stuck on which controller to use. prefer not to do boost really don't want to run those lines inside the car.

thanks for any and all input.

rick

[aluthman]

But is anyone sure what the signal is from the MAP or MAF sensor is it a scaled 5v or a Hz response over a range. I'll be using a hybrid k03/04 think KoR so which is best really as that's not a BT still.
Thanks guys with experience.

MAP is 0.5-5v output and the MAF output is in Hz. I ran MAF based with my K0R and had no issues whatsoever. I may need to convert to MAP based after installing my EFR, but we'll see.

[rickescazu]

Dude,
running a tiny boost line into your car is really no big deal compared to what your going to have to do to spray meth in your engine. At the top of this page is a link to a thread that will answer all your questions. If you stay small turbo, MAF will work better, read the thread to see why. If you go big turbo, Boost controlled will be better, read the thread to see why. Honestly, you dont need my hobbs switch add on if you stay small turbo, as its purpose is to allow you to run a larger than normal nozzle for peak power under peak boost, without drowning the motor out under low boost. For more info on this, search said above thread for the words "boost trigga". A guy from USRT explains the whole technique on there. All this reading and trouble your going through is worth it, you're going to love it

I actually read that link and about 3 other long ones on vwvortex mostly are sponsored by USRT or BSH so you get their ideas and perspective based on what they selling. Yes I see they say boost for BT and MAF for small but don't see any logic or arguments behind that. I'm using a hybrid k03/04 think KoR but slightly bigger compressor billet wheel. Also looking at the response curves of MAF and MAP the second is much more linear. The Hobbs was to delay spraying into the post TB spacer until higher boost for octane benefit. Although Adam seems ok with both running together.


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[rickescazu]

MAP is 0.5-5v output and the MAF output is in Hz. I ran MAF based with my K0R and had no issues whatsoever. I may need to convert to MAP based after installing my EFR, but we'll see.

Adam I just found an article on the B7 MAP (seems both Bosch and Pierburg) made them for B7 and both say 5v output. The Bosch number or VW is 06D906461. Seems to match mine 5 pin. But I've read on forums that newer cars are frequency output. How did you determine its in HZ.
Also looking at the response curves of MAF and map, voltage is more linear response on map. Do you see any issues draw back to using one over the other? Isn't boost determined from the MAP anyway? DO lists a 2.5 bar map set up but they haven't answered if it's hz or volts. Kind of thinking Hz since they also have a 5 volts controller.


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[vortexjunkie]

The DO kit taps into the 5V green signal wire off the MAP sensor located before the TB. It does not wire into the MAF at all.



Exactly the way I have it!

[aluthman]

Adam I just found an article on the B7 MAP (seems both Bosch and Pierburg) made them for B7 and both say 5v output. The Bosch number or VW is 06D906461. Seems to match mine 5 pin. But I've read on forums that newer cars are frequency output. How did you determine its in HZ.
Also looking at the response curves of MAF and map, voltage is more linear response on map. Do you see any issues draw back to using one over the other? Isn't boost determined from the MAP anyway? DO lists a 2.5 bar map set up but they haven't answered if it's hz or volts. Kind of thinking Hz since they also have a 5 volts controller.


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MAP reads boost and has a varying voltage output from 0.5v to 5v. MAF (at least in my B7, but probably in all of them) does not give off a varying voltage output and therefore gives a Hz output. Check the wires coming off the MAF with a voltmeter while someone revs the engine to verify this. Voltage doesn't change. EPY had a thread on this a couple years ago, although I can't remember what it was titled. One big reason MAP is used in BT setups is that quite a few people do not run MAFs and instead run a speed-density tune. The response of either MAP or MAF readings will be highly dependent on the turbo you are running. If the DO controller has it's own 2.5 bar MAP sensor, you just route a vacuum hose to it from the manifold. It doesn't matter how it does the output because it's all internal to the controller.

[rongeur]

The MAF is in Hz for the 2.0T - the Snow Performance MAFU is able to be selected for this option. I set my W/M up for MAF since I was using a K03 at that time and the boost peak and taper character of the stock turbo prevents a steady increase in flow using the MAP signal, whereas the MAF is a progressive signal for the controller to read. Now that I am BT, I still have it as MAF because I am too lazy to undue all my splicing of the harness to switch to MAP. If I was installing on a BY car from the start, I would go with the MAP.

[jerseybrian]

Are you guys throwing some teflon tape on the nozzle threads before installing them? Or just raw dawgin' it? :)

[aluthman]

I used some ARP liquid teflon thread sealant.