Meth Injection for 4.0T?

[Chris Morales]

All this talk of race fuel tunes and emptying the tank has me feening for meth. Has anyone put together a setup on this platform or otherwise worked towards this?

Looking at my S8 motor, I have trouble finding a good spot where I would tap the meth injectors. I wouldn't do that pre-intercooler, and tracking the intake plumbing after the intercooler is difficult. There appears to be a manifold right after the intercooler that wraps around the front of the block to each bank. Really hard to access, probably really expensive, and probably easy to really mess up. This isn't your typical charge pipe setup as with an air/air intercooled car. But I really think meth would unlock a lot on this car (given that E85 is not an option now). I'd look at converting the washer fluid tank into the meth tank.

[Brooklyn]

You've just gone way over my head. Can you describe, in terms my 9 year old might understand, exactly how a meth setup works? If you convert the washer fluid tank, assume you would completely lose the washer fluid capability?

[richib86]

washer fluid actually has methanol in it so you "can" use it. it is def more abrasive though since its not diluted with other detergents.

[CR8LUCK]

I've gone down this path to the point of exhaustion. First of all, after visiting multiple shops who say they can do it, 4 to be exact, not a single one has followed up leading me to believe they lack confidence. I've spoken with the top 2 manufacturers of meth kits and neither knows anything about this engine and just say that it should show improvement.

I've also spoken with the tuning companies and nobody has a tune to take advantage of the lower temp benefits. Without this, you will get minimal results depending on the environment temps. To get a custom tune would likely require you to leave your car with the software company until they could get around to it and have your installer nearby to assist.

I think that meth would provide some big gains, but finding a reliable shop to do it that hasn't just done it on VW's, and then getting a software company to write a custom file, is going to be a hassle.

FYI, cost to install and dial in the meth will be about $1,000 plus the kit for a basic install. If you don't want to be filling up in-between stops then you'll need a bigger tank and some custom fab work.

Let me know if you work through all of this and get it done.


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[richib86]

You can also just run the 104 map to reap a good majority of the benefits of meth injection

[CR8LUCK]

You can also just run the 104 map to reap a good majority of the benefits of meth injection

That's not what the tuning companies say. The other issue is if you run out of meth and are still running it you can cause damage to your engine quickly.

[richib86]

All the b8 guys that are running meth are running on canned 100+ octane files. I've had meth on audis before and constantly monitoring the tank is a pain in the ass. many people just use the washer reservoir since it has a level sensor in it to let you know when to top up

[Chris Morales]

You've just gone way over my head. Can you describe, in terms my 9 year old might understand, exactly how a meth setup works? If you convert the washer fluid tank, assume you would completely lose the washer fluid capability?

Meth systems are a common mod in many forced induction setups. The system places an injector (or two) in the air intake of the engine to spray a mixture of methanol and water once a certain threshold of boost is exceeded. The methanol/water retards combustion and can effectively increase the octane rating of the fuel (i.e., pump gas) to over 110 and will cool (and clean) the combustion chambers. This allows you to run more aggressive tune (more timing and/or more boost) without the need for race gas. The water in the methanol prevents the mixture from being flammable, but some people inject pure methanol for enhanced performance. Systems can get complicated with progressive methanol controllers, multiple injectors, and multiple pumps, but generally the concept and installation are simple. If you can install a car stereo system, I think you can install a meth system.

A meth system will work fine as a substitute for race gas with a race gas tune. I've done this on other cars with good results, as have many others. It's simply a way of increasing octane, and it would reach a level above that needed for the new 104 stage 2 tunes (with cooling to boot). The one issue is making sure meth is spraying as the motor reaches high boost. That's often addressed by tuning and integration with a meth flow sensor; if sufficient flow is not detected, the computer does not allow high boost/timing advance. I think this kind of fail safe concern is what the tuners must be talking about. But I would be fine with a boost switch for the meth and limited use of the race gas programs when I know the meth system is flowing. I would not try to use it all over the place and run the race gas tune everywhere (and I'd have a tank level sensor, anyway). All of this is better than trying to empty the last drop of pump gas from the car so you can use a 104 tune.

[Chris Morales]

Can anyone shed any light on the intake plumbing after the intercooler? A schematic would be good.

[kouzman]

You can also run meth injection with even the stock map, but only for its cooling properties. Just use small jets... the 4.0tt platform has so complicated plumbing that makes it almost impossible to upgrade. Although the benefit might not be there during the winter or in cold climates, in hotter climates using meth as temp control van greatly benefit... I know a few shops in Europe that have successfully used meth injection on custom tunes. But Noone in the US...

I think it would be beneficial especially for roll racing or half mile events when you stay at WOT for long periods of time.

Old school approach too is to spray, pre-turbo. Many people still use this approach. I have seen a few mustangs and corvettes with such setup... for the 40tt plumbing this could be the easiest solution...

[Sean@APR]

I've also spoken with the tuning companies and nobody has a tune to take advantage of the lower temp benefits.

If the tune is built correctly, it will automatically take advantage of the lower temperatures. Ours will work that way.

[Sean@APR]

You can also just run the 104 map to reap a good majority of the benefits of meth injection

That's not what the tuning companies say. The other issue is if you run out of meth and are still running it you can cause damage to your engine quickly.

<Speaking as APR>
Don't run meth. If you have an issue with the tank, pump, injectors, anything, you run a real risk of turning your very expensive twin turbo V8 engine into a boat anchor. Especially don't run meth with the 104 tune, because it's intended for use with oxygenated fuels.

Meth kills (engines).
A meth kit is the first step to a built short block.
</APR>

<Speaking as Sean, speed junky and car enthusiast>
These are definitely gains to be had running meth. You'll have to dial it in carefully, I'd recommend an APR mobile dongle for fast logging and a thorough, careful adjustment period. Once you've got it dialed in, you should be able to run the 100 file, get no knock and kick some serious butt.

Don't try it on the 104 file, use the 100 file and 93 octane gas. Don't use the 100 file and 91 octane. If you live in a 91 octane area, use the 93 file.

Using the washer tank is great, as mentioned before, due to the built in indicator.

[Chris Morales]

Yeah, that air collector box on the front of the block is what I am looking at. Gotta remove that to modify it, and that might be crazy. Don't want to mess with that piece at all. I can't tell if there is something after the cooler but before the collector box. Gotta have sturdy bungs for the meth nozzles.

You sure the TB is just after the cooler? Looks just before. Spraying before the cooler won't do on this platform I am afraid.

The best approach might be to insert a custom separator pipe between the cooler and the collector box (if possible). The bungs would be in the new pipe. Probably would need special brackets for the cooler then.

The best fabricator in Texas owns a shop and the fastest GTR in the country. That dude and his people could definitely make this system. I'll pursue this with him at some point if no one else figures this out. Later maybe APR could do something like BMS does with meth flow sensor integration in BMW tuning.

[F16HTON]

I think a direct injection setup (8 nozzles) on the intake manifolds would be the best setup if someone were to do this.

[Chris Morales]

I think the flow is turbos-->t/b-->intercooler.

[kouzman]

Bump.

The sequence is correct. Turbos to tb to cooler.

Interestingly i raced last weekend with a bunch of f10 m5 and e63 amg and many were using meth injection.

The m5 in particular has the same order where the throttle bodies are before the cooler. I was told no I'll effects whatsoever. But they are not really using it to run a more aggressive map but mostly to improve cooling efficiency.

If I proceed with the install, I will still use the 93 map on 93 fuel and the 100 map on 100+ octane fuel. My plan is to spray a minimum amount to assist with the intake temps since racing in 80 and 90 degrees weather, the car really underperformed especially when hot lapping.

The setup should be very easy to install since all we need is a few couplers to house the injectors and wiring and setup of the controller and tank.

For example we can set it up to start spraying at 15 psi and full spray above 25 psi. After finishing racing I would disarm the system and boost the car before I shut down to ensure no residual is left over in the cooling system...

[lnferno]

All the b8 guys that are running meth are running on canned 100+ octane files. I've had meth on audis before and constantly monitoring the tank is a pain in the ass. many people just use the washer reservoir since it has a level sensor in it to let you know when to top up

Yup - did this with my B5 S4. Even the B5 S4 had the sensor for when the reservoir was low. Man, I miss that car. That car was faster than my current Stage I S6.

[tonymission]

Solo Motorsports here in Atlanta did a meth setup on my buddy Domenic's RS7. He produced more horsepower than I did when I was stage 1 based on the Mustang but my car put down more torque. We went to the track and he was having some suspension related issues/faults so we never really got to see the full potential of his car. He put down a couple 11.2s with a custom tune but that had more to do with the faults he was dealing with than anything else IMO.


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[kouzman]

Let me tell you. Heat is a bitch! I was running last weekend at etown. The car was boiling. I was 2-3 mph of my traps first time I saw my oil reaching 225-230 degrees.

Most of the guys were on meth and a shitload of ice. The only thing I could do is spraying the radiators with water to help with the cool down...

Meth/water injection in such conditions would be the difference between winning and losing. Plus I estimate that the car would pickup some power too... the cooling system was designed to be effective at 17-18 psi boost pressures. Not close to 30!

The bigger radiator for the RS7 from Forge might also help.

[HeelBuff]

Heat and humidity are oppressive here, so I won't bother going to the track until at least September. I figure there's no need for meth if I wait until the night time temps are in the 60s or cooler.

[sonjh81]

I've seen some rs7 w/ meth kit around here. But they spend more time in the shop rather than roads.

[sabreofsd]

I ran 50/50 water/meth on my STI for years. I was running a standalone EMS (Hydra), which could switch maps when it detected a fault (clogged jet, no flow, empty tank, etc.). It was a great system! The only problems I encountered were more frequent oil changes (about every 2500 miles) because it was causing quicker break down of the oil (as shown through Blackstone analysis). During rebuilds of my built motor (about every 50k), the engine remained remarkably clean (pistons and valves). I ran a leaner AFR (12:1 instead of 11:1) under boost and increased timing 2-3 degree's almost across the board. That added up to about 50WHP and made it very resilient to knock. I ran two jets post intercooler (There are lost of discussions to be had on where you run the jets...) about 6" from the throttle body for even mixing. Aquamist was the manufacturer of the WI system.

[smokey24]

I've been looking into watermeth as well. The intake manifolds don't look very doable. Maybe but they are so short and stubby. The runners are like 1 inch long total. Everything is compact and narrow. I'm gonna have to look into this farther. I am gonna measure a couple things and was thinking about tapping the front of the manifold charge pipes. If there's room to clear the radiator. 3 nozzles maybe in each pipe 75cc each, maybe 50cc. Can't spray too. Big of nozzles I don't think because it's a pancake pipe and not enough room for dispersal.

I will buy a spare pipe and tap into it. Sucks tho. The pipe is 340 dollars. Lol sure hope I don't go through 2 of them. Lol.

[Mcdxb]

I'm based in Dubai where temps reach 50 degrees I the summer and I'm running an Rs6, stage 2 right now.

I'd like to plan ahead and stay cool for when the summer months come.

I didn't really find much on the market in terms of a better role bigger intercooler so I've started researching the aquamist.

My tuner stands by it and says it's very good.

Any advice on an rs6 and aquamist?

Its a daily runner.

Cheers

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[Cam.CL.S7]

THREAD REVIVAL!! Any new developments stateside on meth injection on the 4.0t platform? If E85 tunes were available we wouldn't need to have meth :( not sure if there is enough headroom in our fuel systems to support corn as it stands stock.

[cobrario]

THREAD REVIVAL!! Any new developments stateside on meth injection on the 4.0t platform? If E85 tunes were available we wouldn't need to have meth :( not sure if there is enough headroom in our fuel systems to support corn as it stands stock.

I've logged up E26 and found no issues on stock fueling- I've been told up to E30 is possible with no fueling upgrades- I will be testing that soon and will report back my results. As for meth, what are you interested in knowing? I can tell you that several are on the path and definitive results will be forthcoming soon.

[low-profile]

There is a more recent thread here:
https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...e-people-using



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