troubles after frankenturo install

[thomastollar]

Hey All,

so over the weekend I installed the frankenturbo kit, 034 HFC, and Billy Boat stealth on a 2005 b6 a4, Also changed the timing belt. The car is now idling very rough...so bad that I am afraid to drive it. My mechanic has looked over everything...says the timing is fine (compression seems good). He was wondering if the ECU could be the culprit. Anyone had a problem like this? is an ECU flash necessary to smooth things back out after these mods? Thanks.

[SJorge3442]

Hey All,

so over the weekend I installed the frankenturbo kit, 034 HFC, and Billy Boat stealth on a 2005 b6 a4, Also changed the timing belt. The car is now idling very rough...so bad that I am afraid to drive it. My mechanic has looked over everything...says the timing is fine (compression seems good). He was wondering if the ECU could be the culprit. Anyone had a problem like this? is an ECU flash necessary to smooth things back out after these mods? Thanks.

Wait. So you installed a frakenturbo without the supporting ECU tune? These kits get sold as a full package for a reason. Did you upgrade injectors too?

[AudiSport12]

The ECU should adapt to modifications albeit not run the best. I drove 300 miles with my F21 kit installed with no tune and no issues. Ran rough at first but smoothed out after.

I'm betting you have something else wrong. I would suggest pulling codes and checking fi you've got a bad misfire.

[vjborelli]

Hey All,

so over the weekend I installed the frankenturbo kit, 034 HFC, and Billy Boat stealth on a 2005 b6 a4, Also changed the timing belt. The car is now idling very rough...so bad that I am afraid to drive it. My mechanic has looked over everything...says the timing is fine (compression seems good). He was wondering if the ECU could be the culprit. Anyone had a problem like this? is an ECU flash necessary to smooth things back out after these mods? Thanks.

An ECU tune is required for the Frankenturbo kit for a few reasons.

1. If you installed the larger fuel injectors that come with the kit, there are quite a few constants/maps that need to be changed to reflect the increased fuel delivery.

2. The stock wastegate starts to opens at something around 2-3psi if I'm not mistaken, while the Frankenturbo wastegate starts to open at 8psi. So there are quite a few constants/maps that need adjusting for the N75 controller, or else you're going to start over-boosting like crazy and melt metal from lean AFR

Sent from my Nexus 6

[thomastollar]

thanks for the responses....I did not upgrade injectors nor the tune (the kit did not include). It is definitely misfiring...I was thinking coil packs or spark plugs, but both are relatively new. vacuum system seems pretty solid too.

[texasboy21]

thanks for the responses....I did not upgrade injectors nor the tune (the kit did not include). It is definitely misfiring...I was thinking coil packs or spark plugs, but both are relatively new. vacuum system seems pretty solid too.

Scan the car for codes, log some third gear pulls, get a proper tune, and go from there. Do you have a boost gauge? Its a good idea to get one, its a great diagnostic tool.

[diagnosticator]

An ECU tune is required for the Frankenturbo kit for a few reasons.

1. If you installed the larger fuel injectors that come with the kit, there are quite a few constants/maps that need to be changed to reflect the increased fuel delivery.

2. The stock wastegate starts to opens at something around 2-3psi if I'm not mistaken, while the Frankenturbo wastegate starts to open at 8psi. So there are quite a few constants/maps that need adjusting for the N75 controller, or else you're going to start over-boosting like crazy and melt metal from lean AFR

The N75 does not allow any boost pressure to be applied to the wastegate actuator until just before the max boost pressure setpoint occurs according to the Requested boost pressure. Therefore the wastegate is prevented from creeping open early wasting exhaust gas energy that is needed to spool up the turbo as quickly as possible. Since the boost pressure setpoint is above the default boost pressure determined by the actuator spring tension, when the control boost pressure is applied to the wastegate from the N75, the actuator opens the wastegate quickly, controlling boost pressure increase above setpoint. Not having an ECU tune, running the stock files, does not cause random malfunctions, the operation of the FT should be similar to the stock turbo.

[crazyquik22023]

Im betting the timing is off.

[customa4]

Im betting the timing is off.

That's where my money is. OP get the top timing belt cover off, line up the crank and cam and take some pictures to post here.

Step 1: Carefully remove upper t-belt cover. It just unclips.
Step 2: get engine to TDC

This is where it being a manual car makes this super easy. Just stick it in top gear (5th or 6th, depending on how awesome you are), and push the car forward. Out of room? Select neutral and push it back. On a hill? Well...that sucks, I can't help you. The mark on the camshaft (that's the top one!) is what you want to watch here. Get that to be approaching 12 o'clock. That's where the mark is on the valve cover.

Once that is "close", start looking at the crankshaft. You want to get the pulley mark lined up with the "divot" on the metal cover. Look closely:



Step 4: Once the crank is at exactly TDC, look at your camshaft again. If the timing is perfect, you'll see this:



If the marks are way off, you got problems.

If you're still looking for Step 3...just consider that a Beer step and move on.

[ECS Tuning-Audi]

Probably a vacuum leak somewhere. Do you have a boost gauge installed? If so and you have a vac leak you'll notice you wont be pulling as much vac at idle. This can make idling very rough.

Double check you have all your hoses tight, breather tubes going to the right places etc.

Jason

[Seerlah]

Did you install the maf provided with the kit or still run the stock one?

[thomastollar]

MAF was not included....they did provide a rubber sleeve to match up the OEM MAF to the new Turbo Inlet Pipe

[Furly]

You bought a Franken turbo kit that came without anything the kit is supposed to come with ? Where did you buy this?
Unless you got it used, you're missing lots of key components.

Basically your car is saying "wtf is going on"

[PreciseD]

Your first mistake was buying a frankenturbo.

[KHARDa4]

Your first mistake was buying a frankenturbo.

Agree, guy is a tool. I pulled my engine and rebuilt it for his beta turbo. Over and over I got excuses why the turbo wasn't ready until the day je never answered or returned my phone call. I wouldn't recommend anyone buying from FT. I like people to appreciate my business. This guy does not.

[vjborelli]

The N75 does not allow any boost pressure to be applied to the wastegate actuator until just before the max boost pressure setpoint occurs according to the Requested boost pressure. Therefore the wastegate is prevented from creeping open early wasting exhaust gas energy that is needed to spool up the turbo as quickly as possible. Since the boost pressure setpoint is above the default boost pressure determined by the actuator spring tension, when the control boost pressure is applied to the wastegate from the N75, the actuator opens the wastegate quickly, controlling boost pressure increase above setpoint. Not having an ECU tune, running the stock files, does not cause random malfunctions, the operation of the FT should be similar to the stock turbo.

i installed the F21L kit a little over a year ago, minus the injectors and MAF at first.

I can tell you first hand that if the PID controller is not adjusted for the increased wastegate spring pressure, you most certainly do get boost spikes.

At OEM load/boost request, the overboost might not be as wild as what i mentioned.... but on a Stage 1/2 tune load/boost request, you will certainly start hitting mid-to-high 20's.

Scared the hell out of me on my first drive, limped it back home, and started adjusted the PID controller for the N75.

Sent from my Nexus 6

[MetalMan]

You bought a Franken turbo kit that came without anything the kit is supposed to come with ? Where did you buy this?
Unless you got it used, you're missing lots of key components.

What're you talking about? FrankenTurbo kit comes with manifold, turbo, and TIP. Anything else is an add-on and not required for the kit.

[Furly]

What're you talking about? FrankenTurbo kit comes with manifold, turbo, and TIP. Anything else is an add-on and not required for the kit.

My bad then, but I could have swore I saw them being sold with other things as well. So people don't have to guess what to buy. And I also remember them partnering with motoza so you get a tune with the kit. But I could be wrong.

Anyway I agree with PreciseD. If you're going to spend the coin you may as well get something better than a K04 replica. But that's just me.

[AudiSport12]

They do sell other parts (maf, injectors, tune, etc)to accompany this kit. You can select what add-ons you want. If you choose not to purchase the suggested items, you're at your own mercy.

Reason why I went with FT is because it's the best bolt on-and-go kit out there where you don't *have* to open up the motor for rods, etc. Good daily and reliable power.

[PreciseD]

Reason why I went with FT is because it's the cheapest bolt on-and-go kit out there.

FTFY

[customa4]

FrankenTurbo can't be that bad if one of the most reputable members on here(Old Guy) is running one and has nothing but positive things to say about it. Let me guess, he was just lucky, right?

[AudiSport12]

Obviously price point was a factor as well. I'm not trying to break any 1.8t records. This is a 15 year old $3k car. I am more than happy with how it performs for the amount of money I have invested.

[cmiguel32]

FrankenTurbo can't be that bad if one of the most reputable members on here(Old Guy) is running one and has nothing but positive things to say about it. Let me guess, he was just lucky, right?

I've had a pretty great experience with Frankenturbo too. I think it helps when your car has been meticulously maintained.

[SJorge3442]

If I were planning on building a tame street machine out of a 1.8, these new MixedFlows are hard to beat. Pair it with the Motoza tune and injectors and you got yourself a capable car. If the car was worth more money, or if I had more money, clearly I would want to go a different route, but FT makes it too easy. You can slap one of these on in a few hours and after a few tune revisions by Dave at Motoza, you're ready to romp. Building a custom setup requiring a custom tune takes time/money. Some people just don't have that. I also don't know what anyone would go the FT route and NOT do the tune and injectors. Thats like slapping God across the face.

[customa4]

I agree, it should all be done in one shot. But as it's been mentioned in the past, installing a K04 without changing the injectors, the car should run fine. Should be the same in this situation which leads me to believe something else is at fault. OP should be able to run the FrankenTurbo without changing the tune but if it were me, why bother? If the funds weren't there I would just wait until they were to do the whole install in one shot. Not much to gain without the injectors and a proper tune.

[SJorge3442]

I agree, it should all be done in one shot. But as it's been mentioned in the past, installing a K04 without changing the injectors, the car should run fine. Should be the same in this situation which leads me to believe something else is at fault. OP should be able to run the FrankenTurbo without changing the tune but if it were me, why bother? If the funds weren't there I would just wait until they were to do the whole install in one shot. Not much to gain without the injectors and a proper tune.

I agree. I'm also leaning on this being a timing related issue as well. Or a vacuum issue. Both are fairly easy to check.

[texasboy21]

FrankenTurbo can't be that bad if one of the most reputable members on here(Old Guy) is running one and has nothing but positive things to say about it. Let me guess, he was just lucky, right?

The turbo was given to him for testing purposes.

[PreciseD]

The turbo was given to him for testing purposes.

exactly. I bet he would have never bought it otherwise. Plus what if he was given an upgraded or modified version. In testing/R&D they do that often to entice others to buy.

[customa4]

The turbo was given to him for testing purposes.

Given to him for testing purposes for his honest feedback.

exactly. I bet he would have never bought it otherwise. Plus what if he was given an upgraded or modified version. In testing/R&D they do that often to entice others to buy.

You're right, he probably wouldn't have. That has nothing to do with the fact that he has the turbo now and praises it. Are you saying they did the same thing for cmiguel too? He wasn't a test subject.

[Furly]

Obviously price point was a factor as well. I'm not trying to break any 1.8t records. This is a 15 year old $3k car. I am more than happy with how it performs for the amount of money I have invested.

$3k? I paid $13k for my white USP 6spd. And I've spent more than I paid for the car to build it and go BT. You do it for the love of it. If not then buy something else or keep it stock. The age or price of the car doesn't matter. If you're a true enthusiast you build the car you love.

That said. There are other options that make more power and you don't need to "crack open the motor and do rods". There are people on here running turbos twice the size of a FT on stock motors. If the tune is right, and you aren't boosting more than the rods can handle, you can safely run just about anything.

[AudiSport12]

Lol. Furly, I drive a '01 B5 I paid $3500 for. Just because I paid 1/3 of what you paid doesn't mean I don't enjoy it so not sure where you pulled that from. I love the shit out of building and driving my car with a 'measly' K04 hybrid. It fits the ticket of exactly what I wanted for a daily commute. I don't understand why y'all are trying to convince me otherwise?

[Furly]

Lol. Furly, I drive a '01 B5 I paid $3500 for. Just because I paid 1/3 of what you paid doesn't mean I don't enjoy it so not sure where you pulled that from. I love the shit out of building and driving my car with a 'measly' K04 hybrid. It fits the ticket of exactly what I wanted for a daily commute. I don't understand why y'all are trying to convince me otherwise?

Nobody is trying to convince you to do anything. Im simply giving my $0.02 in response of the theory that if a car is not worth much, book value wise these days, that it doesn't make sense to buy better parts for them. In this case he said he wanted a cheap turbo kit because his car was only "worth" $3k. And we are talking b6 here, b5 are worth even less than them today, but that isn't stopping enthusiasts from turning a $5,000 B5 into a 700hp beast and spending easily $30k on it.
It's where your heart is at. If you look at your car as a $3,000 old piece of shit then it's time to buy a new car and have $600/monthly payments ;)

[Furly]

Anywho, @ OP, check these key components out that people suggested and see how the car runs after that. Then report back. We will figure it out it shouldn't be too difficult.

[thomastollar]

still appreciating the feedback. I will say this though, it is a little bit of a bummer when people are negative about this part or that, and start flexing their muscles about how could someone buy this crappy product etc... I get that I do not know as much as you, or have as much experience, but I am trying to have fun with my car and I am trying to learn. I did my homework and am working with the tools at my disposal. I had planned on putting the turbo on and then getting the car tuned. I have now just run into problems with getting the car to the closest tuner, hence the thread, which I started because I would like to learn and because I want my car to be running well.

I will recheck the timing and the vacuum system, and will be sure to post the findings - thanks again

[AudiSport12]

Nobody is trying to convince you to do anything. Im simply giving my $0.02 in response of the theory that if a car is not worth much, book value wise these days, that it doesn't make sense to buy better parts for them. In this case he said he wanted a cheap turbo kit because his car was only "worth" $3k. And we are talking b6 here, b5 are worth even less than them today, but that isn't stopping enthusiasts from turning a $5,000 B5 into a 700hp beast and spending easily $30k on it.
It's where your heart is at. If you look at your car as a $3,000 old piece of shit then it's time to buy a new car and have $600/monthly payments ;)

My car for sure is worth more [to me] than the $3.5k I paid for the car stock. I easily have 2 times that invested in it (as most of us do). I don't necessarily look at it as a $3k piece of shit though and it certainly looks and drives as if it's worth more than that but at the end of the day if it's totaled by some asshat I will probably only get $3k for it lol

still appreciating the feedback. I will say this though, it is a little bit of a bummer when people are negative about this part or that, and start flexing their muscles about how could someone buy this crappy product etc... I get that I do not know as much as you, or have as much experience, but I am trying to have fun with my car and I am trying to learn. I did my homework and am working with the tools at my disposal. I had planned on putting the turbo on and then getting the car tuned. I have now just run into problems with getting the car to the closest tuner, hence the thread, which I started because I would like to learn and because I want my car to be running well.

I will recheck the timing and the vacuum system, and will be sure to post the findings - thanks again

That's what it's all about man. Learn as you go and have fun doing it. Your set up is no where near crappy. Just iron out the bugs and get a tune and you will be more than happy with her!

[PreciseD]

You're right, he probably wouldn't have. That has nothing to do with the fact that he has the turbo now and praises it. Are you saying they did the same thing for cmiguel too? He wasn't a test subject.

Everything I said is speculation, but I've seen enough failures and dirty tricks to know that I wouldn't trust Doug or his turbos.

Maybe things will change, but I doubt it.

[xdewaynex]

I would triple check your timing, scan the ecu, do a throttle body alignment and possibly check your plug gap and packs. Im going on about 5yrs with my Frankenturbo and C2 Motorsports Stage 3 tune and still very pleased with it.

[old guy]

If all you changed out was hardware (turbo, exhaust manifold, TIP and exhaust) your engine should start and idle pretty much the same as it did prior to the installation. As others have mentioned it's probably something simple like a vacuum leak somewhere. I doubt it's a timing issue. Being off one tooth will affect the performance but shouldn't cause an extremely rough idle.

Do you have a way to scan for DTC's and monitor things like fuel trims and MAF g\s's? That can help narrow down where to start.

[thomastollar]

I do have a vag com and can research how to monitor fuel and MAF. - I appreciate the advice. Car is at the mechanics - I am going there tomorrow to get my hands dirty, and plan to try out everything that people are saying here. I will take some photos and post the codes after.

[old guy]

And since I have been referred to several times in this thread I am responding with my comments on the F21L package.

As Tex mentioned, yes I received it for free and installed it myself with the understanding that I would be free to post my impressions, good or bad.

Precise speculated that had it not been free I wouldn't have purchased the kit. Considering my position at the time that would be a true statement. I was approaching 200K miles and had just a few months prior gone through a significant refresh on my engine. I checked oil pressure, fuel pressure, compression, leak down, cooling system pressure etc. Everything was good so I installed a new BW K03 turbo, new TT225 injectors and a Forge TIP. I felt that I was good to go for another 100k miles.

Then the opportunity came along with the prototype F21L mixed flow turbo. I figured what the hell....My engine should be up to it so I took Doug@Frankenturbo up on the offer.

I can certainly see the appeal of such a kit. Not everyone is interested in going Big Turbo and making outlandish power with a 1.8T. That comes with a serious commitment in time, effort and money. If someone is just looking for improved performance that can be had for a weekend project and a moderate expenditure I think this fits the bill.

I had no issues issues with the fit or finish of the hardware. Dave@Motoza's tune was fine right out of the box and has been improved upon since then. I now have 20K miles on the kit and have had zero problems. Everything stills functions as it should.

If I develop any issues with any of the hardware I will inform Doug and post it for others to review. For now all is good.