timing chain marks? or how to set cam chain timing? any PDF?

[WonPointAteTea]

Do either of the cam chains use visual marks to set the timing correctly? I have the motor out of my 2007 S4 and was going to replace the cam adjusters, however I thought it might be a good time to to replace the upper guides for extra piece of mind. Is there a PDF or a good source someone could direct me to about setting the cam chain timing during reassembly. I reeeeeally dont want to get everything back in the car to find I am off a link or tooth. Thank you!

[gcoy]

No they do not. Attached is a pic of the program that I used, ETKA.
You will also need the tools to set the timing

[IMG][/IMG]

[VroomTT]

Crazy question... how many of the guides can be replaced without doing the full timing overhaul?

For example; if I'm doing the clutch and while the trans is out, pop off the rear covers(engine still in car), which of the guides could theoretically just be swapped out for the upgraded versions? Ideally the big ones that commonly break could just be swapped out and covers thrown back on.

Can it be done?

[JimmyBones]

Crazy question... how many of the guides can be replaced without doing the full timing overhaul?

For example; if I'm doing the clutch and while the trans is out, pop off the rear covers(engine still in car), which of the guides could theoretically just be swapped out for the upgraded versions? Ideally the big ones that commonly break could just be swapped out and covers thrown back on.

Can it be done?

I have done timing chain services with the engine still in the car but it is much more involved then just taking the transmission/clutch/flywheel off. I say that because there is a certain order to how the covers for the timing components come off and there is a lot of other stuff that has to come off before you can even get the timing covers off. The lower left guide that always breaks requires the really big lower timing chain cover to be taken off. Which means that everything else is opened up. The camshaft adjusters however can be replaced without taking the transmission off but the whole top of the engine has to come apart.

[VroomTT]

I have done timing chain services with the engine still in the car but it is much more involved then just taking the transmission/clutch/flywheel off. I say that because there is a certain order to how the covers for the timing components come off and there is a lot of other stuff that has to come off before you can even get the timing covers off. The lower left guide that always breaks requires the really big lower timing chain cover to be taken off. Which means that everything else is opened up. The camshaft adjusters however can be replaced without taking the transmission off but the whole top of the engine has to come apart.

Apologies for the thread jack, but this is great info. Right, so assuming trans/clutch/flywheel already off, what's involved to get to that lower left guide? Oil/Coolant drain, Coolant hard-pipe in the back, some wiring and misc connections, valve covers off up top, upper covers off from each bank, then the lower back cover? I know I'm over simplifying it.

Does removing that lower rear cover mean the full timing service is required? Or can it be removed to replace the bad guides without the motor needing to be re-timed?

[badger.]

Or can it be removed to replace the bad guides without the motor needing to be re-timed?

I had all my covers off when I did my timing (engine out) and didn't actually "reset" or "re-time" anything, left it all locked (crank pin/cam bars) and changed one guide/tensioner at a time. SO basically if you are still "in time" then you don't need to go through the entire re-timing process.
YMMV
ninja edit: i installed the whole JHM intermediate timing kit this way, mech adjusters included.

[icanfly]

As was pointed out, you'll need the tools to do this. You can rent them from JHM.

I am currently doing my timing system refresh right now (self-pulled motor) and am at the critical stage of timing. There are documents that can be provided (I got them from another member and as such will spread the love, just PM me with your email).

Soon, I'll be doing a write up of what it actually takes to do this yourself and what I learned in the process as a shade tree mechanic to help others who choose to tackle this project.

[Foot]

The timing tools will set the timing for you, but the trick is to loosen the bolts on the cam gears and let them float while setting the timing. The exhaust cam gear and the intake cam mechanical adjuster gear move around, but the cams stay put, while you take up the slack in the chains. Then once the tensioners have the slack taken out with wedges, you tighten the bolts in the cam gears to lock in the timing.

[Foot]

workshop-manuals.com

http://workshop-manuals.com/audi/s4/...iew/page_3322/

[Foot]

FYI: The JHM kit is missing the 2 exhuast cam bolts and an O-ring #N 906 384 02 for a small tensioner (#67 under #23 on the ETKA).

The manual clearly states that the cam gears need to be loose when setting chain tension and to do that you need to replace all 4 "stretch bolts" on the cams, but JHM only gives you two. The slack in the chain is what Audi wants you to get out, so thats why they want the gears to float around on the cams until the proper tension is in the chains.

The Audi V8 from 1991 has dual overhead cams and the gears on the cams need to float and stay loose when you set the timing on that engine too in order to take out the slack. Audi has always done it that way. Lock the cams, leave the cam gears loose.

[gcoy]

^^^ Great advise

[icanfly]

Foot,
it looks like your S4 is a 2004 - when pulling my timing system apart, I didn't find the O-Ring #67 as called out in the diagram either in the adjuster or on the motor. I did pick one up before I started the project because I remember someone calling this out sometime back in an old thread I could no longer find. As such, does anyone have enough technical knowledge (JHM Team?) can you speak to the need for this O-Ring (specifically in my case - an 06') and call out the difference between the different year engines?

want to make sure that we are getting and sharing the right information.
thanks!

[VroomTT]

I had all my covers off when I did my timing (engine out) and didn't actually "reset" or "re-time" anything, left it all locked (crank pin/cam bars) and changed one guide/tensioner at a time. SO basically if you are still "in time" then you don't need to go through the entire re-timing process.
YMMV
ninja edit: i installed the whole JHM intermediate timing kit this way, mech adjusters included.

This is exactly what I wanted to know! No timing concerns for me yet(knock on wood) but I figure if I tackle the clutch, wouldn't be a bad idea to try to check guides for cracks and swap them out for the metal/updated ones.

[Foot]

Foot,
it looks like your S4 is a 2004 - when pulling my timing system apart, I didn't find the O-Ring #67 as called out in the diagram either in the adjuster or on the motor. I did pick one up before I started the project because I remember someone calling this out sometime back in an old thread I could no longer find. As such, does anyone have enough technical knowledge (JHM Team?) can you speak to the need for this O-Ring (specifically in my case - an 06') and call out the difference between the different year engines?

want to make sure that we are getting and sharing the right information.
thanks!

If you look closely at this pic of the tensioner in question, you'll see the rough casting, it mates to a machined surface on the block, and so it makes an o-ring necessary to seal it. If your 2006 tensioner is machined vs. cast at this o-ring location, then no o-ring needed. I think the one you get from JHM is cast in the kit and so I'd put in the o-ring.

pic borrowed from badger, thanks badger for this detailed pic.

[badger.]

This is exactly what I wanted to know! No timing concerns for me yet(knock on wood) but I figure if I tackle the clutch, wouldn't be a bad idea to try to check guides for cracks and swap them out for the metal/updated ones.

and to clarify, i did replace the top two cam bolts (those came off due to the mechanical adjusters) but I did not loosen the others ones as Foot specified.

[badger.]

If you look closely at this pic of the tensioner in question, you'll see the rough casting, it mates to a machined surface on the block, and so it makes an o-ring necessary to seal it. If your 2006 tensioner is machined vs. cast at this o-ring location, then no o-ring needed. I think the one you get from JHM is cast in the kit and so I'd put in the o-ring.

pic borrowed from badger, thanks badger for this detailed pic.

No problem :)

BTW I never did install this o-ring... no issues yet (knock on wood). It's been 17k miles now. I asked around here and other forums, and got mixed answers on whether it is needed or not. Although overall most claimed it wasn't really that important. If I was doing timing work at <100k I probably would've gone back and got it in there, but since I did it at 164k, even if it does cause accelerated wear from momentary slack or something I doubt I will see it before something else blows lol
Some further discussion buried here:
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...k-on-the-Clock!