Lets do this again - Nozzle size discussion for WMI on stg 3

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

Can some people who have run meth on their 2.7t chime in here. I am looking at the 3 brands, Devils, AEM, and Snow. All have about the same "adjustable psi" pump for the most part up to 250 psi. All are $350-$400 for their stage 2 kits.

However all companies have different opinions on what size nozzles I should run (dual nozzle setup on bipipes). I am planning on running 20-25 PSI shooting for 500-550 chp.

Snow says two 225 ml/min
AEM says two 441 ml/min
Devils says two 315 ml/min

I also found this water methanol nozzle size calculator here which says I should run a 315 ml/min

I am just a noob to this topic so any input would be appreciated.

[vtraudt]

+1 on the above.

From asking the manufacturers, I get the impression they don't have much clue.
Example: I asked Devils for the recommended dual nozzle setup for before TB (for cooling, needs 'dwell time' to be effective) and post TB (knock reduction; as close to cylinder as possible). I even pointed out my concern that post TB will see 'vacuum), and questioned if not TWO check valves are needed. If only only one (before the "T"), then I effectively create a vacuum leak (vacuum post TB with throttle closed, connected to no vacuum before TB). They did NOT get it. And certainly nozzles sizes all over the place ("kit comes with 2 nozzle, use those").

[19dabeast85]

I think their recommendations are pretty generic. Every engine model will need a different amount of mixture. Your best bet is buy a few nozzles and when you get tuned to use the water/meth, let the tuner figure out how big a nozzle you need.

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

So for an update:

I ran the two #4 size nozzles with the preset 200PSi pump. #4 is 251 ml/min and I was misfiring on cyl 3 and 4 at wot. Not horrible misfires, but about 13 total in a full 3rd gear run. On my progressive controller I was start spray at 12PSI and End at 24PSI.

With the progressive controller Start spray 15% of the total PWM and Full spray is 100%. Since I boost to only 20 PSI, setting the full spray to 24, I assumed that when I met full boost of 20, I would get about 70% of spray capacity.

I still misfired.

I adjusted it all the way to Start: 17, Full: 30 and still misfired. I called devils own and they suggested two #3 nozzles. These are 189ml/min. I will install these and report back. I hope this makes the system run well. I wish there was more conversation about WMI on this forum...

[dannyn424]

I am having similiar issues and stepped down to the #3 nozzles.. i tried a full throttle run to 5k once and no misfires..... i will try a full throttle run soon but need to replace my green check valves to rule them out(peace of mind)..... what mix are u running? im on a mix of splash-20 and heet...... also im on 18psi start and 30psi (max) full now......

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

I am running 50/50 personal mix. Hopefully my #3s will be in this week. I think also because the car is not totally hot when Im logging. My tuner says to not really run meth in the winter.

I just want to set my progressive controller to like start 12, full 25 and have it work there so I will have some wiggle room. If the #3s dont work ill mess around with the pump pressure

[vtraudt]

Since my turbos spool up VERY fast, I literally don't have TIME to find the best 'kick in' pressure setting for my manual pressure switch that turns the pump on.
Either too early (timing pull on cyl 2 (sometimes 1) at low rpm; 'flooding' the cyl.
Too later (high end timing pull because meth is missing).
Maybe I have to spend the big bucks and get the electronic controller to ramp up the pump. start at 10 psi (so it has 'time' to build pressure) and stop at 25 psi (currently running 22 psi).

Note: I have run (2 different cars) on 1.8T, new pump, 22 psi, 7200 rpm:
a) #7 (12" before TB/IAT) and #3 (in TB, right after IAT)
b) #7 12" before TB/IAT

Surprised that you can overwhelm the 2.7T with 2x #3!

DevilsOwn pump and nozzles.

34% Meth, 66% water (standard -20 cheap blue wiper fluid mix).

[aysix]

Twin #4(252 cc/min)s been used on K04 setups for a very long time. Some people setup up to #5's on larger turbos like 605's. I'm not sure at what pump pressure those setups run. This is all w/ 50/50

[julex]

WMI doesn't work that way. The progressiveness of WMI is bunch on BS. In practical terms, when pump starts pumping at around 10% DC, it is spraying about 50% of system throughput already. There is no linearity to flow either. To get true linear output you'd have to invest in far more sophisticated system utilizing solenoids where pump always works 100% and solenoids precisely dose the mixture into the jets.

Anyhow, the nozzle size calculations are actually fairly easy if you know your top IDC (injector duty cycle), injector size and what % of M/W you want to inject.

IDC you get from logging your car to max RPMs you will ever want to run at.
Injector size you should know (they are rated at 2.8bar at Ford though, otherwise most aftermarket ones are @ 3bar)
Percentage of fuel mass you want to onject, usually no more than 20%, 15% is usually a good sweet spot for 50/50 mix of W/M


You take your maximum fuel injector flow at fuel rail pressure (4bar), which for 550cc would be something like 650CC, times 6 cylinders and that gives you 650*6=3,900cc.
If you hit say 80% IDC at top RPMs, then your actual fuel flow is 0.80 * 3,900= 3,120ml/min
You should flow about 15-20% W/M of your total fuel flow, so 0.2 * 3,120= 624ml/min

Crucial thing to realize is that ALL nozzles are rated @ 100psi.
At 250psi they will flow: FLOW * sqrt(250/100) = FLOW * 1.58

So, taking that 624ml/in requirement and dividing by 1.58 will give you estimated maximum nozzle size you should use: 600/1.58 = 394ml/min COMBINED
Two nozzles thus: 394/2 = ~200ml maximum nozzle size

Looks like SNOW is right on the ball.

Does this make sense?

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

Surprised that you can overwhelm the 2.7T with 2x #3!

#4s currently

WMI doesn't work that way. The progressiveness of WMI is bunch on BS. In practical terms, when pump starts pumping at around 10% DC, it is spraying about 50% of system throughput already. There is no linearity to flow either. To get true linear output you'd have to invest in far more sophisticated system utilizing solenoids where pump always works 100% and solenoids precisely dose the mixture into the jets.

Anyhow, the nozzle size calculations are actually fairly easy if you know your top IDC (injector duty cycle), injector size and what % of M/W you want to inject.

IDC you get from logging your car to max RPMs you will ever want to run at.
Injector size you should know (they are rated at 2.8bar at Ford though, otherwise most aftermarket ones are @ 3bar)
Percentage of fuel mass you want to onject, usually no more than 20%, 15% is usually a good sweet spot for 50/50 mix of W/M


You take your maximum fuel injector flow at fuel rail pressure (4bar), which for 550cc would be something like 650CC, times 6 cylinders and that gives you 650*6=3,900cc.
If you hit say 80% IDC at top RPMs, then your actual fuel flow is 0.80 * 3,900= 3,120ml/min
You should flow about 15-20% W/M of your total fuel flow, so 0.2 * 3,120= 624ml/min

Crucial thing to realize is that ALL nozzles are rated @ 100psi.
At 250psi they will flow: FLOW * sqrt(250/100) = FLOW * 1.58

So, taking that 624ml/in requirement and dividing by 1.58 will give you estimated maximum nozzle size you should use: 600/1.58 = 394ml/min COMBINED
Two nozzles thus: 394/2 = ~200ml maximum nozzle size

Looks like SNOW is right on the ball.

Does this make sense?

I think this was some info that I was looking for. Doesnt make sense yet, but I will read it a few times over. Thank you

[julex]

FYI, I am running 2 x 5# jets on my set up (770 @ 34psi making > 600whp) and it is just exactly what I need... and I take it to 8.3k rpms.

You can also be tuning this with your wideband. Basically you want to ensure your fueling is about 0.5afr richer with W/M during WOT than without.

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

OK so I calculated that I will need two 165ml/min nozzles for 15% ratio and for 20% I would need two 220ml/min for 20%.

So two #3s "189 ml/min" should work. The devils own pump is 200psi.

Now you are saying the pwm unit is not really a pwm unit. It is more just a fancy switch in which you can select what psi it starts to spray? I was hoping to spray at low boost levels too like 12-13 psi at a lower pwm using the controller.

Therotically, does the controller lower psi or flow at the lower pwm?

[julex]

OK so I calculated that I will need two 165ml/min nozzles for 15% ratio and for 20% I would need two 220ml/min for 20%.

So two #3s "189 ml/min" should work. The devils own pump is 200psi.

Now you are saying the pwm unit is not really a pwm unit. It is more just a fancy switch in which you can select what psi it starts to spray? I was hoping to spray at low boost levels too like 12-13 psi at a lower pwm using the controller.

Therotically, does the controller lower psi or flow at the lower pwm?

You'd have to hook up a pressure gauge to the line but basically even at very low PWM it already reaches very high pressures already.

This combined with the fact that at 250psi nozzle doesn't flow 2.5x as much as at 100psi, the formula I gave you above applies.

Google it, I spent hours researching this subject.

Add to this the fact that unless you prime the system just before WOT (I wired a push button switch in my cabin to manually prime the system), there will be a delay in getting juice going since the M/W usually drain from nozzles/lines after check valve if you haven't used it very recently.

So bascially unless you guy a really good system I described above, the cheap ones are far from reliable or accurate in delivery.

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

You'd have to hook up a pressure gauge to the line but basically even at very low PWM it already reaches very high pressures already.

This combined with the fact that at 250psi nozzle doesn't flow 2.5x as much as at 100psi, the formula I gave you above applies.

Google it, I spent hours researching this subject.

Add to this the fact that unless you prime the system just before WOT (I wired a push button switch in my cabin to manually prime the system), there will be a delay in getting juice going since the M/W usually drain from nozzles/lines after check valve if you haven't used it very recently.

So bascially unless you guy a really good system I described above, the cheap ones are far from reliable or accurate in delivery.

Yes excellent info. Maybe I will buy a flow tester and pressure gauge and pump air into the boost line on my controller to see how well it actually does work. And the priming button is genius. it is a simple short to ground is all I will need.

How many degrees of advance are you running with your system all finely tuned?

[aysix]

How many degrees of advance are you running with your system all finely tuned?

More than you can afford pal. Julex is graced with 93 danktane. That 91 stuff found over in these parts is terrible.

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

More than you can afford pal. Julex is graced with 93 danktane. That 91 stuff found over in these parts is terrible.

Lol!!!! I know. I try and use 76

[julex]

Lol!!!! I know. I try and use 76

I saw as much as 24+ degrees on 93 during winter while pushing 34psi of boost . Was fun, car clocked in excess of 650whp .

[aysix]

I saw as much as 24+ degrees on 93 during winter while pushing 34psi of boost . Was fun, car clocked in excess of 650whp .

That's nuts.

I think K04 cars down here can do 14-15 on pump and 50/50 during the summer. Without meth and 200f intake temps, people are lucky to trap faster than 5 second fats while retarding at 7deg. This is at 22 psi by the way.

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

I saw as much as 24+ degrees on 93 during winter while pushing 34psi of boost . Was fun, car clocked in excess of 650whp .

FTW!

[Racin2redline]

Meth is a hell of a drug.

I cant help but feeling like doc from back to the future at gas stations mixing bottles of heat and washer fluid pouring it into your car.

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

In the picture above, the 5 gallon drum cost $25 and the walmart gallons were $2 each. The guy at walmart looked at me funny.

[NuGGet_PuFFer]

This thread just made my head hurt.

[aysix]

Yea i asked the dudes down here at autozone for -40 fluid and they're like..."you know you live in las vegas right?"

Most places here have 32f or 0f lowest...-20 i think gets mopped up by the evo guys as soon as it hits town in walmart. Send some of that good good down here.

[NuGGet_PuFFer]

Yea i asked the dudes down here at autozone for -40 fluid and they're like..."you know you live in las vegas right?"

Most places here have 32f or 0f lowest...-20 i think gets mopped up by the evo guys as soon as it hits town in walmart. Send some of that good good down here.

You could prob order it by the case online, no?

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

You could probably order it online. Im just about the cheap. I dont want to buy the pre-mixed because of my cheapness. -20 is like 30% I think the -40 is closer to 40%.

You cant buy this stuff in CA. Sucks for them

aysix: are you running a meth system on yours?

[NuGGet_PuFFer]

You could probably order it online. Im just about the cheap. I dont want to buy the pre-mixed because of my cheapness. -20 is like 30% I think the -40 is closer to 40%.

You cant buy this stuff in CA. Sucks for them

aysix: are you running a meth system on yours?

I'd imagine you could order it in bulk online for cheaper than you could find it in a retail store, but I've been wrong before.

[aysix]

aysix: are you running a meth system on yours?

About to be on my GLI.

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

About to be on my GLI.

Your able to get 478awhp on k24s? I didn't know that

[aysix]

Your able to get 478awhp on k24s? I didn't know that

Yea, on 93 octane with 15f ambient in CT. Lucky to get 420 on 91.

[julex]

Yea, on 93 octane with 15f ambient in CT.

just about the only thing NE winter is good for

[aysix]

It's all about E85 down here. Do they have that up in lake tahoe? This GLI is going to be on 91/meth and E85/water pretty soon.

Julex, what size nozzles will i need w/a 250psi pump? My rail pressure is something stupid, like 150 bar :p

I figure i'll need two different size nozzles. One of straight water, and one a 50/50 mix.

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

We only have e85 at one place in Minden, NV. At GE Bentley facility. So that sucks, its too far

just about the only thing NE winter is good for

Atleast you guys get snow out there in NE. It doesn't even snow here anymore!!!! We are all going crazy

[julex]

Atleast you guys get snow out there in NE. It doesn't even snow here anymore!!!! We are all going crazy

Yeah well, take your damn snow

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

I might as well go back to Mercedes 2wd. No need for Quattro :(

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

OK Update:

Installed the two #3 nozzles last night and went for a run. Before with the #4 nozzles ME7 logger would register 13 misfires on my 3rd gear run. This time I got 4 misfires. I set the controller back to start spray 18, finish 20 and still got misfires. After some time, I believe my intercoolers were getting hotter and engine was getting hotter and I was getting no misfires.

Today I turned the pump counter clockwise 1/4 a turn to supposedly set the pump to 150 psi. Maybe this will help.

I would like to have no misfires while spraying when the engine is warm, not just when it is hot.

EDIT: Even tho I have read online that 1/4 a turn = 50psi, my tuner said that is not the case and that I should adjust the pump 1 full turn ccw , do a test run, adjust again until the misfires stop, then adjust clockwise until I find my sweet spot.

[dannyn424]

I need to turn my pump down as well but the DO pump is at 250psi... I wonder if it would be better to leave the pressure alone and use the dual Do2's........

[vtraudt]

Julex posted this statement. What is that based on? You should flow about 15-20% W/M of your total fuel flow.
What is that based on?

Why not 'run as much water/meth as you can'?

I certainly will try to get as much meth in there as possible so I can run more boost/timing.
On 1.8T currently running 9 or so gph but need to reduce flow at low rpm.
Will try playing with the electronic pump controller, see if I can dial the low rpm flow in a bit better (and flow even more at high rpm).

DO1 @ 200PSI 1.41GPH
D02 @ 200PSI 2.83GPH
DO3 @ 200PSI 4.24GPH
DO4 @ 200PSI 5.66GPH
D05 @ 200PSI 7.07GPH
DO7 @ 200PSI 9.90GPH
DO10 @ 200PSI 14.14GPH

[julex]

Julex posted this statement. What is that based on? You should flow about 15-20% W/M of your total fuel flow.
What is that based on?

Why not 'run as much water/meth as you can'?

I certainly will try to get as much meth in there as possible so I can run more boost/timing.
On 1.8T currently running 9 or so gph but need to reduce flow at low rpm.
Will try playing with the electronic pump controller, see if I can dial the low rpm flow in a bit better (and flow even more at high rpm).

DO1 @ 200PSI 1.41GPH
D02 @ 200PSI 2.83GPH
DO3 @ 200PSI 4.24GPH
DO4 @ 200PSI 5.66GPH
D05 @ 200PSI 7.07GPH
DO7 @ 200PSI 9.90GPH
DO10 @ 200PSI 14.14GPH

It's based on the AFR enrichment factor. If you're already running 11.4 for example (about what turbo engine should), then adding 20% extra "fuel" which consists of 50/50 WM mix effectively adds 10% more fuel (although of much lower stoich of about 6:1), then you're effectively adding a hair over 0.5 AFR of fuel making the mixture ~10.8-10.9. With extra water in the mix that inhibits ignition and flame speed you're already in an area where you can step into misfire region.

Now, if you pre-tune your car to a really lean burn prior to WM injection, then sure, you can run more WM but then you're making your fueling system dependent on WM injection and if that ever fails at WOT, you may sustain engine damage.

Thus the 15%-20% is based on relatively safe WM injection, no engine dependency on it, and not in crazy rich burn region with meth on.

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

1 Gal/Hour = 63 ml/min

So a d03 = 3 Gal/Hr = 189 ml/min

The Devils Own nozzles are spec'd at 100psi, so it is really stupid that they send out their pumps at 250 psi without giving anyone a hint of information about what flow will be coming from their "D03 nozzles" etc. Like you said above, at 200 PSI a do3 is 4.24 G/Hr. Using Julex equation I calculated that I need between 165 - 220 ml/min (x2)

Anyhow, to make a long story short. I turned the screw on the pump last night 2 1/4 turns ccw, and after 8 logs I was able to successfully set my progressive controller to start at 12psi, and Final at 20psi. This resulted in 0 misfires, IAT rise of 4 deg celcius over the full 3rd hear pull, and held timing at +25 Degrees, all at 20psi at 4,400 elevation. With this, I assume that I am running the most absolute meth that I can for my setup.

Im installing that Spartan WB this weekend(hopefully it works) and plan to finite tune.

[dannyn424]

1 Gal/Hour = 63 ml/min

So a d03 = 3 Gal/Hr = 189 ml/min

The Devils Own nozzles are spec'd at 100psi, so it is really stupid that they send out their pumps at 250 psi without giving anyone a hint of information about what flow will be coming from their "D03 nozzles" etc. Like you said above, at 200 PSI a do3 is 4.24 G/Hr. Using Julex equation I calculated that I need between 165 - 220 ml/min (x2)

Anyhow, to make a long story short. I turned the screw on the pump last night 2 1/4 turns ccw, and after 8 logs I was able to successfully set my progressive controller to start at 12psi, and Final at 20psi. This resulted in 0 misfires, IAT rise of 4 deg celcius over the full 3rd hear pull, and held timing at +25 Degrees, all at 20psi at 4,400 elevation. With this, I assume that I am running the most absolute meth that I can for my setup.

Im installing that Spartan WB this weekend(hopefully it works) and plan to finite tune.

I wonder if its preferable to lower the pressure (by 1x- 2x turns on the pump) on the do3's or move to the do2's and leave the pump pressure alone..... I already have dual do2's that I can install this sat.