Those of you who are having Navigation Issues (Please read)

**scmguru** · 08-29-2014 12:06 PM

It looks like at least 10 forum members are having similar Navigation issues. I am starting to collect information to send to Audi Engineering, so we can hopefully get this fixed, since it seems the TSB 2030465/6 didn't resolve this issue for some.

Issue: The navigation is showing your vehicle in the wrong location on the map (sometimes even in water) and the farther you drive, the worse it gets. In my case, 1 initially noticed the my vehicle arrow icon (on the nav map display regular and google maps) was showing me as driving at a 45 degree angle vs the road it thought I was on (which was wrong).

I need the following info: (you can post it here, or if you feel more comfortable or private message it to me)

1. Audi Model (S5, RS5 etc) and Model Year.

2. When did you take delivery? (If you feel comfortable, please private message me the last 4 # of your VIN)- I won't post it or disclose it to anyone but Audi.

3. What is the software version currently installed on your car.

4. When you do have issues, what are the symptoms and can you please check to see if you are connecting with GPS Satellites by performing the following:
(In Navigation mode --> Set a destination and start the route guidance (from the Navigation map screen)
a. Select Route.
b. Scroll up to top item and select it.
c. Scroll up to the top of that page and there it tells you how many Satellites it can see. (Mine initially saw 0 but the number would fluctuate after a while between 5-10). Note: If you don't have clear access to the sky, you WILL have less satellites showing.

The image you see will look similar to this one:

Can you take a picture of that screen and either post it here or PM me and I'll give you an email to send it to.

5. Determine Installed Software Version- Either post a picture here, PM Me or just type in the information you see.
Procedure from MMI Screen --> Menu Button -> Setup MMI --> Scroll to Version Information (Select).
(If this doesn't work, there should be instructions in your manual)

The screen you see will look like this:

6. Does the issue resolve itself (i.e. if you park the car and drive it the next day etc)

7. Does a hard reset of the NAV/MMI resolve the issue? PLEASE DONT DO THIS UNTIL YOU'VE COLLECTED THE INFO ABOVE 1st AND HAVE HAD YOUR DEALER search for DTC codes (or you have VAG-COM and can search for them yourself.. just make sure to write down what you find)

Press and hold down the function keys 1 (Setup), the control button 2 and the control key at the top right 3 simultaneously until the MMI system shuts down. Release keys -> MMI system reboots (see picture below)

---
Hopefully this will help all of us get this resolved sooner, rather than later!

**superswiss** · 08-29-2014 03:14 PM

Figured I'd post here instead of the other thread where this all started. FWIW, I've only ever had issues in one location so far and it's always the same location. It's right after a tunnel. In fact there's a new bore that recently opened, which is not on my current map. I started noticing the issue after taking the new bore and I think it is because it thinks I'm driving through the mountain and then gets confused at the other end. It starts placing me on side roads next to the highway and I see the location drift away from where I actually am for a while until after a few minutes it has me back in the right location. The tunnel exit is also surrounded by hills, so I'm guessing that the GPS signal also reflects of the hills and adds to the problem.

For those of you who have regular issues, does it always happen in the same places? If so, it's most likely external factors such as blocked or reflected GPS signals.

I've actually been talking to my SA and AoA about a firmware upgrade. I'm currently on 0715 and there is no official update, but I've just been told by the shop foreman that Audi is working on an update. There was an update, but it was flawed and Audi had to pull it. I'm not sure if the flawed update is 0726 or the TSB you listed, but AoA confirmed that 0715 is the most current update for my 2013 RS5 at this point.

**mike-z** · 08-29-2014 03:41 PM

Same issue in one of the other forums, you might want to include them

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...-car-nav-issue

**scmguru** · 08-29-2014 04:25 PM

For me it happened when leaving home and then never corrected after a 1.5 hr drive, sitting for 3+ hours in a different city and I came out and it was still off by 40+ miles. Thank goodness my phone nav worked.

**JamesRS5** · 08-30-2014 02:11 AM

Mine was the same this morning after leaving it for 12 hours, the car now thinks it's in a position out towards the desert and hasn't moved. I dropped it off for a gtechniq detail and window tinting today so I won't get it back until Tuesday. It's booked in with Audi on Wednesday for them to assess what's packed up.
I'll report back then.

**Liberation** · 08-31-2014 01:27 PM

I have an issue with my nav while in Google Earth getting and staying blurry.....unless, I go to standard mode for a week or so and then when I go back to Google Earth it will work again for a few days but then get blurry again.

Anyone else have this issue?

**JamesRS5** · 08-31-2014 06:47 PM

That sounds more of a data connection issue than a GPS issue.

**scmguru** · 09-01-2014 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by JamesRS5

That sounds more of a data connection issue than a GPS issue.

2nd.. I had that happen when Google Earth tried to download data and the t-mobile connection where I was located at sucked and it never ended up updating Google Earth view until later that day when I left the city.

**Liberation** · 09-02-2014 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by JamesRS5

That sounds more of a data connection issue than a GPS issue.

Do you think it's because I have renewed my Audi Connect yet? I didn't think that was it because it does work sometimes and if the connection wasn't active, it would work at all.

**superswiss** · 09-02-2014 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by Liberation

Do you think it's because I have renewed my Audi Connect yet? I didn't think that was it because it does work sometimes and if the connection wasn't active, it would work at all.

You mean you don't currently have an active data subscription? If so then yes that would be your problem.

**JamesRS5** · 09-01-2014 08:28 AM

Hi Mike,

I did just type out a full reply but it seems to have not sent?

Ok, I'll try again; my navigation started to try and work today, it had my position and had me traveling in the correct direction on the correct road. This degraded over the next 30 minutes, the nav seemed to lose heading at first, the arrow would be pointing as if the car was driving sideways along the road, the track was correct, just the heading off by 90'.

Then at the next big interchange it completely lost the road, it took a good 10 to 15 seconds for it to figure out I had changed roads. It also had me driving down the service roads and not the main highway (accuracy has large errors)

Here's a picture of my software version, please bare in mind it will be a Middle East map so completely different to yours.

The cars booked in for the 7th with Audi for them to diagnose the fault.

Let me know if I can help any more.

James

**superswiss** · 09-01-2014 10:15 AM

^ Interesting that you have European firmware in Dubai. The US gets its own firmware. In the US, I haven't seen anything higher than 0726, but you have 0767, which is the latest European firmware version as far as I know. I'm starting to think that Audi got a batch of bad GPS antennas or something in the cars with these issue.

**JamesRS5** · 09-01-2014 11:38 AM

Speaking to the technical manager today, they have replaced a NAV unit on a car showing the same symptoms, my worry is the nav unit they replace it with is from the same bad batch.
Dubai has seen a few different models with these symptoms.

**superswiss** · 09-01-2014 04:45 PM

Crap! Apparently I jinxed myself. This just happened to me for the first time after 20,000 miles. Same issue. No satellites being tracked. Had to fire up my phone half way into the journey. Now I'm starting to wonder if there's been an update to the GPS system that is causing this issue.
Sent from my Lumia 920 using Tapatalk

UPDATE: It was all back to normal on the way home after the car had sat for a few hours. I emailed my SA. I'll see what he comes up with.

**JamesRS5** · 09-03-2014 04:58 AM

Back on topic:

My GPS only fails when I leave home. Leaving work it functions perfectly.

I checked on the way to work today when it was indicating I was in the middle of the desert, I had 'zero satellites' logged on. The car is parked overnight in an underground car park so definitely no GPS coverage when the system boots up. At work it's under a fabric sun shelter so it will have a signal. This still shouldn't be happening though, the system should log on to the satellites when it sees them.

This is either a bad antenna which is giving a really low gain signal to the nav unit or it's a bad nav unit. I think I'll ask audi to change both to try and eliminate the fault. The car is less than a week old, a $98k car should be able to give me directions.

**scmguru** · 09-03-2014 02:24 PM

Mine did it again today.. same situation.. parked in a parking structure.. it doesn't lock on to satellites.. I had to do a 3 button reset and then it rebooted and worked. Still ridiculous..

**superswiss** · 09-03-2014 02:53 PM

I think the issue arises when the unit completely looses all satellite signals. At that point it starts relying on information it gets from the ECU about steering angle, speed etc. to approximate ones position. It seems that it gets stuck in that mode, even after satellite signals return and then drifts away from the actual location further and further as the ECU signals only allow it to approximate the current location based on the last known location. In my case it happened right after a tunnel. Although, I've driven through the same tunnel many times, so it seems it doesn't trigger the bug all the time.

I've heard back from my SA and he said that he gets this complaint a lot and that it happens on all models. He was going to talk to the shop foreman about it. I followed up with a stern email that this is not normal at all. The satellites didn't just fall out of the sky as evidenced by the fact that my phone had no issues quickly acquiring my location and take me to my intended destination. Audi must be aware of this as it seems to be a widespread issue. Not sure why my system was fine for the first 20,000 miles, though and the all of a sudden had the issue. So far it's been fine. I highly doubt this is a hardware issue. It seems to be an obscure software bug that Audi hasn't been able to track down yet.

**banksc** · 09-04-2014 12:30 PM

[QUOTE=superswiss;10067771
I've heard back from my SA and he said that he gets this complaint a lot and that it happens on all models. He was going to talk to the shop foreman about it. I followed up with a stern email that this is not normal at all. The satellites didn't just fall out of the sky as evidenced by the fact that my phone had no issues quickly acquiring my location and take me to my intended destination. Audi must be aware of this as it seems to be a widespread issue. Not sure why my system was fine for the first 20,000 miles, though and the all of a sudden had the issue. So far it's been fine. I highly doubt this is a hardware issue. It seems to be an obscure software bug that Audi hasn't been able to track down yet.[/QUOTE]

Sounds a lot like my issues with the WiFi (we tried other cars and they did it too, must be that your streaming music is overwhelming the WiFi!?!)...or the issue manually shifting into 5th (the '13 RS5 we got in does it as well, you must be trying to shift before the computer says it is time; despite the fact I can shift into 7th gear without issue at the same speed!)

Audi loves to sidestep the real issues. They keep implying that these are 'features'.

**superswiss** · 09-04-2014 04:38 PM

Got a response from my SA regarding the issue. Guess I have to wait till it occurs again and then send in the pics. Looks like the issue is known, but a documented fix is not available as of yet.

I need to see if you can take a photo when the system acts up. One of the nav showing that the car is not in correct position (like in the bay) and other showing number
of satellites received. I am currently talking to the Audi Factory Engineer and he can fix this but needs to determine the fix (with the photos) He says there is no information on the
fix available to the dealers nor is it in any Audi systems as of yet. If you can get those to me I will forward them to him and he will notify when he will be in again and he will be the
one to fix your vehicle. He says most likely cause is due to a chip which is effected by the climate control system.

**4RingRook** · 09-03-2014 03:49 PM

Have this same issue. 2014 A5. Will collect info.

**JamesRS5** · 09-04-2014 07:59 PM

It can't be a difficult fix, every other navigation equipped car I have owned hasn't had this problem with covered parking and acquiring GPS, maybe this 'factory engineer' should look at any other car outside of the Audi brand and perhaps Garmin to see how they make GPS systems which are able to find satellites.

A fix maybe - instead of it just sitting with zero satellites and approximating the position, why can't it switch to 'search the sky' mode when it has been without satellite contact for a set period of time. Or maybe this is the problem, it's approximation software is so poor that it thinks it's in a completely different area so is confusing itself when it's looking for a satellite?

I can send you pictures of my system when it is lost if you think it will help but I can't see how it will, the nav system doesn't have the ability to display horizontal errors or figures of merit which is the information the engineer probably needs.

How do I 'reset' the system whilst on the move just out of interest?

**superswiss** · 09-05-2014 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by JamesRS5

It can't be a difficult fix, every other navigation equipped car I have owned hasn't had this problem with covered parking and acquiring GPS, maybe this 'factory engineer' should look at any other car outside of the Audi brand and perhaps Garmin to see how they make GPS systems which are able to find satellites.

A fix maybe - instead of it just sitting with zero satellites and approximating the position, why can't it switch to 'search the sky' mode when it has been without satellite contact for a set period of time. Or maybe this is the problem, it's approximation software is so poor that it thinks it's in a completely different area so is confusing itself when it's looking for a satellite?

I can send you pictures of my system when it is lost if you think it will help but I can't see how it will, the nav system doesn't have the ability to display horizontal errors or figures of merit which is the information the engineer probably needs.

Now that I'm paying a lot more attention to the map even if I'm not actively navigating, I'm noticing that the issue happens quite frequently, however, it does a decent job at tracking the car's position using the ECU signals, but in the following picture it's apparent that it lost track of the satellites from the completely wrong altitude. I'm at sea level here. I sent the pics to my SA, so I see if this is sufficient for the engineer to come out and fix my car.

Originally Posted by JamesRS5

How do I 'reset' the system whilst on the move just out of interest?

RTFM

. Simultaneously, press down on menu, center dial and upper right control button. It's the MMI's Ctrl-Alt-Del.

**scmguru** · 09-05-2014 07:23 PM

The other day, I was able to get my nav to work properly if I performed the 3 button reset, while in an area without obstructions/buildings blocking the view of the sky.

Don't know if there is any other software version (other than map software version) info I can access via the mmi menu. If there is, I'd be happy to check mine and report back.

Not sure if my last visit to the dealer changed the sw version of the mmi

I currently have rev 726 of the mmi software.

It's interesting that you noticed the altitude issue.. I just noticed it on a drive this morning, I was apparently 90 feet below sea level as I was driving on pch on a bluff next to the ocean...

For what it is worth, the three button reset has intermittently worked for me, However, it only works if I am in an area with a clear view of the sky, ie, not blocked by buildings, even mid rise buildings, hills etc.. which I suppose makes sense.

Fwiw, my vehicle is parked in an older concrete parking structure, which is completely enclosed on the sides/walls and only has a few windows to let light in.

**JamesRS5** · 09-06-2014 12:27 AM

The puck type high gain antennas are relatively cheap, I wonder if it worth slaving one in and just leaving it on the rear shelf to see if the system picks up satellites more efficiently.

**JamesRS5** · 09-07-2014 08:49 AM

Well as I expected/feared, The service guys at Audi Dubai didn't listen to a single word I said.

They switched the system on in the Audi workshop and what would you know, 7 satellites were visible. They are now keeping the car overnight and expect it to fail in the morning. I tried to explain it will work perfectly ok because it isn't at the bottom of a 44 story concrete building but it's fallen on deaf ears.

Oh well

**tadduci** · 09-08-2014 06:15 AM

Hello,
Yes, I have this exact same issue. I just took delivery of a 2015 RS5 and it has less than 250 miles on it.
I keep this car in a parking garage and I started to experience this problem on a regular basis (but it doesn't occur every time). At first I thought, well it just doesn't see the satellites as it is in a garage. I expected it to discover them when I left the garage however. That never happened and as I live near the lake in Chicago it said I was driving in the middle of the lake.

As I can see from the other posts it is clearly a firmware issue. Doubt it's the antenna as this many antenna's can't be bad.

Please keep me posted.
Thank you!
Tony

**JamesRS5** · 09-08-2014 07:40 AM

Hi Tony,
I went to collect my car from the Audi service centre today, they said they couldn't reproduce the fault, I pulled out of the parking and guess what.....the GPS did nothing, it stayed fixed in position at Audi. On top of that, the steering wheel controls had now become unresponsive.

So it's back in Audi, I said keep it until you fix the issue.

The head tech told me this isn't an A5 isolated fault, it's Audi wide and appears to be linked to temperature, the failures only happen in countries where the cars a/c is running cold all the time. Can we all just confirm that we have our a/c on cold so this can either be confirmed or crossed off the list of possibilities.

I for one do have mine permanently set to low with a relatively high fan speed of around 6.

**scmguru** · 09-08-2014 02:08 PM

I have my AC running on cold and they insulated a module, not fixed.

However, there is no way the module would get so cold in less than the minute it takes to get out of a parking structure when the outside temp is anywhere from 77-89 degrees F.

It has happened both with and without the ac on "cold" for me

Back to the drawing board Audi...

**JamesRS5** · 09-08-2014 07:09 PM

These were my thoughts too, the nav system is no longer a disc spinning away which I could possibly understand, it's a solid state memory so cold shouldn't really have an effect.
Tony and my car must have come off the line at almost the same time so that sounds more like a bad batch of Nav units.

**scmguru** · 09-09-2014 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by JamesRS5

These were my thoughts too, the nav system is no longer a disc spinning away which I could possibly understand, it's a solid state memory so cold shouldn't really have an effect.
Tony and my car must have come off the line at almost the same time so that sounds more like a bad batch of Nav units.

I was told the nav map actually resides on a hard drive inside the mmi unit, maybe they switched to ssd, but everything I have read indicates it is a regular hdd.

**JamesRS5** · 09-09-2014 08:40 AM

Well some good news which may help?

I returned the car with the navigation unit in the faulted state, luckily the fly in technician from AG manufacture was present so when they plugged it in, it was reporting the code 5F which is as sporadic fault in the navigation control unit, this will now be replaced and hopefully my navigation woes will be over and I can start enjoying the car.

I will report back with updates to see if this has fixed the issue and give you some more info to feed back to your service departments.

Scmguru, it may well be a hard drive, I was assuming a hard drive would be solid state now , apologies if that's caused some confusion, by spinning disc I meant the old DVD nav units.

**scmguru** · 09-09-2014 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by JamesRS5

Well some good news which may help?

I returned the car with the navigation unit in the faulted state, luckily the fly in technician from AG manufacture was present so when they plugged it in, it was reporting the code 5F which is as sporadic fault in the navigation control unit, this will now be replaced and hopefully my navigation woes will be over and I can start enjoying the car.

I will report back with updates to see if this has fixed the issue and give you some more info to feed back to your service departments.

Scmguru, it may well be a hard drive, I was assuming a hard drive would be solid state now , apologies if that's caused some confusion, by spinning disc I meant the old DVD nav units.

They said the same thing on my work order from about 3+ weeks ago.. Module 5F was reporting a sporadic fault and it was replaced and the module was insulated from the A/C..

Please let us know if replacing the 5F module resolves your issues and what firmware is running on it.

My replacement 5F module from a few weeks ago is running 726.

Apparently, a replacement part was flown in from Audi AG to my dealer (no idea what it is yet).. I am to bring the car in and will have to leave it at least 1/2 a day.. what a pain in the A**.

**tadduci** · 09-11-2014 09:06 AM

My air conditioning is on cold but the car is being started from an idle state parked in a garage overnight at 70 degrees F.
I don't see that being the issue. I have noticed that if I don't hit the nav screen or go to the nav until it has unobstructed view of the sat's then I don't see the issue as much.
If I am in the parking structure (obstructed view to sat's) and I hit nav it seems to malfunction permanently more often.

**Elanmike** · 09-11-2014 08:00 PM

I posted before on another thread - even started one a year ago. I've had this issue on/ off since I got the car April last year - it's a 2013 S5. At my last dealer visit I got the SW upgrade - there was a TSB stating to update the software to fix the issue. It didn't work. In fact, it got much, much worst. Now 1 in every 2 or 3 journeys has a lost Nav system. I don't use it to navigate so much, just use in map mode to see the traffic. I called the dealer back and they called Audi. They came back saying the software only works for some. Audi has another solution to the problem but not yet released - sounds like more BS - probably requires replacing something and they don't want to foot the Bill; software is much cheaper! Seems this issues been around a while. Audi should have this fixed by now.
One more note on the new SW - it's as slow as molasses at startup. I can't select the radio for the first few minutes after starting and even trying to change volume gives me a 'function not available' notification - wtf!
This is the SW they installed - avoid it: HN+_US_ AU3G_K0715_2

**FaceSmA5h** · 09-11-2014 10:58 PM

Same issue. 2014 Audi A5. Took Delivery January 21, 2014.

**scmguru** · 09-13-2014 08:54 AM

Has anyone had their root antenna replaced and did it resolve the issue?

**JamesRS5** · 09-13-2014 10:34 AM

Im not sure it's the antenna, my system was off course and heading but was still detecting 7 satellites. This must be the 5F module at fault, it seems to want to keep approximating the position using the steering input and velocity but over time the errors build until the vehicle is way off where it should be. It only seems to do this when the system is first started with no satellite signal and still doesn't pick them up for the first few minutes of driving.
In my case, I come out from underground parking and drive through a very built up area surrounded by 40+ story buildings for the first 5 minutes of the journey, it doesn't seem to have the ability to recover from this, eventually it will just freeze in one position miles from my actual position.

**scmguru** · 09-13-2014 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by JamesRS5

Im not sure it's the antenna, my system was off course and heading but was still detecting 7 satellites. This must be the 5F module at fault, it seems to want to keep approximating the position using the steering input and velocity but over time the errors build until the vehicle is way off where it should be. It only seems to do this when the system is first started with no satellite signal and still doesn't pick them up for the first few minutes of driving.
In my case, I come out from underground parking and drive through a very built up area surrounded by 40+ story buildings for the first 5 minutes of the journey, it doesn't seem to have the ability to recover from this, eventually it will just freeze in one position miles from my actual position.

You and I seem as though we have the same issue and park in a similar type of location.

Have you tried using the three button reset listed in the 1st post?

For me, if I perform the mmi reset it seems to resolve the issue by reinitializing the nav when there is a clear view of the sky, then it picks up the satellites and the map location is updated.

So the semi-good news is, there is a potential work around.

JamesRS5, do you park head in to your space or do you back in to your parking spot within the parking structure?

How about the rest of you? Do you park inside or outside and if you park inside, is the structure concrete or a residential garage?

For the folks who park in a parking structure, do you park head in or back in to the spot.

The reason I ask is the cement parking bumper in my garage is too tall and would tear up the front bumper, so I have to back in to the spot.

I wonder if that could be exacerbating the problem.

With my B7 RS4, I never had this issue (different nav system, but I was able to park head in.

I may try and see if there is an outside spot I can park in overnight and also try parking head in to see if either helps to resolve.

The strange thing is, my previous RS5 delivered 8/2013 never had this issue and I parked in the same spot and backed in.

**JamesRS5** · 09-14-2014 04:37 AM

I reverse into the parking space but my journey to my parking space is quite convoluted and involves driving up a ramp to the mezzanine level then doubling back on myself so many direction changes whilst out of satellite coverage.
I monitored the nav on the way to work this morning, for the entire 45 minute journey I had zero satellites, the nav kit initially did a good job of estimating where the cars position was, however, where there is a new road layout not loaded into the nav system, it completely threw the car off course as it tried to lock on to the nearest road. The the end of the journey I was one again displayed as being in the sea around 1/2 mile off the coast.

I did try the reset but no use to me, it still was detecting zero satellites.

My journey home after the car was parked in the open for 7 hrs had between 4 and 5 satellites displayed and tracked normally. I guess it just doesn't like being kept inside.

Let's see, my new nav unit should be coming in from Germany in 2 weeks.

**Elanmike** · 09-14-2014 06:50 AM

The other thing I've noticed with the HN+_US_ AU3G_K0715_2 software they installed is that even with 4 or 5 satellites the accuracy is much worst than before. I'm in Phoenix and we have streets parallel to the freeway- now the Nav often has me on the side street, or wrong side if the Fwy instead of on the fwy in the right direction. If i then use directions instead of a map, it gets very confused. Definitely a step backwards!