PCV Modification and Education Thread

[airbornerifleman]

I guess I'll add the pics I made for Corey a few months ago for good measure

And this is for you Billet Valve cover guys, Made this one For Hubert @ Europa:

This is how I have mine setup with the eurojet VC. In the case, do I need any "check valve(s)"?

[konarider94]

is the block milled out to connect the two ports where i have the green arrows drawn? what about the port where the red arrow is, i assume its just blocked off? the reason i ask is because it doesnt seem to be easy to find a plate like the one below. it seems clear on this style that the oil and water vapor coming from the valve cover is vented and the crankcase gases that used to come to the rear most connection up get vented away



most of them have 3 ports(not shown) or 1 at the very rear like below. on this style i know the two front ports are connected in the plate by a milled void and the rear stock hose just plugs back on. Where does all that oil and water vapor go that is just being recirculated in this style? The crankcase vapors are still coming into the engine. Does this style dump more into your rear pcv potentially putting more oil into the intercoolers but the advantage is replacing the "Weak" stock front pcv system that can cause a boost leak?

[konarider94]

http://eurojetracing.com/mk5-20-fsi-...ate-technology

this answered most of my questions in very few words, i think its a very simple layout to help people understand. now to search for one like the bsh plate corey has. maybe ill make one.

added image of different options below. I created the 4th option from eurojets images because some people run it that way too.

[ericpaulyoung]

The BSH block off plate has a slot machined in the back so that the two ports that you are pointing at are connected.

The question I have, is why retain the catch can at all, if you are just venting to atmosphere? My plan is to tee the two ports together like in Shane's picture, and connect the tee directly to a PCV valve that dumps to atmosphere.
Eric

[DRAKLORE]

is the block milled out to connect the two ports where i have the green arrows drawn? what about the port where the red arrow is, i assume its just blocked off? the reason i ask is because it doesnt seem to be easy to find a plate like the one below. it seems clear on this style that the oil and water vapor coming from the valve cover is vented and the crankcase gases that used to come to the rear most connection up get vented away



most of them have 3 ports(not shown) or 1 at the very rear like below. on this style i know the two front ports are connected in the plate by a milled void and the rear stock hose just plugs back on. Where does all that oil and water vapor go that is just being recirculated in this style? The crankcase vapors are still coming into the engine. Does this style dump more into your rear pcv potentially putting more oil into the intercoolers but the advantage is replacing the "Weak" stock front pcv system that can cause a boost leak?

In your first picture, that setup is retarded lol it bassically like you stated, just dumps the oil vapor directly back into the intake via the rear PCV lol

I guess the benefit being you have essentially eliminated your front PCV....


Now the second setup is the infamous block off plate
If you think about the design, how you buildup all your crankcase pressure in your Valve Cover... Now it makes sense why that particular plate is infamous for causing smoke to billow from your exhaust.

Bassically BSH was retarded in design, but I appreciate that they tried to offer something and were pretty much the first to do so.

[konarider94]

The BSH block off plate has a slot machined in the back so that the two ports that you are pointing at are connected.

The question I have, is why retain the catch can at all, if you are just venting to atmosphere? My plan is to tee the two ports together like in Shane's picture, and connect the tee directly to a PCV valve that dumps to atmosphere.
Eric

im pretty sure the bsh plate that corey has does not have the slot milled in the back. only the style with the rear most connection (like the IE picture i put on here) has the two ports connected like the one bsh and many others currently sell. seems like they are taking the environmental friendly route and discouraging the vent to atmosphere setup. like shane mentioned this is retarded because it dumps all of that farther up-stream in your intake tract. so the only benefit is to eliminate the front pcv. it wouldnt make sense to retain the catch can unless you were worried about oil and water dripping which im really not, ill just make sure it comes out under the middle of the car somewhere so it doesnt get the engine bay all nasty. obviously if you choose the re circulation setup you need a CC

[shiro1745]

In your first picture, that setup is retarded lol it bassically like you stated, just dumps the oil vapor directly back into the intake via the rear PCV lol

I guess the benefit being you have essentially eliminated your front PCV....


Now the second setup is the infamous block off plate
If you think about the design, how you buildup all your crankcase pressure in your Valve Cover... Now it makes sense why that particular plate is infamous for causing smoke to billow from your exhaust.

Bassically BSH was retarded in design, but I appreciate that they tried to offer something and were pretty much the first to do so.

If you do that, it's easy enough to block the rear PCV as well, so the issue is fixed right?
I have eurojet plate and a blocked rear PCV breather hose.

[konarider94]

If you do that, it's easy enough to block the rear PCV as well, so the issue is fixed right?

well it needs to vent somewhere. you would not want to block both off without some kind of vent. and Shane was saying that pushing that stuff back through the valve cover could be a cause of why it causes some cars to smoke because it builds up too much pressure. I like the eurojet plate you have and the bsh plate that corey has but i cannot find any like that. Who still makes them?

[DRAKLORE]

It's not retarded as long as it prevents it from going to the I take again and also vents.

These block off plates for the rear PCV that me and brad are working on will do just that

[LoKisSpYdR]

It's not retarded as long as it prevents it from going to the I take again and also vents.

These block off plates for the rear PCV that me and brad are working on will do just that

Any update? I'm very interested to see what you guys come up with. Just looking at your previous posts, is it possible to just do a thicker variation of the rear block off plate with a -10 weld on bung and T that into the in side of your front PCV's catch and then vent to atmosphere or recirculate to the IN side of your front PCV plate?

[DRAKLORE]

No updates as of yet, I was set back due to some lost/stolen VCs


That sounds fine, it's kind of pointless because that front port and rear port and connected so you don't need that passage to be opened like that.
Preferably atmospheric, remember you need that pressure to go somewhere

[LoKisSpYdR]

No updates as of yet, I was set back due to some lost/stolen VCs


That sounds fine, it's kind of pointless because that front port and rear port and connected so you don't need that passage to be opened like that.
Preferably atmospheric, remember you need that pressure to go somewhere

That's right, I remember reading that thread. That's BS! Freaking USPS, no wonder they're nearly extinct.

What I was saying was that I would Y together the front (out of the PCV block off plate) and rear (from the turbo block off plate) lines into the IN side of the catch can and the OUT side of the catch to atmosphere. This would alleviate the need for 2 catch cans and give the pressure an out. Am I making sense or would this not work as my mind has it working?

[martin0079]

I find it interesting that there is no information pertaining to the benefits of maintaining vacuum in the crank case. Nothing about how maintaining at least 8inHG of vacuum will net a gain of 15hp and the increased pressure differential across the rings creates an improved ring seal.

[DRAKLORE]

is that true? technically you make your power in boost so it doesn't matter,, correct me if im wrong.. im assuming you did some back to back dyno to get the 15hp number?

along with the fact that some early model FSIs didn't have the rear check valve, so you positively pressurizing the crankcase at that point? am i right?

just curious

[LoKisSpYdR]

I find it interesting that there is no information pertaining to the benefits of maintaining vacuum in the crank case. Nothing about how maintaining at least 8inHG of vacuum will net a gain of 15hp and the increased pressure differential across the rings creates an improved ring seal.

Where are you getting this figure from?
While it's understood that vacuum is good for a crankcase - pressure is worse than having less vacuum and PCV systems are severely flawed as a whole due to their reliance on check valves.

If there is a way to relieve pressure without forfeiting vacuum without check valves, please identify.

[martin0079]

is that true? technically you make your power in boost so it doesn't matter,, correct me if im wrong.. im assuming you did some back to back dyno to get the 15hp number?

along with the fact that some early model FSIs didn't have the rear check valve, so you positively pressurizing the crankcase at that point? am i right?

just curious

I did not do dynos to prove or disprove this however crankcase vacuum has been known to have this effect for many years. Alot of money goes into purchasing belt drive vac pumps to gain the the seal and power output benefits most of this occurs on cars that have been around for a long time and the research and product development has had a lot more time to go into all the little details. I searched this stuff up last year when I installed my catch can due to this I chose to temp hook up my boost gauge to my crank case to check how much the front or rear (which ever you want to call the silver tube from the valve cover to the tip seen it called both on here) vacuum it pulled and at wot it made it to 3inhg. This was enough for me to not put the stock back in but not enough to produce the power benefit. I have since not done much with it but have considered the vac assist pump from a tip car could be used in conjunction with a vac breaker on the valve cover to prevent too much vacuum.

I did also come across some infinity cars that were talking about there turbo kits blocking the ability to use the stock intake manifold port and wanting to move it to another location to pull the vacuum on the crankcase.

Any search in google for crankcase vacuum will give you a ton of pages on the beneifits. As far as because the car is turbo this wouldnt make a difference I doubt that very much if anything a turbo or supercharged car would have an even higher delta P across the rings.

I would not stick to trying to do this with the stock PCV. You are better off using a check valve that constiantly sees boost which the best canidate would be the brake booster check valve or a high end one for industrial use.

I am not sure what the positive pressure bit on the early pcv has to do with this I was only talking about this due to the fact that everyone likes to run VTA setups. The VTA setup is bad because nothing is pulling the blow by out so it will stick in places and cake leading to eventual positive pressure in the crankcase.

Where are you getting this figure from?
While it's understood that vacuum is good for a crankcase - pressure is worse than having less vacuum and PCV systems are severely flawed as a whole due to their reliance on check valves.

If there is a way to relieve pressure without forfeiting vacuum without check valves, please identify.

Like I said quick search in google will give you this number as the min net gain but for a 4cyl I would say its close to the max. I was not saying you should do this with the stock pcv but to do it without using check valves a vac pump is needed.

This was all done on my phone so excuse the mistakes.

[martin0079]

http://nutterracingengines.com/racin...uum_facts.html

Hear is one geared toward racing engines.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/lt1-lt4-mo...-switched.html

Here is some info about how bad things happen with VTA.

[CorneliusRox]

Okay, let me try and clear some things up:
1) My block off plate does not have a slot in the back.
2) The oil breather tube (furthest rear tube), does not actually enter the valve cover (accept for that part of the PCV that comes out right next to it, but with a plate like mine it doesn't), but it is just a path that goes from the front to the rear PCV like the N80 valve line.
3) I do not get smoke with my setup, however, I did take the filter off of the vent tube because once it gets coated in oil, it creates more back pressure than what I wanted.

So basically, if you have a block off plate like me, then you dont even need to do the rear block off like I did, but It leaves less room for possible vacuum leaks past the MAF if you cap it like I did.

Also, make sure that when you have the vent line drop, there are no sections where it 'belly's'.

[Darker_Side]

Hi guys,
This is actually my first post but I have been reading all over these forms a while and currently have used the forum data for retrofitted HID's, the custom intake mod, revision d-dv, and have installed an apr stage 1, and RS4 Reps.

I have been reading many threads on this issue as I think my 2.0t has the vcg and pcv issue as there is oil under the engine cover and around both sides of the valve cover which can drip down onto the turbo. However the vacuum on the oil cap is not crazy but there is definately some vacuum there.Throughout all my readings I have thought all along that there must be another solution besides a catch can.

I like the idea of not using a catch can for starters because of the additional investment and because of the cold climate issues. (I am not cheap with my cars in the least and do all service intervals early and myself, but I do not see the need of spending additional money on a vehicle that I often only keep for a few years, when there is a simple solution to the issue).

I think the solution you have came up with Corey is perfect and I am interested to see if it is possible to use the stock pcv system instead of a blockoff plate in order to maintain the stock look and decrease costs.

I was thinking that the two ways would be:
1. To gut the pcv as you mentioned. However, if the check valve is shot in my pcv then I won't even need to do that. Or,
2. It may be possible to make a gasket from gasket material that covers the side with the check valve and only operate the one output from the pcv and run the vent with a filter as you mentioned. ( I also thought I may grab a small hydrolic air breather with a fairly open filter to put on the end of the vent).

I was wondering if I should do the rear pcv block off as well? I was planning on doing both and replacing the vcg all at once. I would like this to be as dependible as possible.

Thanks for all the great input!

[nan07]

This is what the stock PCV looks like inside



The hole on the far right has some sort if check valve that could possibly be taken out with a screw driver



Also the orange diaphragm only broke once I pulled on it

[CorneliusRox]

This is what the stock PCV looks like inside



The hole on the far right has some sort if check valve that could possibly be taken out with a screw driver



Also the orange diaphragm only broke once I pulled on it

I've been meaning to throw your pics in here. thanks!

Would you mind taking a picture of the hole that the piston/diaphragm would normally close?

[nan07]

I've been meaning to throw your pics in here. thanks!

Would you mind taking a picture of the hole that the piston/diaphragm would normally close?

I didn't take any, I'll take some later when I'm off work

[fly300kts]

Don't want to sound like an ass and I start to wonder if you Guys don't want to keep this secret. If you do, just let us know but I have yet seen a clear explaination with pictures and components required with routing for this mod.

Phil

[CorneliusRox]

Don't want to sound like an ass and I start to wonder if you Guys don't want to keep this secret. If you do, just let us know but I have yet seen a clear explaination with pictures and components required with routing for this mod.

Phil

I swore I threw that video I made up on here... Sorry Phil!

So this is my setup. I need to modify the first post because I found that once the filter gets enough oil on it, it doesnt vent enough to be a good crankcase vent. So just run this setup with no filter. Also avoid making a belly in any of the lines, they must flow down so the vapor doesnt build up and fill the gap (creating back-pressure when it has to be pushed up the tube.



Also, you can kind of see the paths that the vents take here:



And just for fun, this is my 100% Vent to air setup, recommended for no application at all:

[ericpaulyoung]

I am trying that last method.
Eric

[CorneliusRox]

I am trying that last method.
Eric

guaranteed not to blow VC gaskets!

[fly300kts]

I swore I threw that video I made up on here... Sorry Phil!

You did and my reply was: I have a catch can and my blocking plate is different. Due to this fact, I really don't have my answer and really don't knoe what to do
I am not blaming you, don't take this the wrong way since you have a different setup than mine

Phil

[CorneliusRox]

You did and my reply was: I have a catch can and my blocking plate is different. Due to this fact, I really don't have my answer and really don't knoe what to do
I am not blaming you, don't take this the wrong way since you have a different setup than mine

Phil

Take a picture of your setup and throw it on here.

[fly300kts]

Voila



Phil

[nan07]

Here are some more pics





And if I understand the air flow correctly by the check valves

[nan07]

Don't want to sound like an ass and I start to wonder if you Guys don't want to keep this secret. If you do, just let us know but I have yet seen a clear explaination with pictures and components required with routing for this mod.

Phil

and Phil aren't you supposed to have all the answers? i kid, i kid

[fly300kts]

and Phil aren't you supposed to have all the answers? i kid, i kid

I wish...
Phil

[Toasted Coastie]

In your first picture, that setup is retarded lol it bassically like you stated, just dumps the oil vapor directly back into the intake via the rear PCV lol

I guess the benefit being you have essentially eliminated your front PCV....


Now the second setup is the infamous block off plate
If you think about the design, how you buildup all your crankcase pressure in your Valve Cover... Now it makes sense why that particular plate is infamous for causing smoke to billow from your exhaust.

Bassically BSH was retarded in design, but I appreciate that they tried to offer something and were pretty much the first to do so.

I have the BSH. I guess maybe I should reconsider it. Maybe I'll just throw a new OEM on there.

sent from the Times Two Tavern via Nexus 7

[CorneliusRox]

Phil, you could tap into the catch can, put a filter, and then make a plate like I did by the turbo, find a plug for where the oil separator joins the Valve cover, and then vent the oil separator to atmosphere.


On your plate, if it does have a slot that connects the oil separator to the other port, then you can do everything I said except pulling the oil separator line and plugging it's old hole.

[Toasted Coastie]

Shane,

I sent you an email through your site about this because your PM box is full......
Best,

Ron

[bpat1017]

Beautiful setup by the way. What confuses me is i ran the same setup here and it just led me to smoke like a chimney. Also what paint did you use to paint your parts like the coolant resevoir

Inside of a catch can (42DD) and the benefit!




And for those with a stock valve cover:




An what the ATP rear PCV is supposed to look

[bpat1017]

So what would be better? The bsh block off plate
http://www.bshspeedshop.com/bshstore...CV-Revamp.html
Or the Integrated plate?
http://www.intengineering.com/integr...0t-fsi-engines

is the block milled out to connect the two ports where i have the green arrows drawn? what about the port where the red arrow is, i assume its just blocked off? the reason i ask is because it doesnt seem to be easy to find a plate like the one below. it seems clear on this style that the oil and water vapor coming from the valve cover is vented and the crankcase gases that used to come to the rear most connection up get vented away



most of them have 3 ports(not shown) or 1 at the very rear like below. on this style i know the two front ports are connected in the plate by a milled void and the rear stock hose just plugs back on. Where does all that oil and water vapor go that is just being recirculated in this style? The crankcase vapors are still coming into the engine. Does this style dump more into your rear pcv potentially putting more oil into the intercoolers but the advantage is replacing the "Weak" stock front pcv system that can cause a boost leak?

[konarider94]

this style is better IMO than the two you put up. The two you posted are the same just different manufacturers.
http://www.intengineering.com/integr...apter-2-0t-fsi

the ones you posted push everything back into your intake farther upstream so it doesnt actually accomplish much by itself.

[Lemon123411]

Nice setup but are you blocking off your rear pcv here or are you venting it to the atmosphere?

What is the PCV?
The Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) system is used to pull oil vapor and blowby out of the crankcase/valve cover and keep the engine internals cleaner.

How does the PCV work?
The PCV works two ways:
1) [During Vacuum] Vapors are sucked from the valve cover through a one way check valve, through a tube, and into the intake manifold. The engines natural vacuum is used to suck the vapors in while it is sucking in air for combustion.


2) [During Boost] Vapors are sucked from the valve cover through a one way check valve, through a tube (known as the rear PCV), and into the turbo just before the charge air (boost). The turbo spooling will create a vacuum.




What fails on a PCV?
Almost always when a PCV fails, it is the one way check valve between the valve cover and the intake manifold. This allows the boosted air to be pushed into the valve cover, and can blow out seals and spray oil in your engine bay while making you lose boost.

What is bad about a PCV like this?
1) The fail. Obvious.
2) It leaves a lot of carbon buildup on your valves. It is true that a Direct Injection car will get carbon buildup slightly just by the pulses and valve timing, but the reason it is an issue on these cars is because of the PCV.
3) It leaves a pool of oil in the intercoolers which reduces their efficiency.

My Quick Solution
Removing the tube from the valve cover to the intake manifold and use these plugs to seal the holes. This will still allow oil in the intercoolers and even carbon on the valves (slightly less), but if your PCV failed, or you just want to make it so it cannot ever fail. This is a quick solution.

Find two plugs (3/4” OD), washers, and bolts like these. They can be found at an Ace Hardware, or Do It Best Hardware in the bolt section.

Then after removing the tube, install:


You are now bullet proof in regards to your PCV. All that for $5. Not bad.

NOTE: Some people may have a check valve in the 'rear PCV' tube that will make a clicking noise. Be sure to remove the check valve or to puncture it (if puncturing, make you you safely remove anything that could potentially fall into the turbo, that is BAD).

My Full Solution
This involves using one of the plugs from before to plug the intake manifold. You also need some 3/8” fuel line tubing (it works great for the heat and oil/blowby junk) (5ft was $6), a plate to cover the PCV area on the valve cover with one hole ($20), a T-fitting ($1), Two MPT fitting to barb hose 3/8” ($2), some hose clamps ($2.50), and a bit of sheet metal ($5).
First, we need to cover the tube that goes back to the turbo (rear PCV). Take your tube off and cut your sheet metal to match it like a gasket but with no hole so that when you tighten it down, there is a seal.

Second, remove the tubes and install your plate on the valve cover that replaces the PCV.
Now carefully route your line coming from the oil separator (furthest plug from the front of the engine) out so it is free on the side.
Install the first MPT fitting into the PCV plate. Install the second into the oil separator tube (use Teflon tape in order to make a seal. This is not a high pressure line).
Now you are almost done, take your line and route the hose down from the valve cover PCV plate, tie in the T-fitting so that you can route hose from your oil separator tube to the tee, then continue routing hose down, and finish up with zip ties to hold everything in place. Your end results should look like this:





NOTE: I eventually removed my cone air filter on the end of the vent line because it created too much back-pressure after getting saturated with oil.

This solution will keep oil out of your intercoolers, almost completely cure you of carbon buildup, and be completely robust in worry free. I have been running this setup for about three months and checked over everything yesterday to make sure there were no issues. It has worked flawlessly.

Will this hurt my engine?
No, this is how crank cases have been vented for many many years. However, because of emissions, this was implemented, and if you think about it, it is very similar to EGR.


NOTE: I am not liable for anything you do. This is just for everyone to use as information or inspiration.
Criticism Appreciated.

Enjoy


Some credit due to Shane for some conversations we had back and forth! Thanks again.

[DRAKLORE]

Sorry guys my box was full.

I used high temp engine paint for the bright colors. And just some satin black enamel for the black

I explained the PCV system using a dance club on fire to Ron (toasted cookies)
Lol I hope that helped!