The solution to chain rattle

[labmat]

I did my part and sent a message to your Marketing department, lets get his done... ;)

[Latebraker22]

email sent....

[Canton Racing]

Thanks guys. The response has been more then sufficient to catch some attention. We have our new products meetings on thursday where I will present the information and then we will go from there. I will keep you all updated.

[0000 V8]

You're too late. http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...3#post80868753

[IslandHydro]

You're too late. http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...3#post80868753

A couple questions: Are you thinking some sort of quick connect fitting screwed into this cap, such that you could unhook the accusump hose to spin off the filter cap during oil changes? Under normal circumstances, does the oil drain out of the filter with the engine off? If so, does air pressure build up in the filter prior to oil filling it up? And if that happens, what are the odds that you'd fill up the accusump with air rather than oil, rendering it rather useless?

[Canton Racing]

Our adapter will most likely have a 1/2 NPT fitting to make it easier to plumb fittings instead of having a 17mm drain plug. We will try to source some sort of quick disconnect fitting to go with them or to offer as an option. From what I understand of the way the motors are setup the oil does not drain out of the filters after they are shut off. In this setup all you would be doing is increasing the amount of oil being held in and after the oil filter. When the car is shut off it would hold that oil. To ensure that the Accusump doesn't overcome this pressure and discharge after you shut the engine off you would have to close the valve on the Accusump before shutting the car off.

[0000 V8]

Our adapter will most likely have a 1/2 NPT fitting to make it easier to plumb fittings instead of having a 17mm drain plug. We will try to source some sort of quick disconnect fitting to go with them or to offer as an option. From what I understand of the way the motors are setup the oil does not drain out of the filters after they are shut off. In this setup all you would be doing is increasing the amount of oil being held in and after the oil filter. When the car is shut off it would hold that oil. To ensure that the Accusump doesn't overcome this pressure and discharge after you shut the engine off you would have to close the valve on the Accusump before shutting the car off.

Canton Racing,

If you end up finding a good quick disconnect, Id be interested in getting it. I assume it will have to retain the 1/2" or even 3/8" inside diamter, something close to the hose ID. I can tap my new aluminum top for any size fitting. And FYI, you may want to look at 90 degree fittings.

Justin

[IslandHydro]

Canton Racing,

If you end up finding a good quick disconnect, Id be interested in getting it. I assume it will have to retain the 1/2" or even 3/8" inside diamter, something close to the hose ID. I can tap my new aluminum top for any size fitting. And FYI, you may want to look at 90 degree fittings.

Justin

0000 V8, have you found a valve yet? Are you going to have it be manual or automatic?

[IslandHydro]

I'm probably wearing out my welcome, but... In looking at the complexity of this, and how we're gonna end up getting a 1 quart shot of oil out of the deal, I'm wondering if a pump such as
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Heavy-Du...0f353e&vxp=mtr might not be a better option? It can pull oil from 5 feet down, so it doesnt need to be down low. Only downside (that I can see) is that you''d have to make two oil connections instead of one. Throw a pressure (low=on) activated switch on it, and it will shut off automatically once your main oil pump gets up to speed. Thoughts?

[IslandHydro]

Fleshing out the pre-oiler (pump version) concept:

Pump: http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Heavy-Du...0f353e&vxp=mtr
Pressure Switch: http://www.omega.com/Pressure/pdf/PSW-190.pdf
Check Valve: http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...5615_200335615

I'd envision a feed from the oil pan to the pump, then check valve, then pressure switch, then feed to the oil filter. The system could be totally automatic, with the pressure switch engaging the pump whenever the pressure dropped below a set pressure (eg 30 psi). I know this is not a new concept, but I wonder how it compares operationally (and ease of install) to the accusump. All said I think it's more compact than the accusump, and would provide a steady oil pressure / feed rather than a single shot. Thoughts?

[0000 V8]

Fleshing out the pre-oiler (pump version) concept:

Pump: http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Heavy-Du...0f353e&vxp=mtr
Pressure Switch: http://www.omega.com/Pressure/pdf/PSW-190.pdf
Check Valve: http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...5615_200335615

I'd envision a feed from the oil pan to the pump, then check valve, then pressure switch, then feed to the oil filter. The system could be totally automatic, with the pressure switch engaging the pump whenever the pressure dropped below a set pressure (eg 30 psi). I know this is not a new concept, but I wonder how it compares operationally (and ease of install) to the accusump. All said I think it's more compact than the accusump, and would provide a steady oil pressure / feed rather than a single shot. Thoughts?

Just get an Accusump and dont waste your time on this. They are proven in racing applications and have become the standard.

[Guitarmageddon]

[ProgMetalHead]

LOL!

Is chain rattle that grindy noise my car makes for half a second when I turn it on?

What is that annoying whine the car does on really cold starts that doesn't go away until RPMs drop to idle 800?

[Guitarmageddon]

LOL!

Is chain rattle that grindy noise my car makes for half a second when I turn it on?

What is that annoying whine the car does on really cold starts that doesn't go away until RPMs drop to idle 800?

Yes...that would be chain rattle. But as far as the noise, probably has something to do with the timing/fuel mixture being adjusted on cold starts. Not sure which it is, someone chime in? Because mine will sit at around 900 for about 45 seconds, then you can feel the car run smoother when it changes the timing/mixture, before the RPM's idle.

[Ali]

If anyone is interested in an accusump, I have a new 1Qt kit which I bought a while back but never used and am now going a different path. Please PM me if interested, willing to make a good deal.
Thanks.

[paul61]

Some interesting reading!
Dunno if I'm sold on the accumulator preventing further guide damage on the S4 but........many used it on the drag cars to prevent premature thrust bearing failure from using Lenco transmissions (no neutral).
It absolutely can't hurt, thats for sure!

[ProgMetalHead]

I was told a long time ago that the whine is normal, but in case it's not, I'd like to get it taken care of while I have CPO.
I'm not concerned about the rattle...it's really only for half a second.

[Canton Racing]

We should have pricing for the kit at some point today. We are going to be offering special pricing for anyone that emailed us with interest. If you want to get in on the special pricing email [email protected]

[Canton Racing]

pricing is available. Will most likely only offer the special pricing for the first run of caps so if you want one be sure to email [email protected]

[blackv8-s4]

I have an 05 s4 that developed the rattle in the last year at 82k. It just got worse by the week over the last 12 months. I am really worried about it so I ordered an accusump kit today from Canton. After everything I have read and experienced I am a believer in this solution to at least prevent damage from things flopping around in there on cold starts. But the funny thing is, Mine was really bad for the last month unless I cranked the engine a few times without starting it. And sometimes it was pretty bad even then. Then I changed my oil at 8500 miles instead of waiting until 10,000 which is spec and it all dissapeared. I am now at 600 miles on this oil change with only the faintest chain rattle on start up. I know that it will get worse as the oil gets older, but it does suggest that more frequent oil changing is a partial issue here. I also wonder if better oil, or a different viscosity would improve the length of time before the oil breaks down and the rattle returns. I plan on changing my oil more frequently now anyway, because if it is deteriorating to the point that the chain and tensioner components aren't properly lubricated or sealed, then what is it doing to the rest of my engine? My question is this: which kind of oil will cling to parts when the engine is not running? A 0w 40 was recommended earlier because it would pump up faster, but doesn't that also mean that it would run off parts and out of areas between parts like pumps etc after shut off? So doesn't it stand to reason that a 20w 40 for example, would leave more oil clinging to parts when it is not running. So thicker oil for more "cling" or thinner oil for quicker pump up?

[Canton Racing]

We are still waiting to receive enough orders to start this run. The response to actually placing the orders so far has been very underwhelming. We need sell about 10 of these in order to justify the setup time. If anyone is interested please email [email protected]

[BCsniper]

......Then I changed my oil at 8500 miles instead of waiting until 10,000 which is spec and it all dissapeared. I am now at 600 miles on this oil change with only the faintest chain rattle on start up. I know that it will get worse as the oil gets older, but it does suggest that more frequent oil changing is a partial issue here. I also wonder if better oil, or a different viscosity would improve the length of time before the oil breaks down and the rattle returns..........My question is this: which kind of oil will cling to parts when the engine is not running? A 0w 40 was recommended earlier because it would pump up faster, but doesn't that also mean that it would run off parts and out of areas between parts like pumps etc after shut off? So doesn't it stand to reason that a 20w 40 for example, would leave more oil clinging to parts when it is not running. So thicker oil for more "cling" or thinner oil for quicker pump up?

Do not start using a 20w40. Stick to the Audi recommended oil weights and just go with a smaller oil change interval. Most don't exceed 5,000 miles before changing. However this will not ultimately solve the problem. The rattle might go away for awhile, but not forever. Also just because you can hear the rattle come back does not mean the oil has degraded.

We are still waiting to receive enough orders to start this run. The response to actually placing the orders so far has been very underwhelming. We need sell about 10 of these in order to justify the setup time. If anyone is interested please email [email protected]

.....underwhelming response? Maybe the issue is that this "solution to chain rattle" is not a solution to the problem, not even a bandaid, more like just ear plugs. This just gets rid of the noise to help some of you guys sleep at night. You really think why your guides fail is due to the wear they receive from less than a second of slack immediately after a cold-start (I know I don't think that is the sole cause)? It's nice that a company jumped in to try to help our platform, but I think it's yet another gimmick item that a company will sell because people ask for it, not because there is an actual benefit from using it. Just because things can be adapted to work on our cars doesn't mean that we have to use them, but hell what do I know.........go for it if it helps you sleep better at night

[bioluminescent]

.....underwhelming response? Maybe the issue is that this "solution to chain rattle" is not a solution to the problem, not even a bandaid, more like just ear plugs. This just gets rid of the noise to help some of you guys sleep at night. You really think why your guides fail is due to the wear they receive from less than a second of slack immediately after a cold-start (I know I don't think that is the sole cause)? It's nice that a company jumped in to try to help our platform, but I think it's yet another gimmick item that a company will sell because people ask for it, not because there is an actual benefit from using it. Just because things can be adapted to work on our cars doesn't mean that we have to use them, but hell what do I know.........go for it if it helps you sleep better at night

From a fair amount of research, it's my understanding that chain rattle is the culprit in chain guides failing. The impression I was under was that the half second of chain rattle on start up, may a few times a day?, eventually wears down the poorly constructed guides to failure. Therefore, if chain rattle was eliminated, which I think people are claiming this system does and not just hide it, there would be no more wear on the guides. I'm by no means a mechanic though. Am I misunderstanding the cause to chain failure?

Obviously, at this point in our cars' lives testing can not be fully completed, but I really don't see any negatives to trying this set up.

[BCsniper]

From a fair amount of research

by this you mean reading through this very biased thread full of hypochondriacs?

this half a second of rattle, "may a few times a day",
...think again about that statement. The rattle only happens on a cold start (i.e. the car has been sitting all night). So at most you would get this once a day, maybe twice if you have a very short drive to work and the car sits for another 10 hours. The car wont make this noise on a warm start (if it does, you have problems), so really it does not happen all that often, and it only lasts for a second, do you really think this is the sole reason that these guides crack?

....like I said, most of us are not experts so most of the claims we all make can't be supported, but I would put my best guess towards the issue being excessive heat cycling along with just getting too hot then it was intended. Honestly I think pretty much all of the issues that the V8 S4's go through is due to heat. They put an engine that was too big for the engine bay so it gets way to hot with no way to dispel the heat which is why we get warped blocks, scored cylinders, timing components that don't last as long as they should, etc...

[0000 V8]

BC,

Canton is only responding to the community with what was asked of them. I can see how it would be frustrating for them because many members have talked about wanting a setup like this and yet no one wants to follow through.

You're right in the sense that this wont solve the problem of the worn guides completely, but it will certainly help some. Canton has been designing and selling there Accusump for many years and are a proven solution for pre-oiling engines and used in many race cars. The usefulness of this setup is not really questionable. Simple put, it's better than nothing.

[BCsniper]

BC,

Canton is only responding to the community with what was asked of them.

hence why I said "It's nice that a company jumped in to try to help our platform"
...to me it seems about on par with one of these shops selling a CAI to a V8 S4 owner. They are doing it because the customer specifically asked for it (and they can make a profit off the install), however they neglected to inform the customer that it gives no performance gains whatsoever and can actually diminish returns

Simple put, it's better than nothing.

see that's where I don't think so. Honestly I don't think this will have any affect to the wear of our timing components. Now to know this for certain it would take several people testing this pretty much from the start of an S4's life and run it for 50-100k miles since that's how long stock components last (actually my old S4 went 130k miles and above).

For full fledged race cars, airplanes, jets, etc I know pre-circulating the oil is helpful if not necessary, however I just don't think this is the case for our cars (however once again, I could be completely wrong.....but then again so could those on the other side of the argument)

[Canton Racing]

hence why I said "It's nice that a company jumped in to try to help our platform"
...to me it seems about on par with one of these shops selling a CAI to a V8 S4 owner. They are doing it because the customer specifically asked for it (and they can make a profit off the install), however they neglected to inform the customer that it gives no performance gains whatsoever and can actually diminish returns

The Accusump has been used for pre-oiling for over 30 years. We were not trying to sell a gimmick. We see this type of reasoning a lot as we don't offer products that are performance gain oriented. Our products are of a preventive nature. We design products to prevent costly failures and issues which makes people very skeptical. From the information we gathered mostly from this thread since we are not VW/Audi engineers we saw this as a pre-oiling issue. We felt that while the Accusump does not fix the root cause that it could help prevent this issue for those that are concerned about it. Since none of our traditional Accusump plumbing methods could be applied we needed to R & D an entirely new piece to make this work. We got a good response to the feelers and I pushed to have this product designed. Like we stated before we are not VW/Audi engineers and do not have experience with the intricacies of the motor but we do feel as if pre-oiling can help this issue.

[Latosa]

Hey guys , I always like to say "not impossible is just an opinion" after so many replies the only thing I can say is that my setup is been RUNNING strong,maintenance free ,and ZERO chain rattle for ONE YEAR NOW IN MY S4 since it was put in service ,also this is not the first time I used a accusump for my cars or customers ,I do frabrication work on drags cars for alot people and I always recomend the accusump for them. Regardless what order people may think that if it works or not ,I respect there opinion but is been working for me ! And me knowing some aeronautics for 18 years now as a full time job I can tell you almost every system in a Aircraft has a accumulator or a pre-oling system to prevent failures .So is up to you to try it out or not .As for canton racing I know there trying to help so is either you buy it or not ,all can say great product.

[s2carlo]

Hey guys , I always like to say "not impossible is just an opinion" after so many replies the only thing I can say is that my setup is been RUNNING strong,maintenance free ,and ZERO chain rattle for ONE YEAR NOW IN MY S4 since it was put in service ,also this is not the first time I used a accusump for my cars or customers ,I do frabrication work on drags cars for alot people and I always recomend the accusump for them. Regardless what order people may think that if it works or not ,I respect there opinion but is been working for me ! And me knowing some aeronautics for 18 years now as a full time job I can tell you almost every system in a Aircraft has a accumulator or a pre-oling system to prevent failures .So is up to you to try it out or not .As for canton racing I know there trying to help so is either you buy it or not ,all can say great product.

Totally agree with Latosa. Same for my system & opinion!
Even if it did not help for anything else I am happy I got rid of the horrable sound!

[KAL]

Just hurd from my indy. Will be adding my name to the list!

[TarlCabot]

I don't want to jinks myself, but this B7 has over 101k miles and NO chain rattle or other issues, all original parts and I just hit the track this last evening for some time slips and vids... check em out :/ (me thinks i need to re-think my shifts... 7.5k vs. 6.5-6.8k ???) maybe better 60/330ft and/or 1/8 ET/MPH !

[B6JoeS4]

I cannot believe this thread is still living. Looks like someone is just trying to make a bunch of money selling kits that do nothing but make a noise go away so guys can sleep better at night.

[KAL]

If the rattling stops doesnt that mean the chain has stopped rattling around and banging up against the chain components which is what causes wear overtime???

[speedshopmike]

wow that was a truly painful read.
guys, i'm newish and nobody here, but i owned/ran a (traditional, domestically oriented) speedshop for two decades, have been in the automotive performance aftermarket for many more years, and built more engines than i can recall.
so ima chime in w/ my 2 cents.
in no particular order:
first, i sold lots and lots of Canton product.
they make top grade parts.
the accusump is absolutely not a gimmick; it's very, very legit and some version of it is used basically universally in nearly all racing.
second, the chain guides are engineered to have the chains slide/roll around them, not slap upon them, creating stress risers (the place the first break will begin).
think about the amount of energy it takes to make that much noise so clearly audible through the cam covers, thru the hood, insulation, etc.
(slap your wife half that hard and see if she minds.)
the obvious take away here is that having oil psi built up prior to start, through anecdotal evidence supplied by several posters here, tells you that the a'sump eliminates the chain rattle by pretensioning the chains, thus removing impact damage, thus greatly reducing the chance of premature catastrophic guide failure.
does that mean the guides won't wear out in the long term?
no it does not; eventually, sooner or later, i reckon they will.
as well, by not having the tensioner itself flopping about until charged with oil it too should last notably longer, or forever if it doesn't clog - it's designed to apply a steady force, not bang around.
third - guys....for crissakes, help yourselves out - these internet forums aren't the source of all wisdom - it's clear just from this thread there's a whole lot of clueless and misinfo going around.
if you have product questions, go to the manufacturers' sites (or, god forbid, call them on the phone) and learn for yourself what a product does and how it works; you'll be able to make much more informed decisions.
fourth - as for canton, be grateful a big player took an interest in a relatively microscopic sales opportunity, not to mention a thread on a relatively obscure forum.
fifth - disclaimer - i have zero experience with these engines myself - i've been looking for the right S4 for about a year, my brother found and grabbed me what will hopefully be a great one, an 04 w/ 78k that isn't in my hands just yet and i haven't laid eyes on as it's well out of state.
anyway, a part doesn't know what name is on the valve covers, a motor's a motor when it comes to stuff like this - it's my belief that killing the rattle will enable the guides and likely the tensioners to live to and beyond their DIL.
fwiw, especially since i happen to have an accusump still laying around (i'm essentially retired) it'll be one of my first modifications to the car.
HTH someone, no offense intended.

[t28sentra]

I have to agree with Speedshopmike. I've been emailing Canton about this product and I appreciate their interest in our platform. This is something I'll be purchasing.

[KAL]

+1. I have added my info to the buyers list. I think the math is simple; here no sound equals a significant decrease or elimination of damage to the components from the chain.

[B6JoeS4]

BUT.

You still have to worry about the adjusters failing, which accounts for about half of the timing failures.
Heat cycles still make the nylon guides dry and brittle.

[IslandHydro]

BUT.

You still have to worry about the adjusters failing, which accounts for about half of the timing failures.
Heat cycles still make the nylon guides dry and brittle.

So, if I have this right the chain rattle is primarily due to the adjusters not being in proper position until oil pressure moves them there. Lets imagine that for some reason they (the adjusters) get stuck in the disengaged position, and the chain just continues it's loose rattling around with the engine running. Don't you think that would lead to rapid deterioration of all the parts the chain is smacking against, including the guides and non-engaged adjusters? If so, why do you think it's not a problem during the short time that the oil pressure hasn't come up to speed and the adjusters are out of position (start up rattle)? Why do you continue to say this can't be a fix, or at least an aid in reducing the issue?

[bioluminescent]

BUT.

You still have to worry about the adjusters failing, which accounts for about half of the timing failures.
Heat cycles still make the nylon guides dry and brittle.

By your own admission, you're ripping on something that can reduce the risk by 50% (33% if you include your heat theory).

[speedshopmike]

BUT.

You still have to worry about the adjusters failing, which accounts for about half of the timing failures.
Heat cycles still make the nylon guides dry and brittle.

if the adjusters aren't banging around they're far less likely to break, as i mentioned.
we can't help heat cycling; it goes with being an engine...but we can keep the chains from beating the crap out of the guides.
it's quite logical, Spock.