The solution to chain rattle

[CoolHeadS4]

s2carlo,

The aluminum part you see IS a piston. I have opened my sump and the only part inside is that piston. Before opening I have been able to push it with my finger after purging all air pressure.

If you are interested I can post pictures of the unit dismantled.

[8cylinders]

For gods sake can someone explain to a noob if this is works and if I was to get a shop to do it how much they would charge? Is it a major to install??

[s2carlo]

s2carlo,

The aluminum part you see IS a piston. I have opened my sump and the only part inside is that piston. Before opening I have been able to push it with my finger after purging all air pressure.

If you are interested I can post pictures of the unit dismantled.

Very interested, as that was my expectation.

I tried to push it back aswell (with the airvalve open) in order to prefill it but no luck.
I put this in to the supplier as I was afraid my unit was not working OK. They tried with a unit which they had in stock, same result as mine....

That is why I suspectet something to be inbetween....

[s2carlo]

Works, for 4 forum member.
Can be done yourself if your not afraid to get your hands dirty and have some tooling available.
Needs some preperation but can be done i 1 or maybe two days, pending on preperations

Costs, (for me) approx 700 euro's including materials & labour.
I will make a DIY during, or just after the wekend

[AA S4]

Wrong. There's a piston inside separating the air from the liquid.

Anybody have an idea on expected flow then? Just trying to work out what an acceptable line size and length would be...

[s2carlo]

I have 5m hose with o12mm with some curves & corners, the sump was @20psi. This seems to work.
I will monitor starting now.

[s2carlo]

Sad news.
An oilleak occured @ the fitting in the block.
A new, better, easier, standard hydraulics fitting was placed but the leak was not gone.

So I had to take the fittings out, uncouple the accusump and put the original sensor configuration back in

I will have the fittings fitted by the hydraulics guys (who also do carmaintenance) as the sump was working fine.
It just again takes time.......

[Latosa]

Sad news.
An oilleak occured @ the fitting in the block.
A new, better, easier, standard hydraulics fitting was placed but the leak was not gone.

So I had to take the fittings out, uncouple the accusump and put the original sensor configuration back in

I will have the fittings fitted by the hydraulics guys (who also do carmaintenance) as the sump was working fine.
It just again takes time.......

threads on the block is not the problem and the fitting ,like I mentioned before the factory plug seals because the bronze washer on it when a straight fitting is put on the block the only way to seal is to put teflon or go with a N.P.T fitting wich I don't recomend doing that since the N.P.T . fitting tapered and you can crack the threads on the block if not put with caution but it can be done .Thats why when I did mine I welded the fitting to the plug and still uses the bronze crush washer to seal that area .s2carlo let me know if it was clear what I'm trying to say.My grammar isn't good.lol By the way guys update my sump running strong no rattle at all!!!!!!since day one that it was put on service.

[siren]

I've had my 05 b6 s4 since march 2012 and this thing has had chain rattle since i bought it. Hate it but according to audi it's normal.
Ps until your guides break.

Im in the same boat as you.... i just recently bought a 2005 b6... and the chain rattles every first cold morning start up. But after that... i can turn on the car throughout the entire day and night Without any noise... i spoke with a mechanic who works on audi's.... and to my surprise... he said not to worry about it, as his own personal audi does the same.

But that doesn't sound like an acceptable answer.... if i dont get this extra oil pump, am i gonna be royally screwed with this slight chain rattle at start up?

[CoolHeadS4]

Anyone knows how high the oil pressure can reach in our engine? I have a 3 quarts accusump that we have cutted to make it 1 quart (One of my client use those 3 quarts on is aircraft refueller and he gave me one). I want to test it at 1.5 the maximum oil pressure to be sure the threads we cutted at the end are up to the task.

[ilko]

Don't know about this engine but my air-cooled 911 has a an oil pressure gauge that shows 2-3bar at idle and 4.5-5bar when on throttle. Hope this helps.

[CoolHeadS4]

here's the promised pictures. It took me long because the sump was at the machine shop being cut to make it a 1 quart from a 3 quarts.

On that picture you see it opened. The piston is the only part inside.
[IMG][/IMG]

On this one it's all assembled
[IMG][/IMG]

[s2carlo]

interesting. Where are you going to put it??

I am waiting to find time for a new hookup, after the first tries being unsuccesfull (oilleakage)

Anyone else did something?

[Brettannica]

My S4 has done 78,000kms has had oil changes roughly every 8-10,000kms. Previous owner owned 4 gas stations and a mechanical workshop and ONLY used M1 0w40. Although low miles (or kms) this car does not make a peep of noise. I think I'm kinda lucky!

That said, I will be watching this thread.... Prevention is better than cure

[CoolHeadS4]

interesting. Where are you going to put it??

Winter project. I will have plenty of time figuring that out once the car is stored for winter.

I was thinking installing the sump in the battery compartment after moving the battery to the trunk.

[Travis95320]

Hello everyone. I've been keeping up with this thread since I purchased a 2004 S4 about 8 weeks ago. It has cold start chain rattle that 2 seperate dealerships told me not to worry about too much. The car is going to JHM on Friday to have several items upgraded. While on the phone I asked the tech for a quote to install the Accusump unit and was basically told not to even bother with it. He said they've seen it tried on several S4s with virtually no benifits. I was basically told that I should just bite the bullet and schedule it for a timiming chain service (actually was told to bring it so they could hear it but it was implied that a service was the only way to go). I didn't feel like arguing with the guy who obviously knows more about my car than I do based only on info I've obtained from online strangers, but I still asked him for an install quote. Has anyone installed this system on a car that also has a slight warm start rattle? Just curious as to how bad the rattle can be and still have the Accusump be benificial.

[Latosa]

Has anyone installed this system on a car that also has a slight warm start rattle? Just curious as to how bad the rattle can be and still have the Accusump be benificial.


Well from my experience the accusump is good to your engine in diffrent ways 1. prime your system prevent dry start on all your mayor components 2.prime all oil related pressure sensing componets (example) cam tensioners ,timming tesioners ,oil pumps ect.3.compensate oil pressure loads durings hard accelerations and high revolutions 4.keep oil system to its demands were pressure is need it at all time even with engine off.The theory of accusump comes from the word accumulator and is been around since WWII it was used in aircraft in any system that I know starting with engine ,hydraulic,pneumatics and still up to date all modern a/c have accumulators with the same principle as the accusump system.For example my car 2004 s4 has 38000 when I got it ,I did put the accusump as soon I started reading about the rattle and getting it in my car since the system was put on service no more rattle at ALL !!!!!!!does this saves me from the chain and timming componets time will tell .Also I have been using accusump not only in this car also all other cars I have own like drag,roadracing and motorcycles all with same effect in reliability.So is your call if you bite the bullet !!!!!! on this.

[JoeD.]

I think this is a fix for chain slap not for the chain guides. Anytime you have metal on plastic you will have wear. This solution only prolongs the inevitable you will have to pull that engine at some point.

I do still like the idea of prelubing anything before start up.

That's what she said!


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[Latosa]

Correct you will still need to address this down the road with high mileage but the fact your charging the tensioners you are preventing the guide been hit by the chain and breaking it or cracking it will prevent a failure at start up wich is the rattle.

[Slobo7x]

I've been reading this thread from the beginning and i was wondering has anyone mounted this vertically? I mean there is a some space next to battery and in front of the car to just mount it like an overflow tank bottle..

Wish the OP would chime in and provide some feedback, as it's been a long time since he's had it..

[s2carlo]

finally got around to hooking the accusump up to the block (again)
Using the new fittings & sealrings it now seems oiltight and the sump seems to work, no more rattle..

First few days succesfull.
Keep you posted!

[ilko]

Awesome! Can't wait to see the full install procedure.

[Dirtracer603]

I made my own accusump system with various parts i conjured up . It eliminates my start-up rattle completely. It's temporary until I can tackle the timing rebuild.

[UberDave]

I made my own accusump system with various parts i conjured up . It eliminates my start-up rattle completely. It's temporary until I can tackle the timing rebuild.

Why wouldn't you leave it in place to help guard against future problems?

[IslandHydro]

So I think someone mentioned this earlier, but I didn't see anyone reply. Seems like when you first turn the ignition on (if that triggers the oil release switch) you would end up with too much oil in your engine. For example with the 3 quart version, your dumping 3 quarts of oil into what is hopefully an engine that is topped off with oil. Once the engine starts, and the oil pressure goes up, this 'extra oil' will be pumped back into the sump and your oil level would be back to normal. But there for a bit, between releasing the sump oil, and oil pressure coming up to normal, your engine is potentially over-filled. Any ramifications of this?

[Dirtracer603]

So I think someone mentioned this earlier, but I didn't see anyone reply. Seems like when you first turn the ignition on (if that triggers the oil release switch) you would end up with too much oil in your engine. For example with the 3 quart version, your dumping 3 quarts of oil into what is hopefully an engine that is topped off with oil. Once the engine starts, and the oil pressure goes up, this 'extra oil' will be pumped back into the sump and your oil level would be back to normal. But there for a bit, between releasing the sump oil, and oil pressure coming up to normal, your engine is potentially over-filled. Any ramifications of this?

I have about a 1 quart system on a button switch so no worries with over filling. I press the button for 3-4 seconds prior to tuning the key and I hold it until the motor fires up. No chain slap. Whats cool is, the way the solenoid valve I used is designed (piston stop valve designed like a check valve) I don't have to hold the button in, in order to recharge the accumulator....it does it automatically. The only problem I have is I have to occasionally drain the oil from the accumulator tank because it loses a bit of air into the oil stream and it eventually fills up with oil-no air left to pressurize the tank. Even with being installed in a vertical position so that the hose feeds from the bottom so the air stays at the top.. The Accusump kit has a sliding sealed piston to separate the oil from the air for this very reason.

[s2carlo]

hi latosa,
this is the procedure where you open the valve, put the airpressure to 60psi, back to 10psi and then put the unit back to normal operation??
What pressures do you set it to?

[Imola34]

I saw this information somewhere else in this thread, just wanted to add to it.

I have been working part time at a Vw/Audi dealership and just recently picked up my B6. It's got 96k on it at the moment and yes, when the car is dead cold, the chains make that jingle/rattle for less than a second on startup.

I brought the idea of pressurizing the tensioners to a couple of the other techs and the answer was a simple "why?". This issue of chain rattle would not fix the problem of the tensioner wear. In their opinion, this would just limit the sound. Wear would still take place.

Again, I know this has already been mentioned. I just wanted to add to it.


I am not saying you guys should avoid doing this because we could be wrong. I would like to see long term results

[B6JoeS4]

Yeah as I said earlier on in the thread, the rattle is purely a sound affect. This may be the solution to chain rattle but it has nothing to do with the longevity of the guides and since half of the failures are related to the adjusters going bad, this isn't fixing any problems.

Give it up. Service the chains at 80K or so.

[Imola34]

Yeah as I said earlier on in the thread, the rattle is purely a sound affect. This may be the solution to chain rattle but it has nothing to do with the longevity of the guides and since half of the failures are related to the adjusters going bad, this isn't fixing any problems.

Give it up. Service the chains at 80K or so.

Haha I'm at 96k. I'll be putting off a chain service for as long as possible. Or at least until I can afford some headers and other go fast goodies

[s2carlo]

well, the sound is a symptom. The chain is slamming to something else because the tensioners don't work (as they should) whithout pressure. This causes wear to the chain, the tensioners and the guides.
The pre pressurizing puts the tensioners in it's place, therefore no slapping chain and no noise.

It makes sure the tensioners do their work (with a little help) and therefore the chain doesn't hit other parts that are not ment to be hit by a loose chain..

SO I don't agree to the solution not helping.
I feel it is a design issue and think it's very stupid that Audi doesn't step up and takes (part) of the cost.
The chain was put in and ment to be OK for the life of the engine.....

[B6JoeS4]

The guides will still wear down with our without the chain rattling on them. Heat cycling the nylon is a big part of what causes them to become brittle. And still, more than half the time, the guides aren't the issue. The adjusters are.

Put the money into new timing gear and do everything once the right way and you will have another 80k years, maybe more because the newest revision are better than old 04-05 gear

[Dirtracer603]

Every car is different. Some chew up guides, some don't. Some have adjusters that wear out, some don't. Some get chain slap to the point it cracks a guide, many don't. I have seen high mileage S4's that had the timing chain service done and the guides/adjusters had hardly any wear. My car had one of the rarest forms of a timing system related incident-the solenoid valve on the electronic controller went bad and stopped working. I would up replacing it myself with the motor in the car. With all that said many people have cars where the guides, adjusters and cam controllers are fine, they are just experiencing cold start rattle because the oil system does not stay primed. Just think: If you never shut your car off, you wouldn't have cold start rattle. I know that wont happen and it's quite the analogy but it puts things in perspective. I have my accumulator pressure system on my car to extend the life of my motor till I can figure out how I want to tackle my timing components because I damn sure don't have extra time or money laying around to just snap my fingers and make it right.

[Canton Racing]

Hey guys,
I work for Canton Racing Products. We are the manufacturer of the Accusump. I've tried to read through the thread to see if I could help in any way. I figure the best I can do is simply open it up to questions. I've had two separate guys guys contact us about this so I figured I would dig a little deeper. My first question to the guys that have done this is how they have plumbed the Accusump. Usually we use spin on filter adapters to run oil lines for our Accusumps. However, as a lot of other german cars the S4 uses a canister style filter as opposed to a regular spin on style filter. We have yet to design a canister style adapter to remedy this issue but are working on it.

[dparm]

Hey guys,
I work for Canton Racing Products. We are the manufacturer of the Accusump. I've tried to read through the thread to see if I could help in any way. I figure the best I can do is simply open it up to questions. I've had two separate guys guys contact us about this so I figured I would dig a little deeper. My first question to the guys that have done this is how they have plumbed the Accusump. Usually we use spin on filter adapters to run oil lines for our Accusumps. However, as a lot of other german cars the S4 uses a canister style filter as opposed to a regular spin on style filter. We have yet to design a canister style adapter to remedy this issue but are working on it.

Good to hear.

[s2carlo]

From the guys i spoke to I know that the oilpressure sensor was used to plumb in to the block.
The oilsensor (m10x1) is standard screwed in to an adapter (M24x1.4-> M10x1) that is screwed in to the block

The way was different. What I know;
Latosa had a fitting welded to the original adapter to accomodate the sensor and the hose coupling.
I used an adapter (M24x1.5 - 3/8") in which a swivelling (banjo) fitting was screwed. The swiveling end was used to accomodate the hose fitting and an M10x1 thread was machined in the top of the fitting to accomodate the sensor.

Pretty straight forward.

Hey guys,
I work for Canton Racing Products. We are the manufacturer of the Accusump. I've tried to read through the thread to see if I could help in any way. I figure the best I can do is simply open it up to questions. I've had two separate guys guys contact us about this so I figured I would dig a little deeper. My first question to the guys that have done this is how they have plumbed the Accusump. Usually we use spin on filter adapters to run oil lines for our Accusumps. However, as a lot of other german cars the S4 uses a canister style filter as opposed to a regular spin on style filter. We have yet to design a canister style adapter to remedy this issue but are working on it.

[0000 V8]

S4carlo, where on the block did you do this?

[s2carlo]

It's on the backside of the block (latosa sent pictures) between the block and the "firepanel" just below the EGR.
I am preparing a write up on what I did. Will post in a few days

[0000 V8]

I don't see any photos.

[Canton Racing]

Would you guys use a different oil filter canister cover if it allowed plumbing of an accusump? I'm going to try to source a canister cover so our machine shop can figure out how easy it would be.

I'm also curious as to how many of you guys bring these to the track with any frequency.