ECU Swapping and IMMO Defeat/Clone, Need some advice

[DNasty777]

Alright guys here's the deal, I'm trying to find out if Staz's ECU will work in my car (as an upgrade to APR Stg 2+). Mine is an '03 and Staz's is an '04. From all the reading I've done I've gathered that the '03s are "updated" at the dealer to the '04 "AF" file. This is making me think it is do-able, but everywhere else it's saying years and part #'s are not interchangeable. Sounds mostly like hear-say as there are some examples of people running '03 boxes in '02s and other combos. Frankly, I'm pretty sure this will be do-able, but there is another problem.

The other obstacle in the way is the immobilizer. In order to get this ECU to work in my car (assuming years are interchangeable, as above) I'd have to have my immo cloned onto Staz's ECU (or Staz's immo defeated?). The problem is that I'd have to go to my local dealer and have them perform this (seriously, screw you audi for not providing the PIN/SKC anymore). I called the dealer and they said they could do it for a measily $160 , I then asked if they could swap them without updating the ECU software and the guy said they update all ECUs in for service, which will overwrite/delete the aftermarket software. No go there.

I then called Stratmosphere to see if they could do it and they said they couldn't, not being able to obtain the PIN/SKC from audi, etc and only the dealer can.

Is there any way to make this work? Hound AoA for PIN/SKC so I can do it myself? Ask dealer specifically to NOT update the ECU when swapping? Maybe APR will reflash after the dealer updates the ECU if I supply some sort of proof of purchase (a receipt from Staz)?

[Matt Devo]

short answer:

- ECUs are interchangeable as-is (all 03-05 with AF/AK part), no need to update; only 02s with -F part can not be used interchangeably
- no need to clone or defeat immo on either ECU (see below)
- use generic OBD-II usb cable (not genuine ross-tech cable) and VAG K+CAN Commander software to read 4-digit pins from both ECUs
- use VCDS to adapt the ECUs to the immo in the clusters in the "new" cars, using instructions on ross-tech's site for ECU adaptation

I've done this several times swapping ECUs and clusters, it's pretty easy

[DNasty777]

Ross-tech's site states that you need the 7 digit SKC (which audi no longer gives out) in order to do the swap. How are you getting around this? http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/car...ing.html#USED:

[Matt Devo]

Ross-tech's site states that you need the 7 digit SKC (which audi no longer gives out) in order to do the swap. How are you getting around this? http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/car...ing.html#USED:

you need either the 7-digit (one-time-use) SKC or the 4-digit (permanent) SKC. Ross-tech's updated wiki instructions handle either case: http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index...I_ECU_Swapping

[DNasty777]

Wow, you're a life (and wallet) saver.

Why can't it be an official Ross tech cable? Can I use an official one in "dumb" mode? I have both KII-USB and HEX-USB+CAN.

[Matt Devo]

Wow, you're a life (and wallet) saver.

Why can't it be an official Ross tech cable? Can I use an official one in "dumb" mode? I have both KII-USB and HEX-USB+CAN.

the VAG K+CAN Commander software uses a standard COM port, so if the cable you have can be used as a serial port (with assigned #), then you're good to go. I'm not entirely familiar with all the ross-tech cables, I just know the one I have only shows up under windows as a ross-tech USB interface, not a standard serial port, so I use a cheapo $8 ebay cable instead.

[khj677turbo]

I been needing to do this as well... Audi/vw wanted 360 dollars from me... yikes

[Pr0n]

I might be up too late, but how do you obtain the 4-digit PIN?

[rollerton]

All true, but fair warning: Be careful what Vag K+ Can / Kommander you decide to use. I can tell you from experience you have as good a chance at corrupting your software as you do reading the true PIN. But you can read the PIN from either the cluster or the ECU over OBD. I don't know if it's a limitation of the fake-chinese hardware or if it's their pirated software, but clicking the wrong button can make an ECU or Cluster useless instantly. I've had 3 different Chinese Vag K+ setups, and NONE of them worked properly.
And once you have the SKC you CAN use a real VCDS interface, just do the Immo adaptation in the cluster module.
Pretty sure ' Mpower ' would be able to help you out with this if you want to eliminate ALL risk. PM him, he's one of the few people who spent the coin on the right tool to work with Rb4 encryption. If I remember right, he can turn Immo OFF at the cluster level or change the SKC to any number you want.

[KFizz]

So not to thread jack or anything, but I'm in the process of buying an ECU with Revo Stage 3 on it. The ECU I'm purchasing has the immo defeated already. Does this mean I dont have to do anything? just slap her in the car?

[DNasty777]

Thanks for the insight rollerton! What vag commander software have you tried that didn't work?

Matt devo, same question, what software worked worked for you?

[rollerton]

The ones I bought were typical Ebay specials. They weren't cheap, one was $180. It didn't do shit. And I got nothing when I returned it.
The killer was when I took my car to a shop in town that had a variety of Chinese/ fake interfaces, they had one Vag commander that they used a lot, I asked if he'd read the SKC for me, "no problem" he says, he plugged it in, hit "read" and my cluster lit up. Then went dark.
That one click cost that guy $1k to get the car towed 120 miles to the dealer and the cluster replaced.
I know the safer way is to read the ECU and the SKC is in there if you know how to decode it....maybe that's how Matt is doing it?

[Matt Devo]

All true, but fair warning: Be careful what Vag K+ Can / Kommander you decide to use. I can tell you from experience you have as good a chance at corrupting your software as you do reading the true PIN. But you can read the PIN from either the cluster or the ECU over OBD. I don't know if it's a limitation of the fake-chinese hardware or if it's their pirated software, but clicking the wrong button can make an ECU or Cluster useless instantly. I've had 3 different Chinese Vag K+ setups, and NONE of them worked properly.
And once you have the SKC you CAN use a real VCDS interface, just do the Immo adaptation in the cluster module.
Pretty sure ' Mpower ' would be able to help you out with this if you want to eliminate ALL risk. PM him, he's one of the few people who spent the coin on the right tool to work with Rb4 encryption. If I remember right, he can turn Immo OFF at the cluster level or change the SKC to any number you want.

The issue you are referring to is attempting to read the cluster PIN, since it is encrypted. Trying to do this with VAG K+CAN Commander is definitely bad, as others on the forum have found out. But there's no issue reading the ECU PIN as far as I know.

So not to thread jack or anything, but I'm in the process of buying an ECU with Revo Stage 3 on it. The ECU I'm purchasing has the immo defeated already. Does this mean I dont have to do anything? just slap her in the car?

yes, plug/play. The only issue is that since you aren't adapting the ECU to your system, the ECU will still list the VIN of the vehicle on which it was last adapted. But if you were to try and adapt the ECU to your system, the Revo programming would revert to stock mode (ask me how I know), so it's better that you just leave it alone.

Matt devo, same question, what software worked worked for you?

VAG K+CAN Commander v1.4 (CHINA). As per above, use it only to read the ECU pin, don't try anything with the cluster or you'll be sending it to mpower for repair.

[DNasty777]

Damn that sucks rollerton. I know there are other ways, k0mpressed had a DIY for it but that includes bench flashing, using hex editors, and having a general knowledge of hexadecimal, all of which I have no access to and no knowledge of.

Thanks for the clarification Matt!

[KFizz]

yes, plug/play. The only issue is that since you aren't adapting the ECU to your system, the ECU will still list the VIN of the vehicle on which it was last adapted. But if you were to try and adapt the ECU to your system, the Revo programming would revert to stock mode (ask me how I know), so it's better that you just leave it alone.

Consider it left! Thanks

[rollerton]

My opinion is the "safe" and easy for sure way to be fixed would just be to send your cluster to Tom ( Mpower ) and have him turn the immo off at the cluster. Plug your ECU in and drive. Or possibly have him read the SKC, and you can swap parts out at will and re-adapt each time.
But..maybe Matt knows this- I think once an ECU is adapted to a car (immo) it stays adapted. Meaning if you have 2 or 3 ECu's and they've even been adapted, you can simply reinstall and drive?
I know it works with clusters, I have 3 clusters adapted to my car right now, no programming needed to swap one out.
And my old ImmoIII VW GTI I had 2 ECU's I could swap back and forth.
If you think you'll be doing a lot of swapping or software changes then have Matt tutor you on the right tools, otherwise I'd stay sway from the Chinese stuff, too risky and it gets expensive if it doesn't work.

[Matt Devo]

My opinion is the "safe" and easy for sure way to be fixed would just be to send your cluster to Tom ( Mpower ) and have him turn the immo off at the cluster. Plug your ECU in and drive. Or possibly have him read the SKC, and you can swap parts out at will and re-adapt each time.
But..maybe Matt knows this- I think once an ECU is adapted to a car (immo) it stays adapted. Meaning if you have 2 or 3 ECu's and they've even been adapted, you can simply reinstall and drive?
I know it works with clusters, I have 3 clusters adapted to my car right now, no programming needed to swap one out.
And my old ImmoIII VW GTI I had 2 ECU's I could swap back and forth.
If you think you'll be doing a lot of swapping or software changes then have Matt tutor you on the right tools, otherwise I'd stay sway from the Chinese stuff, too risky and it gets expensive if it doesn't work.

I recommend against disabling the immobilizer in the cluster for obvious (anti-theft) reasons, and based on consultation with Tom/mpower feel that reading the pin from the ECU (*not* cluster) is safe and non-destructive. I'll try to do a write-up on this sometime soon, and can provide the software to those that need it.

As for adaptation, once an ECU is pair with your cluster, it can be swapped in/out with any other paired ECUs indefinitely.

[khj677turbo]

I recommend against disabling the immobilizer in the cluster for obvious (anti-theft) reasons, and based on consultation with Tom/mpower feel that reading the pin from the ECU (*not* cluster) is safe and non-destructive. I'll try to do a write-up on this sometime soon, and can provide the software to those that need it.

This would be fantastic.. I have had my REVO tuned ecu in my trunk since October because I haven't found a way to defeat the immobilizer in a way that made sense or was financially practical

[Matt Devo]

This would be fantastic.. I have had my REVO tuned ecu in my trunk since October because I haven't found a way to defeat the immobilizer in a way that made sense or was financially practical

my write-up would be on reading the 4-digit pin from the ECU and using that with VCDS to adapt the ECU to the immobilizer, not to defeat the immobilizer (for which there are other write-ups already, and others on the forum who can provide the service). But, since you have a Revo-flashed ECU, adapting the ECU to your immobilizer will cause the software to revert to a stock-like tune (compatible with whatever injectors the tune was originally for), necessitating a reflash from your local Revo dealer or Revo itself (what I had to do).

[DNasty777]

Is that only for REVO or all tunes?

[Matt Devo]

Is that only for REVO or all tunes?

I don't know, I'd assume it's something that all flashed tunes do but I'm not sure. With older ECUs that have physical chips on them, it's not an issue at all.

[DNasty777]

Bump

Has anyone adapted the immobilizer that had APR software on it? Did you loose it?

[Charles.waite]

You could always just buy the tune from Revo/APR.


What? I'm just saying...

[DNasty777]

I know.

There's a couple reasons I want to do it this way though. It's cheaper, more fun (I get to wrench a little more), and I'm helping out a fellow 'Ziner.

[Matt Devo]

You could always just buy the tune from Revo/APR.

What? I'm just saying...

So you're arguing that there should be no secondary/used market for flashed ECUs? I understand the need to protect the company's product/IP, especially given that we're dealing with software and not a physical chip, but that doesn't automatically trump the customer's right to resell their ECU and transfer the software license to a new owner. It's beneficial to everyone to have the policies/procedures for each tuner documented.

[Charles.waite]

So you're arguing that there should be no secondary/used market for flashed ECUs? I understand the need to protect the company's product/IP, especially given that we're dealing with software and not a physical chip, but that doesn't automatically trump the customer's right to resell their ECU and transfer the software license to a new owner. It's beneficial to everyone to have the policies/procedures for each tuner documented.

Oh I agree, I was just being a jackass!

[diagnosticator]

Matt,

Looking forward to the write up you described. Any progress on that? No rush, just wanting to have this capabilty. I bought a VAG K+ CAN Commander with a dedicated cable, that is supposedly equipped with a license in the chip in the cable interface, to enable the software functions. I have not really tried to use it yet being a bit leary of the possible complicatons.

[Info@EuroCode]

If you are trying to swap a chipped ECU from one car to another, you are going to lose the programming...the programming is not transfereable from car to car.

When you attempt to to resku the ECU (match the key and cluster) it will change the VIN that was coded on the ECU to that of the new car. Once this is done, any programming on the ECU will revert right to stock. It is a little Easter egg that is placed on the programming from the tuners.

Some software companies offer a warranty transfer, but this only applies to the same car and not swapping ECU's.

Matt Devo can attest to this, as he was faced with this very same situation. If you are trying to do this with stock programming, you will not have any issues. Just do not buy an ECU thinking you will get the previous owners flash!


Before you guys get your panties in a bunch, this is for security purposes and to keep people from copying the entire binary/hex from one EPROM to another, then pairing that binary/hex to another car (essentially stealing the programming)

[VegasUSP]

If you are trying to swap a chipped ECU from one car to another, you are going to lose the programming...the programming is not transfereable from car to car.

When you attempt to to resku the ECU (match the key and cluster) it will change the VIN that was coded on the ECU to that of the new car. Once this is done, any programming on the ECU will revert right to stock. It is a little Easter egg that is placed on the programming from the tuners.

Some software companies offer a warranty transfer, but this only applies to the same car and not swapping ECU's.

Matt Devo can attest to this, as he was faced with this very same situation. If you are trying to do this with stock programming, you will not have any issues. Just do not buy an ECU thinking you will get the previous owners flash!


Before you guys get your panties in a bunch, this is for security purposes and to keep people from copying the entire binary/hex from one EPROM to another, then pairing that binary/hex to another car (essentially stealing the programming)

Definitely following this thread as I have a Revo loaded Ecu that I am going to install. From your post it sounds as if I'll just do the immo defeat to keep the software.

[DNasty777]

If you are trying to swap a chipped ECU from one car to another, you are going to lose the programming...the programming is not transfereable from car to car.

When you attempt to to resku the ECU (match the key and cluster) it will change the VIN that was coded on the ECU to that of the new car. Once this is done, any programming on the ECU will revert right to stock. It is a little Easter egg that is placed on the programming from the tuners.

Some software companies offer a warranty transfer, but this only applies to the same car and not swapping ECU's.

Matt Devo can attest to this, as he was faced with this very same situation. If you are trying to do this with stock programming, you will not have any issues. Just do not buy an ECU thinking you will get the previous owners flash!

Thank you for the definitive answer!

Before you guys get your panties in a bunch, this is for security purposes and to keep people from copying the entire binary/hex from one EPROM to another, then pairing that binary/hex to another car (essentially stealing the programming)

If its only for security of IP and proprietary software/programming, why only allow warranty transfer to the same car? IMHO the security bit may true but I also think they are doing it to get more money.

[rollerton]

That's how it goes. Can't adapt a tune to another VIN#.
Thus the simplicity of turning the Immo off at the cluster. ...I agree the anti-theft feature is a big deal for most people, but you could always do a kill switch or some...other.. thing? I wonder if anyone has actually run a non-adapted ECU in a different car? I know the coding can be touchy if everything isn't 'perfect", some modules require all errors cleared and certain requisites met or you can't change soft coding, so I wonder if you can just *plug it in* and drive if Immo is off?

[lookaught]

When swapping an immo-defeated ECU into my car, what adaptation values need to be checked and copied to make sure everything in my car still works? The ross tech wiki talks about recoding the pin for immo purposes (is this the last four digits of the 14 digit code??), but it also says to make sure all relevant coding and adaptation values are transferred... which should I transfer?

[boy412]

Informative info...thanks to Matt Devo, rollerton, and (as always) diagnosticator.

[Matt Devo]

That's how it goes. Can't adapt a tune to another VIN#.
Thus the simplicity of turning the Immo off at the cluster. ...I agree the anti-theft feature is a big deal for most people, but you could always do a kill switch or some...other.. thing? I wonder if anyone has actually run a non-adapted ECU in a different car? I know the coding can be touchy if everything isn't 'perfect", some modules require all errors cleared and certain requisites met or you can't change soft coding, so I wonder if you can just *plug it in* and drive if Immo is off?

see below...

When swapping an immo-defeated ECU into my car, what adaptation values need to be checked and copied to make sure everything in my car still works? The ross tech wiki talks about recoding the pin for immo purposes (is this the last four digits of the 14 digit code??), but it also says to make sure all relevant coding and adaptation values are transferred... which should I transfer?

just copy over the soft coding, then do a throttle body adaption on the new ECU.

[boy412]

- ECUs are interchangeable as-is (all 03-05 with AF/AK part), no need to update; only 02s with -F part can not be used interchangeably

What about an ECU with a "BC" suffix? Will that work in a 2003 (which currently has an "AF" suffix after the p/n)?

[Bische]

[lookaught]

just copy over the soft coding, then do a throttle body adaption on the new ECU.

I know how to do a TBA but can you explain how to copy all the soft coding?

Sorry I'm not super familiar with VAGCOM, I know the basics but don't use it often. Thanks for you help!

[Matt Devo]

What about an ECU with a "BC" suffix? Will that work in a 2003 (which currently has an "AF" suffix after the p/n)?

yes, it should. 2002 is the only year that doesn't play well with others

I know how to do a TBA but can you explain how to copy all the soft coding?

Sorry I'm not super familiar with VAGCOM, I know the basics but don't use it often. Thanks for you help!

look at the value for the soft coding for your current ecu, then set the coding of the new ECU to the same value

[Pr0n]

I know how to do a TBA but can you explain how to copy all the soft coding?

Sorry I'm not super familiar with VAGCOM, I know the basics but don't use it often. Thanks for you help!

Ignore the circle. The "soft coding" is on the second dialog box on the left. You would need to save that number for most (maybe ALL, someone else can provide better insight) modules. When you put in the "new" ECU, you'd code all the modules back with that soft coding number, that way you won't have to remember each individual setting you had for each control module, as the soft coding would have all the settings defined. Mind you, the Adaptation is NOT part of the soft coding, so you'd have to recode that manually, but those are rarely changed unless you (or the previous ECU owner) did some deep configuration & tweaking (like I have).


http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/1...nelogin0yr.jpg (sourced from http://www.seatibiza.net/foro/showth...nuales-y-dudas )

What is "Phil Collins" doing in your mod list?

[lookaught]

Awesome, thanks! So I just click through and check each module for the soft code and change any that are different on the replacement ecu using the "recode" button? I think the only adaptation values I have changed are to make the door locks all unlock with one push of the button and to make the remote roll down/up the windows.

Regarding the modules... is it safe to only do the modules that are listed in the auto scan for my car? There are a TON of modules and many clearly have no application for my car (like "sliding door" and "diesel pump"), but do you think the auto scan list is comprehensive for this model? It's generic to the B6/B7 platform i believe, so I'm guessing that list will include every relevant module and also some that have no bearing on my car.

Thanks again for the help!


also, I run genesis 430 injectors and at the time when I was writing the mod list in my sig I think I was actually listening to some Phil Collins, which I think is far superior to the Genesis days, so I put his name in instead. Though I'm changing htem to 550s that are not branded genesis so I guess I'll need to change that soon.