(Öperator's) - K0R-GT to EFR Build

[Operator]

Yep. Still a little confused with the different settings I have vs another B7 A4 2007 TIP that also has a K04 tune. But I'm ironing it out slowly.

[jimrobbington]

I've already got a couple inches of wet snow so far tonight. You still going to be able to dyno on Thursday?

JR

[Operator]

As long as it stops in the morning, and the sun is out the rest of weds..... My appt is in the afternoon on thurs, so that "should" be enough time for the roads to dry up. We'll se.

[jimrobbington]

As long as it stops in the morning, and the sun is out the rest of weds..... My appt is in the afternoon on thurs, so that "should" be enough time for the roads to dry up. We'll se.

Just finished shoveling the driveway. 8-10 inches here! It is heavy snow too, very wet.

JR

[Operator]

Well the roads here have melted and dried for the most part. As long as it doesn't snow much again tonight, I'll be down tomorrow.

[Arin@APR]

Have you logged boost on the road? RPM, Boost actual, Boost Request and Wastegate duty cycle from 1500 PRM to redline in 4th gear?

Since this is not our turbocharger, it's possible the wastegate settings could be completely different, which may cause issues with boost control.

Under 12.5 PSI by redline does not look correct.

[Operator]

dynolog by DMK, on Flickr

dynolog2 by DMK, on Flickr

Thanks Arin for the intel, I'll add that to the list for my data logging session. These two docs above are a little more detailed. Let me know if you gather any more info from them.

[jimrobbington]

Definately looks better, but still not right. Shouldn't the turbo hold boost, and not peter out like a K03?

JR

[Arin@APR]

Boost on dynos tends to look a little different compared to boost on the road, but here's some road data I have.

Essentially I'd expect to see around 19-21 PSI from around 3000-5800 RPM's if you're near sea level. It should then taper towards redline, and by 6800, depending on weather/altitude and other environmental factors I'd expect to see it around 15-17 psi. Duty cycle was around 68 after boost onset and tapered up to around 80 by redline so it doesn't look like there's too much headroom left if you're higher in altitude or have a small boost leak.

Are you at really high altitude? Have you tried the 93 octane file with 93 octane fuel and no water/meth? I'd try that to make sure the w/m is not causing any strange behavior.

Also, what does your mass airflow look like? I'm near sea level and on this particular day it was around 250 g/s by 6800 RPM which is pretty good.

[jerseybrian]

Essentially I'd expect to see around 19-21 PSI from around 3000-5800 RPM's if you're near sea level. It should then taper towards redline, and by 6800, depending on weather/altitude and other environmental factors I'd expect to see it around 15-17 psi.

Little off topic, but I'm at stage 2+ w/ stock KO3 and I'm seeing a spike of 25psi and then holding about 23psi from 3000-5800rpms and then it gradually falls to 15psi to redline. I figured this was due to a boost leak... are you trying to say that this is normal?

[jimrobbington]

Little off topic, but I'm at stage 2+ w/ stock KO3 and I'm seeing a spike of 25psi and then holding about 23psi from 3000-5800rpms and then it gradually falls to 15psi to redline. I figured this was due to a boost leak... are you trying to say that this is normal?

Yes, that is completely normal for a K03.

JR

[solaris10]

..Great thread, some pretty good numbers there

[oregonaudi]

Your boost figures are looking pretty close to what I have been seeing. I don't have a VAG COM and haven't had time to get to a dyno, but my KOR peaks at 20, holds at 19, and then tapers off. However, it doesn't taper off nearly as quickly as yours.
Anyone have a VAG COM they want to send me? I swear I won't steal it.

[Operator]

Boost on dynos tends to look a little different compared to boost on the road, but here's some road data I have.

Essentially I'd expect to see around 19-21 PSI from around 3000-5800 RPM's if you're near sea level. It should then taper towards redline, and by 6800, depending on weather/altitude and other environmental factors I'd expect to see it around 15-17 psi. Duty cycle was around 68 after boost onset and tapered up to around 80 by redline so it doesn't look like there's too much headroom left if you're higher in altitude or have a small boost leak.

Are you at really high altitude? Have you tried the 93 octane file with 93 octane fuel and no water/meth? I'd try that to make sure the w/m is not causing any strange behavior.

Also, what does your mass airflow look like? I'm near sea level and on this particular day it was around 250 g/s by 6800 RPM which is pretty good.

I'm currently running the 100/104octane program with 100oct and w/m. I tried the 93oct tune with no w/m but still with the race fuel, and the AFR's didn't really change. And I'd say I'm at a high altitude (5,000ft+) and being in Colorado, the temps have been under 65 for awhile now. And the simple logs I've done, my MAF's don't seem to go past 198g/s. I'll run more of those when I get home, but the more in-depth logging will have to be done once I get to the shop. Thanks alot Arin for the info!!!!

[AudiA4_20T]

I'm currently running the 100/104octane program with 100oct and w/m. I tried the 93oct tune with no w/m but still with the race fuel, and the AFR's didn't really change. And I'd say I'm at a high altitude (5,000ft+) and being in Colorado, the temps have been under 65 for awhile now. And the simple logs I've done, my MAF's don't seem to go past 198g/s. I'll run more of those when I get home, but the more in-depth logging will have to be done once I get to the shop. Thanks alot Arin for the info!!!!

AFR is fine but timing pull is more important. Make sure to keep an eye on it

[CorneliusRox]

AFR is fine but timing pull is more important. Make sure to keep an eye on it

idk, I agree, but his AFR was a bit lean for my liking.

[Arin@APR]

idk, I agree, but his AFR was a bit lean for my liking.

Don't go by dyno readings. If he has a cat, it's not accurate. If it was really "leaning out" the throttle would most likely slam shut.

Log it with vag-com.

[CorneliusRox]

Don't go by dyno readings. If he has a cat, it's not accurate. If it was really "leaning out" the throttle would most likely slam shut.

Log it with vag-com.

good to know! thanks

[drumnjuny]

seriously considering a KOR right now... GT28 is where I want to be but i'm afraid of a lack of reliability

[Arin@APR]

Since you're APR tuned, check out our kit.

Direct bolt on. In stock. Comes with every part you need. :)

http://www.goapr.com/products/turbo_...t_fsi_k04.html

[AudiA4_20T]

seriously considering a KOR right now... GT28 is where I want to be but i'm afraid of a lack of reliability

This thing puts out GT28 numbers

Since you're APR tuned, check out our kit.

Direct bolt on. In stock. Comes with every part you need. :)

http://www.goapr.com/products/turbo_...t_fsi_k04.html

Arin any actual dynos of your kit? Every one I've seen puts out a bit less than the K04 even on happy reading dynos

[vdubjetta02]

the only time I have been impressed with the S3 kit was on a Quattro, DSG, A3. And that combo right there has a lot of advantages over the A4.

[jimrobbington]

the only time I have been impressed with the S3 kit was on a Quattro, DSG, A3. And that combo right there has a lot of advantages over the A4.

Not to mention, the K0R is half the price of that S3 kit

JR

[Operator]

Have you logged boost on the road? RPM, Boost actual, Boost Request and Wastegate duty cycle from 1500 PRM to redline in 4th gear?

Since this is not our turbocharger, it's possible the wastegate settings could be completely different, which may cause issues with boost control.

Under 12.5 PSI by redline does not look correct.

I'm going in on Weds, to get some logs. Anything else you recommend getting looked at or specific sets of addresses?

[Arin@APR]

www.goapr.com/support/datalogging.php

group 5 is always good to see.

[RAI Motorsport]

I looked over the logs and see a few things worth looking into. Keep in mind everything i am about to say is based on a car running properly with all equipment working. Also it is based solely on the limited datalogs I have.

1. The car runs on the rich side. Not because anything is wrong, but because it is what the ecu is requesting during WOT. Around 4000 rpm AFR drops into the low 10's. But the requested is also their and correction is very minimal. Direct injection should not have to go under 11.5. I like seeing FSI cars running 12:1 under load.

2. Mass Air Readings are low. About ~60 g/s low from my loose estimations. But iirc, you live in high altitude? This may be something to look at.

3. Timing pulls are very low, roughly 3 degrees nearing redline, and actual timing is very high. This should be a good thing. Timing is running very aggressive at 25 degrees!! make sure water meth is on here. But with the lower load readings this may not be as aggressive as it looks. Also, i need another log that shows intercooler effectiveness. Just sample ambient temp, and iat with no water meth. I cant remember what intercooler you have. A really great intercooler should have about a max 20 degree split at redline.

4. Boost request vs actual is fine per the request. The turbo is still generating a bit more pressure than the request is asking for in almost every individual sample. Their is a few instances when the turbo generates a tiny bit less, but its not even measurable on a boost gauge. ( example : Specified is 1890mbar, actual is 1850. In virtually almost every other line requested values are lower than actual after the turbo is spooled. ex requested is 2150, actual 2290.) These logs show different from the dyno graphs.

**-in regards to this, i still needed the boost logs the way i asked ( 003, 115, 119 ). Sampling the way APR recommends is great for overall viewing, but it comes at the cost of resolution. You have about 2 frames per second this way vs 6 frames per second. The overall is very useful, but we need the resolution right now.

5. Calculated engine load is a bit weird, but again, this could have to do with the low maf readings and declining boost pressure. It could be the way the tune is developed, or altitude, or the cost of tea in china, I am really not sure about this. I dont have experience with the APR files in regards to this.

6. Fuel delivery looks pretty good. The rail pressure is solid, really good actually. the low side starts to decline in the higher rpm, this is normal and not impacting the rail pressure. You have room in the fuelling to grow.


Try unplugging your maf and see how the car operates. Lets see if their is a relationship between the low maf readings, and the rich afr's. It doesn't really look like their will be, but it never hurts to do diligence. Also, inspect the spark plugs, i have an alternate for you to try if they look cooked. Spark strength can have a lot of impact on what we are seeing.

Your dynos are pretty solid. The dyno dynamics is a real heart breaker, and I was very close to buying one instead of the mustang. But Mustang was willing to make a better deal. Given your car is a automatic, and knowing dyno dynamics, it is safe to say you are right on par with Wills car in most area's. Granted he was not really tuned and we were running a bit more pressure. It may not be a terrible idea to try the MBC in your situation. Just be sure to check everything else out, and when you are setting it, make sure you log.

Last, answer your phone!!! I just wrote all of this so you dont call my cell this weekend when i am no where near your logs!!

[Operator]

Glad I was able to catch you before you left, my bad for not doing it 30mins sooner, so you didn't have to repeat everything you just wrote. I'll start working some some of the things you mentioned. Also I'm driving down to Oklahoma, so that'll give me an idea on how much the altitude in effecting my MAF. I'll look into swapping out the plugs when I get back. I also ordered the same filter as Will so I can swap out my Spectre. And I'll run the car without w/m to check out the IC efficiency, but in the past when I've done it (no logs) it seemed to still more than do the job without the w/m. Thanks for the input. I'll see what suggestions APR has too, to get the most out of their tune.

[Arin@APR]

I have the logs. I'll let you know what's up!

[Operator]

Thanks, looking forward to your thoughts.

[Arin@APR]

Found the issue. You're running old Hybrid K04 software, which is not correct. Wayyyyyy wayy way back, before there was anything such as an OEM S3 K04, we had a hybrid turbo with software. That's what you have on your car.

I've asked the engineers to make new software.

-Arin

[jimrobbington]

That's awesome news! So you can get updated tuning that matches your turbo finally. Bad news is you'll have to run another dyno.lol.
JR

[jimrobbington]

So does that mean that the vendor just had the old software and wasn't aware they needed to update?

JR

[Operator]

Found the issue. You're running old Hybrid K04 software, which is not correct. Wayyyyyy wayy way back, before there was anything such as an OEM S3 K04, we had a hybrid turbo with software. That's what you have on your car.

I've asked the engineers to make new software.

-Arin

Stoked!!!! Thanks again!!!! Shooting you a pm.

[Operator]

That's awesome news! So you can get updated tuning that matches your turbo finally. Bad news is you'll have to run another dyno.lol.
JR

Yeh, that'll be over $300 in just dyno's

[jimrobbington]

Yeah, but that's not that bad for peace of mind. Maybe I can make it to this one.

JR

[Arin@APR]

Here's the new file name:

Audi A4 NA MY2007 6-Spd 2.0T FSI 8E0910115P S0020 S3 ED30 K04 V1.0 Testpipes
Audi A4 NA MY2007 Tip 2.0T FSI 8E0910115P S0020 S3 ED30 K04 V1.0 Testpipes

[Operator]

Here's the new file name:

Audi A4 NA MY2007 6-Spd 2.0T FSI 8E0910115P S0020 S3 ED30 K04 V1.0 Testpipes
Audi A4 NA MY2007 Tip 2.0T FSI 8E0910115P S0020 S3 ED30 K04 V1.0 Testpipes

So would all I need is my receipt to get the new flash without having to pay again. Thanks!

[Arin@APR]

You don't even need that. The dealer will plug in and automatically know you had APR software as we keep a record of it in our Database, and everything comes from us directly.

[flyingfish2626]

Congrats on the great build. Glad APR is working hard for you, makes me feel good about my future purchase.

[jimrobbington]

True, even though I'm not an APR customer, I am impressed by the help Arin is giving David.

JR