YET another 5-speed swap - in progress

**M-Hood** · 04-18-2011 12:55 PM

He wanted different gearing and wanted to stick with his 4.11 rear diff. He didn't pay much for his 4.11 transmission Clint, if he went 3.89 he would have had added cost of buying a 3.89 rear diff.

**walky_talky20** · 04-18-2011 01:16 PM

^That's correct. The B3 tranny's are about half the price of a B5 unit in my area. About $150 vs. $300. Add that difference to the cost of the rear diff and this choice cuts the "swap cost" almost in half. The modifications were quite minor considering the vast difference in age of the cars. It was kind of funny - on the bell housing bolts, the old 5 cylinder used pretty much all the bolts that the B5 doesn't. But it still bolts right up. That's what all those extra bell housing holes are for. VAG compatibility at its finest.

**M-Hood** · 04-18-2011 02:38 PM

So did you end up going with the B3 4.11 transmission with the same 3rd-5th gear ratios found in the B5 1.8t 01A?

You posted 91 Audi Coupe, but in one of your other threads you posted graphs of the 80/90 transmission that had different gear ratios.

**walky_talky20** · 04-18-2011 04:14 PM

Yes, I got the Coupe Quattro trans. 4.11's with B5 3,4,5 gearing. I guess I didn't post the graph for the Coupe Quattro gear ratios. I'll share them all here:

I think it is quite a bit easier to see the difference in succession. Here comes a motion GIF for your viewing pleasure (yes, it's 1998 all up in here):

**M-Hood** · 04-18-2011 04:48 PM

Ok. So you went with the same gearing I went with too, difference is I used the 3.89 final.

**walky_talky20** · 04-18-2011 09:21 PM

Went over the car tonight and got some more stuff put back together. We were rushing to get it done, so I wanted to take some time to look over everything again. Got the wipers, rain tray, both headlights in, and tidied up some wiring. Tonight I wanted to share some more swap details and photos.

You'll notice in this photo of my B3 tranny, that the passenger side B5 mount looks correct, but the bottom, front bolt hole is actually not there:

It just so happened that the hole needed to be just below the actual tranny case, and in the cooling rib area. So simply drilled through it (perfectly centered where the hole needed to be). I then had to grind down a nut that would fit between the ribs to receive the bolt. I also had to create the proper amount of spacing between the case and the bracket. I ended up using a large nut and a thin washer to get it just right:

I also had to shim just one of the holes on the driver's side mount bracket. No big deal, just finding the right combination of washers:

The bolt for the stationary shift rod was also a little different. The B3 transmission has a bolt hole about 1.5 inches forward of the B5 location. So my Father helped me to lengthen the shift rod appropriately. The welds look a little less than fantastic (cosmetically) because it was welded without removing the shifter box from the car. We cut the rod at straight section and found a steel rod that was the same size as the ID of the hollow shaft. Then you put the shifter in the Neutral position and tack it in place. Check the shifting, then finish welding. It wasn't very hard to do actually:

For the clutch line, I described before that I used a compression fitting to graft a new section of line. This served to adapt the 97.5+ A4 clutch line to the earlier style threaded fitting for the slave connection:

Also, the exhaust hanger from the tranny didn't line up. Haven't addressed this yet:

And here are some of the "in-progress" photos that I haven't posted yet:

Trans being bolted up:

Pedals in (they aren't adjusted yet):

Shifter in:

Custom (aka free) SAI block off plate:

Huge Reverse Rake (no engine or trans):

**frameshift18** · 04-18-2011 09:50 PM

Always love the excellent photos and informative posts!

Wish I had a garage like that.

**M-Hood** · 04-19-2011 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by walky_talky20

The bolt for the stationary shift rod was also a little different. The B3 transmission has a bolt hole about 1.5 inches forward of the B5 location. So my Father helped me to lengthen the shift rod appropriately. The welds look a little less than fantastic (cosmetically) because it was welded without removing the shifter box from the car. We cut the rod at straight section and found a steel rod that was the same size as the ID of the hollow shaft. Then you put the shifter in the Neutral position and tack it in place. Check the shifting, then finish welding. It wasn't very hard to do actually:

For those that might swap to this transmission from a B5 01A they can always just switch the center housing.

**walky_talky20** · 04-19-2011 08:20 PM

Did some more finish-up work tonight. Installed the front bumper and permanently disabled the front headlamp washer jets. Thirsty little buggers. Removed the TCU and recoded the ECU. Also had to recode the ABS/ESP module so it would stop beeping at me. Put the interior all back together.

I can't drive it to work yet as I still have to finish bleeding the brakes. If anybody has any info on bleeding air out of the ABS pump unit, please share. I know you can use vag-com to make the pump run, but I don't know exactly how that ties in with bleeding the air out of it. I'm a details person, and unfortunately I don't know the details about how that thing works.

I also need to fix the cruise control (upper clutch switch and wiring), and the reverse lights. I may also hook up the clutch switch for the starter relay.

Took for a longer test drive tonight. The gearing feels pretty good to me, nothing out of the ordinary. I'll have to compare it to a normal B5 back to back to see. I also need to see what it's like on the highway. I'm excited to find out what kind of highway mileage I can get.

I had my boost gauge hooked up and the boost seemed ok, but I don't know if there is any improvement there really. I didn't put it in chipped mode, though. Still seems to build a little slowly. I probably just need to open up the exhaust. That's on the list.

So far I'm pretty happy with my $70 clutch kit. There is a tiny bit of vibration on engagement, and the pedal is on the light side, but it is working nicely.

**walky_talky20** · 04-23-2011 09:17 PM

Finished bleeding the brakes and have put about 100 miles on the car this weekend. Everything is working good. I had my brother drive it and he thinks the gearing is noticeably different than his 2000 A4 1.8TQM, but nothing outrageous. Highway revs a bit higher. 70mph has it sitting at 3400 rpms. I still have to drive his car back to back to see what I think.

Projects for the upcoming week are the reverse lights and cruise control. Gotta have my cruise.

Also, I desperately need a snub mount. Holy drive-line slop! This was seriously covered up by the slushbox and needs to be addressed now. The motor mounts seemed fine when they were out, so I'll start with the snub and go from there.

Happy Easter!

**Aragorn** · 04-24-2011 01:18 AM

My 1.8TQS does about 3500rpm at an indicated 80mph, which is more like 75ish on GPS.

**revolution337** · 04-24-2011 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by walky_talky20

Also, I desperately need a snub mount. Holy drive-line slop! This was seriously covered up by the slushbox and needs to be addressed now. The motor mounts seemed fine when they were out, so I'll start with the snub and go from there.

Happy Easter!

http://www.audizine.com/classifieds/...and-new&cat=20

**ThatA4T** · 04-24-2011 03:30 PM

i have my old apikol snub laying around if u want pm me

**discontained** · 04-24-2011 05:12 PM

Hey walky looks like I will be doing this soon. My trans today just took a dump on me. So if you dont mind im going to put a parts list together from your thread and PM you with it and could you tell me if I am missing anything? Will be sometime tonight/tomorrow

**walky_talky20** · 04-24-2011 05:22 PM

^^ Absolutely. I'd be glad to assist with that. You can PM me, or if you want to make a thread about it so you can get other people's input as well. I think that's always a good idea.

Or, I've got a good Tiptronic trans from a '01 if you're interested, lol.

**discontained** · 04-25-2011 01:48 PM

walky you got pm

**SlowGolf** · 04-25-2011 06:55 PM

Good job man

**Papa_Dios** · 05-12-2011 07:11 PM

How you liking the gearing?

**walky_talky20** · 05-13-2011 08:59 PM

Ah, yes. The gearing. It's difficult to put into words. I will try to summarize the best I can.

The gearing is shorter, but only *just* noticeably so during normal driving. It is not as dramatic as I had hoped. Of course the difference is a bit more apparent when you rev it out. The difference is, however, VERY noticeable on the highway. 60mph is 3,000 RPMs. 70mph is 3400 RPMs or so. So highway cruising is a bit different. The revs end up about 300-400 rpm higher than a regular A4. It does seem to make it more "ready to go" at high speed. I can pass people easily without even considering a downshift.

I do like the shorter ratio's and it does make it a little bit more sport-like, I suppose. But as far as any acceleration advantage, I don't think there is much to be had there. It may be helpful, but to get these ratio's, you have to go with a transmission that is over 20 years old. Mine has over 150k on it and the synchro's are getting weak. Any acceleration I would have gained is probably lost due to it's lesser ability for fast shifting. This issue is only exacerbated by my heavy dual-mass flywheel. I still need to change the gear oil to see if I can get some new life in those synchros.

So my feelings are a bit mixed. If you would ask me in hindsight if I'd choose that tranny again, I would have to think about it. Just due to the amount of highway driving I do, I'd probably opt for the B3 80/90 transmission instead. Same 4.11's, but with slightly longer gearing overall. The opportunity to buy this relatively hard-to-find Coupe Quattro box just kind of happened, so I felt I had to jump on it.

**quattbroa4** · 05-16-2011 01:47 AM

still got that 5 speed?

**M-Hood** · 05-16-2011 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by walky_talky20

Ah, yes. The gearing. It's difficult to put into words. I will try to summarize the best I can.

The gearing is shorter, but only *just* noticeably so during normal driving. It is not as dramatic as I had hoped. Of course the difference is a bit more apparent when you rev it out. The difference is, however, VERY noticeable on the highway. 60mph is 3,000 RPMs. 70mph is 3400 RPMs or so. So highway cruising is a bit different. The revs end up about 300-400 rpm higher than a regular A4. It does seem to make it more "ready to go" at high speed. I can pass people easily without even considering a downshift.

I do like the shorter ratio's and it does make it a little bit more sport-like, I suppose. But as far as any acceleration advantage, I don't think there is much to be had there. It may be helpful, but to get these ratio's, you have to go with a transmission that is over 20 years old. Mine has over 150k on it and the synchro's are getting weak. Any acceleration I would have gained is probably lost due to it's lesser ability for fast shifting. This issue is only exacerbated by my heavy dual-mass flywheel. I still need to change the gear oil to see if I can get some new life in those synchros.

So my feelings are a bit mixed. If you would ask me in hindsight if I'd choose that tranny again, I would have to think about it. Just due to the amount of highway driving I do, I'd probably opt for the B3 80/90 transmission instead. Same 4.11's, but with slightly longer gearing overall. The opportunity to buy this relatively hard-to-find Coupe Quattro box just kind of happened, so I felt I had to jump on it.

A taller 5th gear in that transmission would make it pretty much Perfect. I actually like the gearing setup using the 3.889 final out of the B5 01A. Made 1st/2nd taller while keeping the same 3rd-5th that my B5 A4 1.8t came stock with. Basically it comes out to having about the same 1st as a 2.8 and 2nd is right between the 2.8 and 1.8t.

**Papa_Dios** · 05-16-2011 09:12 AM

Good info walky. Are you planning to swap out the dual mass for a LWFW soon? Also get some synthetic in the gearbox and let us know how that turns out.

**walky_talky20** · 05-16-2011 12:37 PM

Yeah. I need to do gear oil and address the driveline slop asap. I'm not changing the clutch for a while, though.

**ThatA4T** · 06-15-2011 04:24 PM

pics of everything back together? or did i miss them?

**diagnosticator** · 10-28-2011 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by walky_talky20

Comments? Anyone? Bueller?

I feel like my (perhaps overdetailed and excessively over-photographed) updates may cause some to stop reading. That is ok with me

. Just wanted to get some valued feedback on my bearing solution.

The only comments I can add, is I would have cut the cap end off of the bearing using a lathe. Or, at least dress the cut off using a flat file. But then, I'm fussy about details. Will work fine as is. Nice clean solution regardless.
Another solution (but not nessessarily better,) would be to machine a sleeve with the OD sized to press fit the crankshaft pilot bearing ID, and the sleeve ID to light press fit the 1.8T MT pilot bearing OD, with the sleeve length longer to place the pilot bearing at the correct offset, with the sleeve both accomdating the size difference, and supporting the pilot bearing offset.
The pilot bearing is not heavily loaded (with the clutch disengaged, with no load when the clutch is engaged,) it only allows the relative difference between the rotation speeds of the crankshaft and trans input shaft, and provides support for the bending load on the input shaft due to the weight of the clutch.

**Dirk Gently** · 10-29-2011 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by diagnosticator

The pilot bearing is not heavily loaded (with the clutch disengaged, with no load when the clutch is engaged,) it only allows the relative difference between the rotation speeds of the crankshaft and trans input shaft, and provides support for the bending load on the input shaft due to the weight of the clutch.

It sure does make a funny sound if you forget to install it.

Excellent write-up, you have entrusted confidence to someone new to Audi's (Me) to perform this swap.

**walky_talky20** · 10-29-2011 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by diagnosticator

The only comments I can add, is I would have cut the cap end off of the bearing using a lathe. Or, at least dress the cut off using a flat file. But then, I'm fussy about details. Will work fine as is. Nice clean solution regardless.
Another solution (but not nessessarily better,) would be to machine a sleeve with the OD sized to press fit the crankshaft pilot bearing ID, and the sleeve ID to light press fit the 1.8T MT pilot bearing OD, with the sleeve length longer to place the pilot bearing at the correct offset, with the sleeve both accomdating the size difference, and supporting the pilot bearing offset.
The pilot bearing is not heavily loaded (with the clutch disengaged, with no load when the clutch is engaged,) it only allows the relative difference between the rotation speeds of the crankshaft and trans input shaft, and provides support for the bending load on the input shaft due to the weight of the clutch.

I am honored to have your comments in my thread, sir. I completely agree with the sleeve idea and I thought that would be the best solution. If I wasn't happy with the V6 pilot bearing solution I was planning on taking the TC bushing and 1.8T pilot bearing to a machinist friend to have something made. I also agree about the lathe and making a better cut on the cap. I did the best I could and I think it turned out well. I did want to file it flat, but I was already a little worried about the metal chips going in the bearing during the cutting and I didn't want to add to the problem just to address an aesthetic issue. I stuffed as rag inside while I was cutting it and then sprayed and blew the thing out for probably a half-hour before I was sure that I got them all out.

I am a happy to report that it has been about 10k miles since the swap and everything is going fantastic. The synchros in my high-mile tranny are a bit on the worn side. It shifts great as long as you know what you are doing, but if you just try and stuff it a random gear, not so much. We'll say I've become pretty good at double-clutching those downshifts! I plan on doing a pretty aggressive gear oil change - I'm going with either Pennzoil or GM Synchromesh fluid. It is a thinner fluid that is known to help worn synchros have a new lease on life. I realize that it may somewhat decrease the long term life expectancy of the trans, but I'm ok with that. The cold weather won't be helping matters, so this may happen pretty soon.

**Emersonhayes** · 01-13-2012 12:47 PM

This is some great info. Wondering if anyone has any specific knowledge on doing this same conversion to a 2002 3.0 Qauttro.

**walky_talky20** · 01-13-2012 01:41 PM

A quick check on ETKA and it appears that unlike the 1.8T, the 3.0 has the same crankshaft regardless of transmission type. For the tiptronic car, you would just pull out the torque converter bushing and replace it with the pilot bearing:

http://www.ecstuning.com/Search/034105313a/ES1450/

This is actually the "Audi V6 pilot bearing" I used in my conversion. Anyway, with the 3.0 no special conversion needed - it's a direct fit.

**the_pirate** · 04-25-2012 07:52 AM

Do you remember who was putting a Passat 5 speed into their A4? I thought it was you but I guess not. I just purchased a Passat 5 speed trans just wondering if I'm gonna run into any issues, it came out of an 01.5 and its going into an 01 A4 (my car is FWD).

**walky_talky20** · 04-25-2012 09:15 AM

Passat is a B5, no difference at all in the drivetrain (for a FWD model anyway). You won't run into any Passat compatibility problems.

**the_pirate** · 04-25-2012 12:39 PM

So I'll be fine collecting all my other parts from Audis? Shifter box, clutch, etc? I've got a pedal assembly from an S4 that should be fine to right?

**donkeysaudi** · 04-25-2012 01:01 PM

How much have you invested in the swap so far? What kind of problems would i run into using a 96 2.8 trans on a 2001 1.8? Also what gear ratios would that have?

**JumboBlack1.8** · 04-25-2012 03:57 PM

I'll be selling a Quattro 5speed drivetain soon, if anyone out there is interested :)

**ZipMeUpJ** · 11-26-2012 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by walky_talky20

Anywhoo, the part I am interested in:

If i read correctly, the v6 pilot bearing you used to was make due for your crankshaft not looking like THAT^ one correct? The engine i bought has a crankshaft that looks just like that one you had laying around. So would i still need the bearing or no? Im not sure if that conical machined part comes off the crank and the bearing goes in orrrr ?

**walky_talky20** · 11-26-2012 06:45 PM

The photo you have quoted is what we A4 guys would refer to as 'manual crankshaft'. That particular one does not have the pilot bearing installed. You would merely procure the normal 1.8T pilot bearing and install it. Zero drama.

Sidenote: The reason the photo you quoted does not show a bearing is because it is from a Jetta. All of the transverse 1.8T's (ie: Jetta, Golf, TT, etc) have a crankshaft like that. The automatic cars just don't have the pilot bearing installed. The engine in that photo came from a Jetta with an Auto trans.

Sidenote 2: I'm not certain if yours already has a bearing in place or not. Here is what a regular manual 1.8T crank looks like with the bearing installed:

**ZipMeUpJ** · 11-26-2012 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by walky_talky20

The photo you have quoted is what we A4 guys would refer to as 'manual crankshaft'. That particular one does not have the pilot bearing installed. You would merely procure the normal 1.8T pilot bearing and install it. Zero drama.

Sidenote: The reason the photo you quoted does not show a bearing is because it is from a Jetta. All of the transverse 1.8T's (ie: Jetta, Golf, TT, etc) have a crankshaft like that. The automatic cars just don't have the pilot bearing installed. The engine in that photo came from a Jetta with an Auto trans.

Sidenote 2: I'm not certain if yours already has a bearing in place or not. Here is what a regular manual 1.8T crank looks like with the bearing installed:

ok makes sense. I initially thought the one i procured was from a CVT auto, but this suites me better. Ok to use the bearing in my old with the new engine, or just buy new one?