B6/B7 S4 Timing Chain FAQ / Information / Discussion Thread

[S4Bennett]

Does anybody have easy to access information on what is different on the updated guides and when the change took effect? I'm trying toget a feel for whether the inventory has turned to cycle out the older revision and if there's an easy way (visually) to tell the difference between the old and new revs.

[Jake@JHM]

You would have to have both side by side to really notice the difference, but the way the bracing is designed in the center of the guide is visually different.

[S4Bennett]

Anybody know if the new guides are cross linked?

[boomer3]

I am tearing the back end of my block apart, I have all of the parts I need to replace minus seals. I am having a little trouble cross-referencing the audi part #'s supplied by the guys here with the exact seals that I need for this job, EG:
079109293C — Hydraulic Controller Seal [2]- $17.60
079131120A — Coolant/SAP Gasket- $12.70
079131120 - Coolant/SAP Gasket- $12.70
079109139A — Center Lower Gasket- $9.90
079131120B — Kombi Valve Gasket [Pipe 2 timing cover]- $7.87
078131120K — Kombi Valve Gasket [Valve 2 valve]- $3.72
079105193 — Diamond Disc Washer [2]- $116.06
035906149A — Fuel Injector Seal Set [8]- $23.28
077129717Q — Intake Manifold Gaskets [2]- $36.08
077198025B — Valve Cover Gasket Kit [Bank 1: 1-4]- $46.13
077198025C — Valve Cover Gasket Kit [Bank 2: 5-8]- $46.13
079115111A — Oil Filter Housing Seal [Double O-Ring]- $5.46
N90959701 — Oil Filter Housing Seal [single O-Ring]- $1.24
N90989503 — Rear Water Manifold O-Rings [2]- $3.84

It looks like all of them are needed after looking at jimellisaudiparts, but wondering if some gaskets are potentially reusable, such as metal gaskets from kombi etc. Please note, I recognize these are totally newbie questions, the idea that "All seals should be replaced" is lodged in my psyche, but if there are certain seals that don't always have to be replaced please educate me!

[glebtcheb]

colors of the guides are different - updated guides are white/beige as opposed to brown
I believe the "ingredients" of the "plastic" are different or the mix is.
and the updated guide rails are now brown as opposed to black

[gcoy]

Yes, I would replace them. I mean why not? It is so much work to get to where you are now. I can post my parts list from when I did my service... (if that would help)

[sparkhed]

Went ahead with the intermediate plus after getting the stern look from my mechanic and not wanting to argue with him. I have used him for long enough and call him a friend so I trust his advise. Now have to wait for the rs6 in front of us to get its new tranny. Hope to have it back next week. Any break in period that I should know about? I won't be shifting at redline or anything (don't usually anyways) but I am hoping for another 92000 before this motor has to come out again. Thanks!

[glebtcheb]

I had the clutch done at the same time - He has to remove the tranny anyways to do the timing service. Just an extra $350 - $450 totally worth it - especially for the labour savings (you have to get all the way there) if it fails you in 40,000 miles...

[boomer3]

Yes, I would replace them. I mean why not? It is so much work to get to where you are now. I can post my parts list from when I did my service... (if that would help)

Yes I agree with your logic, I am going to replace all, it would be pretty foolish to do all this work and mess up with seals. I would still like to have some fundamental knowledge about it in general, incase there are locations/instances that seals don't need to be replaced.

If you would post the seals that you replaced I would really appreciate it. Also curious if 079105193 — Diamond Disc Washer [2], needs to ber replaced?

[gcoy]

I did not replace the Diamond Disc Washers... nor did the other member in here that helped me with advice when I did my service.

[PushingTin]

I just bought my b6 s4 MT at 124000 miles. I hear a 1-2 second rattle on cold start. From what I have read here that us normal? I'm thinking about buying an extended warranty because I'm scared of the timing system failing but would you? If I already have 125k on the car with no failure what are my odds I bought an s4 that will not encounter the failure? Thanks for any advice

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

[SquiddyB6S4]

I just bought my b6 s4 MT at 124000 miles. I hear a 1-2 second rattle on cold start. From what I have read here that us normal? I'm thinking about buying an extended warranty because I'm scared of the timing system failing but would you? If I already have 125k on the car with no failure what are my odds I bought an s4 that will not encounter the failure? Thanks for any advice

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

Don't bother with the warranty. They won't cover just the noise, and if the engine goes, they'll just back out and stick you with the bill anyway.

[boomer3]

I did not replace the Diamond Disc Washers... nor did the other member in here that helped me with advice when I did my service.

One last thing before i order all my gaskets; i see on ECS that there are a bunch of other gaskets listed under the 079109139 series. Like 079109139K, L, and J. All look like they could be valid to replace, as well as the timing case gaskets 079109092B, and 079109091B.

Why are these not listed in anybody's parts lists? Can they just be reused/left in there? Would be great to see if others have put these gaskets in or gotten away without replacing.

[gcoy]

One last thing before i order all my gaskets; i see on ECS that there are a bunch of other gaskets listed under the 079109139 series. Like 079109139K, L, and J. All look like they could be valid to replace, as well as the timing case gaskets 079109092B, and 079109091B.

Why are these not listed in anybody's parts lists? Can they just be reused/left in there? Would be great to see if others have put these gaskets in or gotten away without replacing.

That's weird, I just looked at my parts list and the only part number close to these that I replaced was 079109139A $6.14

[ProtoFly]

Question for the guys who have done the timing job:

Which cylinder is at TDC when the crank lock pin is in place?

Here's the reason: I'm working on my 2005 A6 4.2, which is pretty much the same engine. It bent the exhaust valves on the passenger side, when the cam chain tensioner decided it wanted to let loose with its plastic guide, throwing it into the exhaust cam sprocket, making it skip a tooth. (Seems to be one of the more common failure modes).

Heads resurfaced, valve job, new valve seals, new timing components, bolts, etc. Last night, I pulled the plug on the pan to put the 3242 crank holder in place, with #1 TDC. Except it didn't lock it in place. Huh. Yep, seated all the way. OK. Thinking I have the number 1 confused (passenger side, front cylinder, right??), I rotate the engine to what I thought was number 5 (drivers side, front). No deal there either. So I rotate to what I think is #8 TDC (Drivers side, rearmost cylinder), and sure enough, pin goes in, locks crank properly. Nowhere else.

The Bentley manual really is no help, as I can't find details -anywhere- except the term 'TDC ignition timing', for which I can't find a definition.

Based on the camshaft positions, this -seems- correct, as the cam lobes indicate that #8 is at TDC, just beginning the power stroke, and #2 is at TDC, just beginning the intake stroke.

Question is, is this correct?

Thanks for any wisdom,

Darryl

[gcoy]

Question for the guys who have done the timing job:

Which cylinder is at TDC when the crank lock pin is in place?

Here's the reason: I'm working on my 2005 A6 4.2, which is pretty much the same engine. It bent the exhaust valves on the passenger side, when the cam chain tensioner decided it wanted to let loose with its plastic guide, throwing it into the exhaust cam sprocket, making it skip a tooth. (Seems to be one of the more common failure modes).

Heads resurfaced, valve job, new valve seals, new timing components, bolts, etc. Last night, I pulled the plug on the pan to put the 3242 crank holder in place, with #1 TDC. Except it didn't lock it in place. Huh. Yep, seated all the way. OK. Thinking I have the number 1 confused (passenger side, front cylinder, right??), I rotate the engine to what I thought was number 5 (drivers side, front). No deal there either. So I rotate to what I think is #8 TDC (Drivers side, rearmost cylinder), and sure enough, pin goes in, locks crank properly. Nowhere else.

The Bentley manual really is no help, as I can't find details -anywhere- except the term 'TDC ignition timing', for which I can't find a definition.

Based on the camshaft positions, this -seems- correct, as the cam lobes indicate that #8 is at TDC, just beginning the power stroke, and #2 is at TDC, just beginning the intake stroke.

Question is, is this correct?

Thanks for any wisdom,

Darryl

Cyl 8 will be up at the correct timing (weird I know) and there is a little arrow on the harmonic balancer that lines up with the timing mark cast at the 12 o'clock position on the front of the engine. If Cyl 8 is up, the crank pin is screwed all the way in and you now cannot move the crankshaft,

[ProtoFly]

Cyl 8 will be up at the correct timing (weird I know) and there is a little arrow on the harmonic balancer that lines up with the timing mark cast at the 12 o'clock position on the front of the engine. If Cyl 8 is up, the crank pin is screwed all the way in and you now cannot move the crankshaft,

Thanks very much gcoy, both for the quick response, and for the reassurance that I wasn't losing my mind.

Is this outlined anywhere in the Bentley? -Seems- like something they'd want to make a point of - but then again, if the harmonic balancer arrow lines up, I guess that's all there is to need to know. (runs out to garage to find the arrow...) Hmm...Don't see it. You wouldn't happen to have a picture of the harmonic balancer little arrow, would you? Seems my balancer is a bit on the rusty looking side of things...Might have to procure a new one.

:-)

[gcoy]

[IMG][/IMG]

I used The Elsawin Program, not Bentley. lol

[gcoy]

[IMG][/IMG]

Here is a pic with the cam locks in-place. note the location of the white paint mark on the harmonic balancer ...

[ProtoFly]

[IMG][/IMG]

Here is a pic with the cam locks in-place. note the location of the white paint mark on the harmonic balancer ...

Thanks. Very clean engine! I'll have to pressure wash mine once it is in the car and sealed up. My heads are clean, but the block is still very dirty from the years of oil leaking out the valve cover gaskets.

I'll have to check out the Elsawin program. The Bentley/eBahn goes over things decently, but pictures are lacking.

[ProtoFly]

[IMG][/IMG]

Here is a pic with the cam locks in-place. note the location of the white paint mark on the harmonic balancer ...

White paint mark is pointing towards the idler pulley, correct? My balancer looks to be in the same position, and I did find a faint white paint mark there as well.

I -didn't- see a mark on the block there, though, but there is something at 12 o'clock in your picture.

While I at least feel like I'm in good territory, I think it is worth discussing this a bit, just so that the next person might benefit from the conversation.

[ProtoFly]

Next stupid question: What are the dimensions of tool 'trim removal wedge 3409', which is referenced when setting the timing?

Based on what I'm looking at, it appears that it's just being used to pre-load the tensioners to some degree, to remove any slack from the chains.

[ProtoFly]

Update on my 4.2 project: Car is back together, and runs great. I've learned much about these 4.2's.

I spent quite a bit on little things - all the little o-rings and seals that aren't listed, plus numerous torque-to-yield bolts, water pump, etc, all added up to several hundred dollars. I'm guessing that most people don't replace many of those bolts, but since I plan on keeping the car for another 165k miles, I followed the Bentley pretty closely on that stuff.

Recognizing that my car is an A6, it's clear to me that my 4.2 has almost zero differences from the S4. Many (if not most/all) of the part numbers for the guides and such are the same, or have been superseded to the same parts.

I have to give major props to the S4 forum areas, since there aren't apparently that many A6 owners that work on their own cars, most of the really solid information comes from the S4 people. So, thanks!


-Darryl

[Cyrool]

Hi guys, very interesting tread.

In my 2003 S4 i have this faults codes:
- 17942 - Bank2 adjusting cam (N208) - electrical fault in +
P1534 - 001 - Light on
- 16684 - Wiring trouble detected
P0300 - 008 -
- 16687 - Cylinder 3 Wiring trouble detected
P0303 - 008 -
- 16685 - Cylinder 1 Wiring trouble detected
P0301 - 008 -

Can anyone help me to know what is the real trouble:
- Cam adjuster are used ?
- Electrical adjusting system in bank 2 failed or not powered?
- Another ?

Thanks in advance for your reply and your help.

Cyril

[jon.m.rob]

Thanks for this info, it is very helpful. I just bought a 2005 S4 with 127K miles. No rattle, and runs really smooth. You suggest using high quality oil, and I have read other places that using a heavier weight oil will also help. I can see that a heavier oil would have advantages because it would be less likely to bleed oil pressure as you mentioned in one of the early posts. But I can see that a lower weight oil would have advantages of getting through the timing components faster once the engine is started. For preventative care would you recommend a heavier weight oil, a lighter weight oil, or just to stick with the spec oil?

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

I am going to bump this thread. And am surprised there has not been more talk about this subject.

Here is a great reference for the adjustment of the timing: Link

I am have rebuilt the adjusters with the JHM kit, and am currently having difficulty getting the cams "timed" perfectly with the supplied vag tools.

I am +- 1 degree

[TarlCabot]

I am going to bump this thread. And am surprised there has not been more talk about this subject.

Here is a great reference for the adjustment of the timing: Link

I am have rebuilt the adjusters with the JHM kit, and am currently having difficulty getting the cams "timed" perfectly with the supplied vag tools.

I am +- 1 degree

do you have all the proper tools and instructions on how to put the motor back in time ?
i know its prob a stupid question, but it's pretty straight forward if you do it right and the ecu and electric adjuster take over from there...

[TarlCabot]

that link you provided didnt show the pics of the tools... but seems about right as far as instructions go, long as you have all 7 of the tools i dont see how you could go wrong unless your electrical adjusters are malfunctioning, but you would be getting codes for that :/

[guardsredcoupe]

By the way, my engine died due to an injector that was stuck open and washed down a cylinder wall. So, I have all my timing chain components available for sale. Less than 10k miles on them. Send me a PM if interested.

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

The tools are shown in the link. I am going to re-do the timing today this time using the crank lock pin and not relying on the cam lock bars for timing accuracy. I also did not sue the plastic wedges to push out the chain tensioners so when I tightened up everything the tensioners were not at their normal state this I think the cause of the cams settling a little bit offset. Hopefully this solves the issue. After the amount of work put into this v8 I want to make sure it is all good before I seal everything up...

[VR6OhMy]

Hey guys I cannot find any information on timing marks for the intermediate shafts, not even in the Bentley. I've looked closely at mine and do not see any of the tell tale VW/Audi intermediate shaft marks such as an angled cut tooth for a pointer.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[Brandywine050]

The tools are shown in the link. I am going to re-do the timing today this time using the crank lock pin and not relying on the cam lock bars for timing accuracy. I also did not sue the plastic wedges to push out the chain tensioners so when I tightened up everything the tensioners were not at their normal state this I think the cause of the cams settling a little bit offset. Hopefully this solves the issue. After the amount of work put into this v8 I want to make sure it is all good before I seal everything up...

It definitely shouldn't be that difficult. just be sure to lock the cams, have all of the cam bolts loose so the gears are able to spin free on the cams, pull the pins on the tensioners to let the chain tighten up and remove any slack in the chains so the gears can be clocked, oriented and sit neutral on the cams, torque the exhaust cam bolts to 40NM (29.5 Ft/lbs) install the wedges, install the setting gauge over the hall/rotor ring torque them to 40NM as well, remove the crank pin, cam locks, and setting gauge and bar the engine over until you are able to get the cam locks and crank pin back in, and you should be able to install the setting gauge back over the intake cam rotor ring and exhaust cam bolt, then final torque on the cam bolts of 100Nm (73.76Ft/lbs) then 90 degrees.

Some one may need to chime in to verify. its been a while since i timed mine.

[Brandywine050]

Hey guys I cannot find any information on timing marks for the intermediate shafts, not even in the Bentley. I've looked closely at mine and do not see any of the tell tale VW/Audi intermediate shaft marks such as an angled cut tooth for a pointer.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

intermediate shafts, to which do you refer? if its the accessory drive gears then they do not have any indexing on them indicating orientation.

[VR6OhMy]

intermediate shafts, to which do you refer? if its the accessory drive gears then they do not have any indexing on them indicating orientation.

These ones ;)

[Brandywine050]

These ones ;)

Gotcha, those can be orientated in any position my friend, there is nothing critical about their position.

[VR6OhMy]

Gotcha, those can be orientated in any position my friend, there is nothing critical about their position.

Thank you sir! ;)

[TarlCabot]

The tools are shown in the link. I am going to re-do the timing today this time using the crank lock pin and not relying on the cam lock bars for timing accuracy. I also did not sue the plastic wedges to push out the chain tensioners so when I tightened up everything the tensioners were not at their normal state this I think the cause of the cams settling a little bit offset. Hopefully this solves the issue. After the amount of work put into this v8 I want to make sure it is all good before I seal everything up...

those plastic wedges are really important... chain has to be tight, could have caused your problem... g/l and keep us updated

[alm70]

Hello..I come from the C6 A6 forums and stumbled across this thread since my car is a 07 A6 4.2. My car currently needs a cam chain tensioner. I'm by no means a mechanic so forgive me if I use the wrong terminology. It needs the tensioner on the passenger side.
My indy shop is saying most people only do the side that has the issue because of the price of parts. If money wasn't an issue, I can see doing both sides, but if I only do the effected side is it a matter of when and not if the other side goes?
The car does have 100K on it.

This isn't my first Audi and I have had VW and Audi's for 20 years so I'm aware of the maintenance cost, but this is by far the biggest repair I have had to do. Looking at the pictures above puts my stomach in knots.

[FormulaElement]

Your 4.2 is FSI and is different than these engines. I would replace both especially if you have to pull the engine because paying to have the engine pulled twice is much more than fronting the cost for both. To be honest if one went already, the other one should be on its way out...

[SquiddyB6S4]

Your 4.2 is FSI and is different than these engines. I would replace both especially if you have to pull the engine because paying to have the engine pulled twice is much more than fronting the cost for both. To be honest if one went already, the other one should be on its way out...

Correct; different engine, much less problematic.

For those with the chain driven 4.2 - FYI, it's plenty common to have one go bad and the other look great. The problem was not a bad design so much as the quality control was a bit off for several parts on these cars. It was low production, so the money spent designing and producing special parts was already high, and, as usual with low production cars, the parts don't end up as uniform and reliable. But, as mentioned, the labor costs much more than the parts, so I would do both, as well as replacing the several other timing bits in there that tend to go bad on these cars. You can do a pretty good timing job on these cars for about $1,500 in parts, as long as nothing has completely failed yet.