Do I smell a 60-1 build? (pics)

[AEB]

..

[jaychen]

That sucks, whats next then in terms of turbo choice?

[SleeperAvant]

Damn, that effing sucks. So sorry to hear, Zimbu.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

Thanks guys, I pulled the turbo yesterday and I think I've come to a tentative conclusion as to what caused the failure. I think I managed to accidently leave a small piece of silicone coupler loose in the intake tract and it hit the compressor. Reason I think that is because there was a whole bunch of fuzz in the piping between the compressor discharge and the intercooler. I'm assuming that it's shredded coupler lining. Anyway, pulled the turbo apart and ran the turbine shaft on a dial indicator and it looked to be straight. So it's at Alamo industries getting looked at and I should probably know within the day whether or not it's rebuildable.

[Seerlah]

So, maybe just a new compressor wheel and rebalance?

[ZimbutheMonkey]

Unfortunately no, it's looking like there had been some shaft scoring from an oiling issue. I don't know whether or not it was from me or the previous owner however. Anyway, it's a moot point in that respect as I'll need to get it machined down and have a set of oversized bearings put in. Total cost is going to be about $800 for a rebuild. I'm debating whether or not to go with the rebuild on this one or get a new CHRA and turbine housing from Jess at usedturbos.net he came in way under Alamo's price, however with shipping and such it'll be close to the $800 by the time it lands at my door.

So stay tuned for the thrilling conclusion...

[snizza]

hope you don't give up and finish your project man.

[Seerlah]

For $800, I would go a whole different route. I don't know what type of powerband you are looking for, but for that price you can get a setup that hits full spool around the 4k mark (give or take) vs 4.5k. Below is a link to where I picked up my turbo from. Best prices I could find, and they offer free shipping (not sure about Can). Might want to take a gander, as they have T Series Journal bearing for some good prices (oil cooled). You can even opt for the PTE Billet Journal bearing units (not sold on that website), which I think would also be a better alternative.

http://www.evans-tuning.com/ecommerce/turbos/garrett

[ZimbutheMonkey]

I ended up ordering a CHRA and turbine housing from Jess at pureturbos.com I got the CHRA and housing for $525. I've always found he has the best prices on just about anything.

[Seerlah]

Good deal. I just thought you were going to pick up a whole other turbo for $800, when you could have picked up a brand new oil cooled 60-trim for cheaper. Waiting for updates.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

Waiting to see if it ships today. I made a mistake in telling Jess that this was a Hi-fi (turns out it's a regular 60-1 in a t04E housing) so it may set the shipping back a day. Luckily I clued in over the weekend and sent him some pics of my turbo and caught the mistake before it was fully assembled/shipped.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

Well, hats off to Jess at http://www.pureturbos.com/store/ I got my new 60-1 CHRA and turbine housing. With any luck I'll have things together by Friday.




Kablooied compressor


Some misc intercooler piping shots since I had to pull them off

[ZimbutheMonkey]

Well, it's been 16 hours straight it's 4am , I'm beat to shit and dirty as a Frenchman, but dammit she runs!!!!!!! I haven't had much chance to really play with her as I'm getting compressor surge when I let off the throttle, so I'm trying to minimize my over 5 PSI pulls. But I did one at 14 PSI and holy shit did it move! When I get it up and running right, this thing is going to be devastatingly fast.

[Seerlah]

By compressor surge, you mean the blow back from the TB messing with the current in the charge pipe? What dv/bov you using and where is it located on your charge pipe? But on the brighter note, good sh*t. As you already know,been watching this thread for a while. How's your LS mod coming along?

[xdewaynex]

Awesome to hear you got it together and running. I believe I have the same surge problem as you described, when I let off the throttle quickly with high boost, I get a little buck.

[Seerlah]

You guys thinking moving the dv/bov closer to the throttle body would fix it?

[SleeperAvant]

In my opinion the DV should be as close to the turbo as possible to help decrease the time it takes for the charge air to be ventilated away from the turbo.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

First off, thanks guys. It's been great having the support of other enthusiasts. Believe me, it's a great motivator to know that people are watching and pulling for you. Like I said earlier, it's guys like you that give me the inspiration to go out and take on a job like this. So hats off to you all

Second, as for the surge it's when I let off the throttle and I get that 'awesome wastegate sound' that ricers with dying turbos seem to love. Third, I'm actually running a hybrid setup where I have a turbosmart BOV about 10 inches off the compressor discharge and an N710 DV about 12 inches from the throttle body.

I'm wondering if the hose I have on my DV is too narrow and not allowing it to work properly. I'm going to get some larger ID vac line and try it out. As for the BOV, I don't know what's up with it. I have it on it's loosest setting and it still doesn't want to work. It's possible that the sliding piston is caught up in the bore. However I used a thin layer of that Mobil1 red synthetic grease so it should slide. I'm going to look into it as a first order of business. However I need to clean up the garage before my old man kills me. It looks like a tropical earthquake hit it.

Anyways guys, I'll keep you all posted.

[Dan[FN]6262]

Nice tube mani. lmao.



I get a little bit of compressor surge if I don't boost more than like 8psi and let off the throttle. But I have a 25+psi spring in my BOV

[ZimbutheMonkey]

It's seemed to have gotten better when I replaced the vac lines with the next size up and re-routed the BOV to a more direct and better vacuum source (that nipple underneath the throttle body).

Got some more seat time in it though. I'll have to admit that my complete lack of self control has put me in the "drive it like you stole it" break in group lol. Well, not completely, I'm trying to alternate vacuum with pressure. So kinda been doing pulls and then just letting it coast down in the next gear.

I haven't run it past about 14 PSI, but holy s*it does it pull. Having never ran anything larger than a 2860 it's a bit of a different feel for sure. Boost ramps up, but there's no real spike. It just feels like the car starts pulling harder and harder until I let off the throttle. Although it may be down on torque vs a GT2860, it feels like it's making the same HP at 14 PSI as my GT did at 21-22 PSI.I'm going to give it a little more time before I start wringing it out past 6500. I'll probably set 7200 as my target max and 7500 as the fuel cutoff. Even with this .48 housing I feel like this thing would rev clean to 8500. Oh well, just another reason to start saving for valvesprings.

Some shots of the final product



And, the car it went into

[Dan[FN]6262]

I broke mine in on 18psi and 7.5k rpms on my 5857

[ZimbutheMonkey]

Yeah, PSI, especially on the 60-1 really means nothing in terms of comparing output with different turbos. A similar setup in Calgary, at 3500 ft, on a small port head dynoed at about 330-350 AWHP. Funny thing is that these turbos seem to top out at 21-22 PSI. However they'll flow close to 60 lb/min doing it.

The only conclusion that I can come to is that the 60-1 is at it's best on a high volumetric efficiency setup. You probably stand to either gain or loose a substantial amount of power depending on if there are any bottlenecks in your engine and charge system.

The only potential choke points that I can identify on my car are a) the turbine housing and b) the stock intake manifold. I'm not willing to go to a .63 A/R as it lags enough as it is at my elevation. That, and the 4 bolt .48 A/R is quite a bit larger than a 5 bolt Ford one. Looking at pics of the two, the .63 A/R housing really isn't that much larger. That, and with my revs being capped at 7500 RPM, I don't think I'll be out flowing the .48 one.

The intake mani on the other hand, could pose an issue. The kinda good news is that my stock throttle body is starting to shit the bed on me so I may as well upgrade. I think I'm going to go ahead with my plans of ordering some D channel and making a larger one like the Apikol design. I just need to get a definitive answer as to which 6 cylinder throttle body to use. The VR6 one or the V6 30V one.

[Seerlah]

How much did all this set you back, cost wise? Because that is the only thing really holding me back from completing mine (still unemployed). Also, I seen an R32 throttle body being sold in the classified for cheap, but not in the best condition. But function over form, and the price is def agreeable. I would do that and send in an AEB IM to Apikol to have them make me a unit (Mike Hood may be able to get you a slight discount). Unless you are going to fab your own plenum with velocity stacks?

http://www.audizine.com/classifieds/...le-body&cat=21
https://www.apikol.com/#Products,Engine,104

[ZimbutheMonkey]

Cost wise, it added up pretty fast. I'm going to wager it ended up in the neighborhood of about $3500, maybe more. Also, that's not counting the cost of my $650 turbo mistake. As well, I already had half this stuff for either free (i.e. couplers, steel bends, t-bolts, AEB head) or next to free (i.e. engine block). And, I literally did 99% of my own labor. If I had a shop do this exact setup, I'd have been looking at well into $7000 or more. Pretty much double the cost I imagine.

If you don't have a steady income stream then do not attempt it, at least not a custom one like this. The problem is that there are soooo many parts that will nickle and dime you to death. For example, the $150 that I spent on oil and coolant lines. Then there's the inevitable $20 daily trip to the local fastener shop for fittings that you didn't realize you needed, and so on and so forth....

That said, if you really want to go ahead on a fixed income do it as cookie cutter as you can. I know that I bemoan that a lot, however you would be a case of someone who it would work well for. At least in that case, you know all your costs upfront and you can acquire the gear in stages. PSi Concepts oil/coolant supply lines comes to mind. Buy them, then buy the manifold. At this stage you know for sure that your money hasn't been wasted because they aren't compatible with some other manifold or turbo.

Also, downtime WILL be longer than you expect. Doesn't matter if it's you or a shop. Something along the way will hold up progress. It's not insurmountable, however if you need your car to live and you want to try and cram it in over a weekend, it ain't happening.

Anyway, hope that doesn't come off too much as a downer. If anything, I'd say that it at least lets you lay the tracks for a build while you're unemployed. I found it came in really handy to have a bunch of stuff pre-purchased over the winter by my scrimping and saving.

Anyhoo, sounds like you've got your heart set on a build. I hope this at least gives you a bit of help/direction for doing it, a la ghetto income like I did.

[Seerlah]

I am really almost done. Here is a my list of parts (it's kind of big, and was lucky enough to scoop most of this stuff up when I was employed):

-Garrett T3 GT2871R .63 A/R
-PSi Concept T3 manifold
-PSi Concept oil&coolant lines
-Precision PW39 wastegate
-TM Tuning AFPR
-ATP fuel rail
-Forge 004
-Turbo XS HPBC MBC
-ATP fuel rail adapter to run stock (or stock like) fpr<<<this is a really cool design
-034 Bosch 044 in tank fuel pump
-034 powder coated valve cover
-034 polished ignition coil cover (thinking to pc red)
-034 Vortex catch can
-Injen 3" dry filter with pre-filter (water repellant)
-1" K&N filter for catch can
-Vibrant silicone wrapped heater hose for catch can (just looks cleaner than regular heater hose)
-4 Siemen 630cc injectors (flow matched)
-Autometer fuel pressure gauge for rail
-Innovate LC-1 for one of my VEI dual gauges
-2 dual VEI gauges (boost, IAT, A/F, oil pressure)
-034 Street Density Motor Mounts
-034 Street Density Tranny Mounts
-Sachs metal clutch slave cylinder with SS lines
-Mocal oil cooler with Mocal thermostatic sandwich plate
-I am sure I am missing other stuff

I have been installing parts peice by peice, to not overload myself at once. For example, just placed on my SS brake lines yesterday or 2 days ago, so my brake upgrade is done (A8/TT with Hawk HPS front and rear). I installed the Bosch 044 maybe a month ago. And I already have a bunch of mods already on my vehicle (2.75", JHM trio, 034 snub mount with bracket, Stern Power Ring, Stern rear diff carrier bushings, coilovers,Hotchkis sway bars, etc. those are performance mods and not cosmetic). Found a guy who is going to sell me the Boost Factory SMIC for $350 used, just waiting for him to take it off his car (placed in vented B5 S4 fender liner, and plan on modifying this smic a bit with a 2.5" outlet to 2.5" aluminum custom throttle body piping to 2.5" stock throttle body. I'll use the stock hot side charge piping that runs under the radiator for now). I ordered the Apikol 2 weeks ago and was to ship out last week, but I canceled that order (they were really kind to cancel it, as they are built to order) before it shipped. So, just need that, and the ER downpipe for the PSi Concept manifold and I can install my kit.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

Nice, then you look like you're set to go. I'll be looking forward to seeing it completed.

On another note, I just about had an aneurysm today. I had just taken off from my house and was crossing the intersection when I saw all sorts of white smoke billowing from the back. Fuck, I thought and turned around to try and nurse it back to the house. Well, the light was taking forever and all of a sudden the GF says "your oil pressure gauge isn't rising anymore (it bounces between 25 to 75 PSI depending on throttle). Shit shit shit!!!!!, now I'm backing up into oncoming traffic to get into the curb lane, the oil pressure light and dash were just starting to beep as I jam it into the right lane and shut the car off. Open the hood and there's oil everywhere on the exhaust side. Push the car into the nearest parking lot and think of ways to light the car on fire so it looks like an accident.

So I'm sitting, looking at this engine, trying to figure out what the hell could blow oil all over the engine bay? Finally I decide to give the oil supply line a shake and sure enough, it's loose. As it turns out, I was thinking this morning "hey, I never actually looked through that fitting that I found in my toolbox and used to connect the oil line to the new CHRA (this one was different than the one that blew). "I should check to make sure it isn't an orifice type" Nope, it wasn't, but I must just finger tightened it as my attention was drawn to a coupler that was coming loose.

So, 3 quarts of oil from the Jiffy Lube across the street and I was good to go, but fuck, I swear I took off 10 years of my life when I saw that engine bay. Anyway, hope this falls under the "ha ha ha, it's funny because it's not me" category. The blood vessels in my head have already done their bursting, I figure this story may as well be a good laugh for the rest of the world

[Seerlah]

I would have freaked also. Looks like a nice engine bay clean up is in order. But I'm wondering why you didn't get a low oil level warning before oil low pressure warning?

[Dan[FN]6262]

imagine how I felt when I pulled over because there was smoke coming out from under my hood, to find out that my oil return line was dumping oil onto my hot ass manifold, obviously catching on fire.... with nothing in the car to put it out with.... 40 mins from any civilization.

[Seerlah]

^You should invest in a fire extinguisher for your vehicle. First time I saw a thread of a forum member's car catching on fire, I went to the auto parts store and grabbed one up asap. Have it mounted to my subwoofer enclosure box, and plan on adding a second one. Better safe than sorry. Plus you would be able to help someone else out, if the situation calls for it.

[Dan[FN]6262]

I have been meaning to get one, I just keep forgetting

[ZimbutheMonkey]

I actually put one in after my fuel line cracked a few years back and pissed gasoline all over my cat when I opened the hood. So waaay ahead of you guys, but agree 200%

[ZimbutheMonkey]

So, last night ended up being her trial by fire, she passed... My buddy with S4 Frankenturbo setup and I did a little 'comparing' and it was neck and neck. He was down on boost some (19-20) Psi and I was misfiring quite a bit on the high RPM's, and had to make three shifts with my entire intake charge air getting blown out vs his two with instant boost recovery. So both of our cars definitely have some left on the table. IIRC, he trapped 114 Mph on that setup, even with a shite 13.xx ET (can't remember the exact number), so that gives you a pretty clear picture of where she's at for now.

All in all though, I was really happy with how she performed. I ran her for about 2 hours that night, no holds barred, 24 PSI and other than the misfires, she ran flawlessly.

[Seerlah]

Good to hear.

[SleeperAvant]

Nice stuff. Glad it's running!

[ZimbutheMonkey]

Also, here's footage of a few quick pulls. Not the greatest quality, but I figured I owe you guys something for following this thread so long. I'll try and get some better ones in a bit.

T04e 60-1 Passat 2nd gear pull - YouTube
T04e 60-1 Passat 2nd gear pull - YouTube

PS: if someone knows how to embed the video here, rather than having to go to youtube's site, let me know.

[Seerlah]

So, when you think you can consider your build officially safe (meaning, when you will be able to rest easy and drive the car with no real concerns)? 10,000 miles or so?

[ZimbutheMonkey]

Beats the hell out of me. Problem is, my sense of paranoia has often just been the eerie feeling of being right. I've always found that I alternate between my "ahh this is perfect and awesome" days and my "shhh, what the f*uck is that rattle?, AAAAHHHH my car is going to explode!!!' days. I swear, I have days where the raving derelict the corner with tinfoil on his head is more grounded in reality than I am.

I guess I'll just keep on drivin' her until something comes up and deal with it when it happens. No sense in bucking the trend right

[ZimbutheMonkey]

So figured I'd drop an update in. So far, she's holding up pretty well (knock on wood). I've been playing a bit with the Maestro. Most of it has been with the off boost timing. However I finally got her into some deeper waters tonight and got some good WOT 2-3 gear pulls in. I've been able to go fairly aggressive on the timing without getting it to pull it. I'm running about 40 degrees off boost up to 4500 RPM or so. Then I added some on boost. 25-30 degrees under boost seems to be working. I figured I'd toss in a VAG-VOM chart since it's the easiest to understand (for me at least)

These were done at about 18-19 PSI. I don't know how the scaling on the g/sec is set up relative to other files, so it probably doesn't mean much. However it's probably moving a good 40 lb/min FWIW. Timing is the dark blue line and the scaling is 0-100, so every horizontal line is 10 degrees BTDC.

[Seerlah]

Are you working off a base map from Tapp? If so, what did you have to do, if anything, to get it to run right?

[ZimbutheMonkey]

truth be told it was pretty good right off the hop. I documented the changes on the AEB + Maestro thread.