I think I just bent my valves while doing a timing belt job (help needed inside)

[diagnosticator]

Really doesn't sound too far off from being normal... All 1.8t that I've ever heard kind of have a tick, even mine and the dealership did my timing belt. It is a tad bit louder than normal but then again I'm not sure what my car sounded like before I started molesting it.

Yeah, all 1.8Ts sound kinda "busy" in the valve gear, but any distinct metallic mechanical tapping noise at the same rate that the cam is rotating at is not normal.

[m0nkey]

Here is a picture of the Cam position sensor and its at TDC. If this matters.

Im getting my Tensioner Pulley on thursday and my timing belt should be here wednesday. I will update you guys after im done.

[dougyfresh]

Yes, all four alternator bolts should be tight and the alternator should be flush against the accessory bracket.

Tension in the serpentine belt is taken up by the tensioner so all the accessories are bolted flush against the accessory bracket (alternator, power steering pump, a/c compressor).

Did you fix your alternator yet??

Do the simple things first that take 5minutes. Then move onto the harder things.

[m0nkey]

Did you fix your alternator yet??

Do the simple things first that take 5minutes. Then move onto the harder things.

Not yet im going to do everything all at once. Since its going to easier due to the fact that i have to drain my coolant and remove the hose.

[dougyfresh]

Not yet im going to do everything all at once. Since its going to easier due to the fact that i have to drain my coolant and remove the hose.

remove what hose? you can install/remove the alternator without having to touch any coolant.

[m0nkey]

The top coolant hose that connects to metal pipe, ontop of the intake manifold.


EDIT: Well i just finish reposition the alternator and you guys where right it was on wrong. It now sits flush with the engine block.

Still has the ticking sound but I have good compression.

[m0nkey]

Ok tomorrow im going to get all my parts in and i have a couple of questions.

Here is what I am going to do.

-Outline the old TB with whiteout and match it up to the new TB
-Retension my OLD tensioner.
-Get the correct spacing this time.

Here is the questions that i need help with.

-After i get the Cam and crank at TDC with the TB still on, I will take off the old TB and install the new TB can i rotate the camshaft sproket 1-2 teeth clockwise and the crank 1-2 teeth counter clockwise?

Im asking this questions because (davkav ) said The belt can be an absolute bitch to get on. What I did last time when my water pump went was loosen the bottom bolt on the tensioner (not the tensioner pulley, the actual tensioner) so that it can pivot out of the way some. Put the belt around the pulley and then fix the tensioner back in place.

This is exactly what im going to try out tomorrow. I would need to move the cam and crank 1-2 teeth out of TDC because after i install the new TB, I will try to install the bottom bolt of the tensioner, which will eventually push the timing belt counter clockwise for the Cam sprocket and clockwise for the Crank. IF you guys can picture it.


Thanks alot!

[mjfrizz]

good to hear about the alternator...the damn thing is nearly symmetrical so I'm sure it happens to alot of people...1-2 teeth is not problem, sounds like you know what to do in order to get your tick marks to line up

[B6Lovin]

Why are you rotating it out of timing?

[m0nkey]

Why are you rotating it out of timing?

Because when i try to re bolt on the lower tensioner assemble it will shift the belt counter clockwise 1-2 teeth. I remove the lower bolt because it will be easier to put on the belt. I tired todo it the first time but it's nearly impossible, so I had to use two flat heads to pray it on. But I read that it's bad to scretch the belt so I'm goingto replace it.

[m0nkey]

Ok guys I got a early start this morning, I marked the timing belt and the cam , water pump, and crank with white out. After i assembled everything i cranked the car twice and both the Cam and crank both match up but the white out markings doesnt. Is this ok? haha I mean i should be happy that everything lines up TDC.

Here is a picture for better explanation. I cranked the car 6 times haha and everything matched up for TDC.

[diagnosticator]

Yep, looks good! EDIT: Except you have not addressed the metallic tapping noise yet, chances are still practically 100% that the cams need to come out to replace the bad cam follower responsilble for the noise.

[m0nkey]

Yep, looks good!

Cool but are the markings on the TB and the Cam, waterpump, and crank that i made with the whiteout suppose to match up? I think eventually its suppose to match up.

[diagnosticator]

Yes, the crank/cam pulley marks will re align every two turns of the crankshaft. The marks on the timing belt may not align, but the marks on the crankshaft and the camshaft drive pulleys will align every two turns of the crankshaft. The only way the marks on the belt will also align, is if the number of belt teeth is an even multilple of the number of crankshaft pulley teeth, and then the belt marks will only realign every #multiple turns of the crankshaft. (See my edit of the post (#132) above.)

[m0nkey]

Yep, looks good! EDIT: Except you have not addressed the metallic tapping noise yet, chances are still practically 100% that the cams need to come out to replace the bad cam follower responsible for the noise.

How sure are you its the cam follower? What are the symptoms of a failing one? I might just take it to a mechanic to check it out. I dont feel like messing with the car anymore. The timing belt was a big job for me since it was my first attempt.

[diagnosticator]

EDITED: I'm practically 100% sure, based on the audio in the video you posted. Since the compression is ~even in all the cylinders, the only thing that can make that noise, is a cam follower that is not pumping up with oil properly, and is running with excessive clearance between the cam lobe and the cam follower. The noise is exactly the same as prior experience where the cam follower has failed to pump up and run at zero lash. Finally, a failed cam follower can result from turning the crankshaft without the belt installed. Instead of bending a valve, the valve stem tip can punch through the cam follower on the inside from the collision of the valve with the piston. The 1.8T is an interference motor, meaning the valves will hit the pistons if the belt is not driving the cam simultaneously from the crank. Since that is the case, turning the crank independently from the cam, something is going to collide. It is not possible to turn the two independently without a valve hitting a piston. (The only way this can be done is with all the pistons at 1/2 stroke, and then the cam only can be turned without valves hitting pistons.) The scenario connecting the events described and the symptoms is consistent associating the causative events with the resulting symptoms.

I fully understand getting tired of working on the car. Get a second opinion from someone familiar with the 1.8T. Please update here after having a second opinion.

[m0nkey]

Well i've just finish the car. I went to go get it scanned at Autozone and came back (3 minutes away). The car got to normal operating temperature. After i got back i did a comrpession test again with a hot engine. 150, 140, 160, 145. I will check the compression again on a cold engine. Could the ticking sound be the injectors?


Im uploading videos now.

Reving Engine just started the car after the TB change



Engine warmed to normal operating temperature.



Here is a clip of me driving it to autozone. I cant even hear the ticking noise with the windows rolled down and no front bumper nor headlights.

[m0nkey]

Ok guys I got a quick question, I installed the new timing belt, and before I pulled the 2" metal plate I hand cranked it twice to see it everything was TDC and it was. But after I reinstalled everything the cam is tdc but the crank moved counter clockwise 1/2 a tooth. Should I fix it or is it suppose to do that since it's a new belt? Will over time the belt will strech and it will move back to tdc?

[diagnosticator]

Ok guys I got a quick question, I installed the new timing belt, and before I pulled the 2" metal plate I hand cranked it twice to see it everything was TDC and it was. But after I reinstalled everything the cam is tdc but the crank moved counter clockwise 1/2 a tooth. Should I fix it or is it suppose to do that since it's a new belt? Will over time the belt will strech and it will move back to tdc?

Synchronous timing belts do not stretch in service. That is specifically not allowed for the cam drive to change with regards to the relative synchronization of the crank and the cams. The shift in the exhaust cam vs the crank, is 1/2 tooth advanced, Since the VVT changes intake cam timing relative to the crankshaft, of up to ~20 degrees on the cam, the ECU should adapt to that 1/2 tooth. Is the tension of the timing belt correct, tensioner adjusted Right?

[m0nkey]

Synchronous timing belts do not stretch in service. That is specifically not allowed for the cam drive to change with regards to the relative synchronization of the crank and the cams. The shift in the exhaust cam vs the crank, is 1/2 tooth advanced, Since the VVT changes intake cam timing relative to the crankshaft, of up to ~20 degrees on the cam, the ECU should adapt to that 1/2 tooth. Is the tension of the timing belt correct, tensioner adjusted Right?

Yes sir I made sure that the tensioner was installer correctly with the proper gapping (7mm). So can I just leave the timing belt alone or should I re do it? I'll take a picture of the bottom crank today and show y'all how much it is off by.

Ps I'm throwing the same code as before the tb change "cam positioning sensor" and I have a tough time starting my car like it would take 3-4 tries to start. is this problem related to the engine speed sensor? The one near the oil filter?

[m0nkey]

Here is the final setup on my timing belt before i put everything together. The Cam is TDC but the Crank is retard 1/2 a tooth is this fine? or do i need to fix it? I added about 3/4 quart of marvel mystery oil to see if it will help quiet down the motor. Well see in time if anything happened.







Video after i added marvel mystery oil, im going to drive it for a while and see if anything happens over time.

[bigblue]

After being told what to do numerous times by everyone you put another timing belt on and throw it all back together without testing or checking like everyone has mentioned... in post 136 diagnosticator told you what the problem is and you put it back together anyway. That's like if I unhooked one of my coilpacks and came on the forum and asked why my car was misfiring.

[a4huey09]

..."cam positioning sensor error"....think that might be important?? You might want to search for this error....this will make your car idle like crap or not run at all. why do you ignore the obvious errors and all the suggestions others have posted and stay on your same track....???

[diagnosticator]

Yes sir I made sure that the tensioner was installer correctly with the proper gapping (7mm). So can I just leave the timing belt alone or should I re do it? I'll take a picture of the bottom crank today and show y'all how much it is off by.

Ps I'm throwing the same code as before the tb change "cam positioning sensor" and I have a tough time starting my car like it would take 3-4 tries to start. is this problem related to the engine speed sensor? The one near the oil filter?

In the last videos, I actually did not hear the hard metallic ticking noise that was clearly evident before. (or the audio did not pick it up like before.) It's possible the cam follower had a bit of dirt in it that was preventing the follower from pumping up fully. With some running time, the dirt can be dislodged, allowing the follower to resume normal running clearance with the cam lobe.

Regarding the 1/2 advance of the crank marks you made, what needs to be demonstrated is the alignment of the marks on the vibration damper and the mark on the back plate, compared to the cam shaft pulley marks. I bet the apparent 1/2 tooth advance will disappear using the marks on the damper and the back plate.

[m0nkey]

In the last videos, I actually did not hear the hard metallic ticking noise that was clearly evident before. (or the audio did not pick it up like before.) It's possible the cam follower had a bit of dirt in it that was preventing the follower from pumping up fully. With some running time, the dirt can be dislodged, allowing the follower to resume normal running clearance with the cam lobe.

Regarding the 1/2 advance of the crank marks you made, what needs to be demonstrated is the alignment of the marks on the vibration damper and the mark on the back plate, compared to the cam shaft pulley marks. I bet the apparent 1/2 tooth advance will disappear using the marks on the damper and the back plate.

Thats good to hear. Well i went for a test drive and everything seems fine to me. Just that slight ticking noise bothers me. I cant hear it with my windows rolled down and without the spark plug cover on.

After i tried to put on the spark plug cover and start the car it started but it shaked like crazy and had no power. The first thing i did was check out the coil packs. If you have seen my previous pictures the coil pack harness are messed up beyond repair. After i removed the coil pack harness cylinder 2 just shorted it self with the prongs since there are no more plastic separating them, and it blew fuse #29 (20 Amp). I've replaced the fuse and the car started up but i got the flashing CEL and the shaking. I checked out my coil packs and i got 3 R's and 1 L. Im going to order or try to find a junkyard with a spare coil pack harness. If i cant find one im going to buy the one from ECS tuning and make it fit to the B6.

http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B6_A4-...o-1.8T/ES7679/

Here is a picture of TDC its still off a little is it ok to drive it like it is?





Here are pictures of my compression test (warm engine)









Most recent video!

[bananas]

looks good to me

[diagnosticator]

The timing marks look fine to me on the last pic showing the marks on the damper pulley and cam pulley. No evidence of 1/2 tooth misaligned now. If the cylinder 4 follower/s are still noisy, then the failed follower should be replaced.

The cam position sensor DTC is causing the hard starting. Without a solid cam position signal, the ECU does not know immediately what cylinder is on which stroke, so there is a delay in starting until the ECU figures out what cylinder is doing each stroke in the 4 stroke cycle, by using other means to determine where the cam is located in relation to the crankshaft.

It's interesting how many timing belt jobs have this cam position sensor DTC after reassembly, I still don't know what is causing this problem.

[dougyfresh]

It's interesting how many timing belt jobs have this cam position sensor DTC after reassembly, I still don't know what is causing this problem.

Are you noticing this a lot?

In all the 1.8T timing belt jobs I have done I have never seen a cam position sensor DTC after reassembly.

[mjfrizz]

If you are going to buy new coil packs from ECS order a Cam Position sensor too....they carry them as well. I think you said you were getting a code for this? Its right there in the front of the block near the top right

[diagnosticator]

Are you noticing this a lot?

In all the 1.8T timing belt jobs I have done I have never seen a cam position sensor DTC after reassembly.

Well maybe its relative, but the first one was COAVANT's engine build. He said the fix was to shift the sensor reluctor a little. And I have heard of others on the forum like this one. And one of the jobs I did has this error. Replacing the sensor and wiring to the ECU has not fixed it .

[dougyfresh]

Well maybe its relative, but the first one was COAVANT's engine build. He said the fix was to shift the sensor reluctor a little. And I have heard of others on the forum like this one. And one of the jobs I did has this error. Replacing the sensor and wiring to the ECU has not fixed it .

Note his engine has aftermarket camshafts.

[cdn20valve]

The only time I seen this code was when the cams were misaligned with the crank. In fact both cars were 3 teeth off on the timing belt. In both cases, upon installing the new timing belt, and put everything back together their were no codes.

[Matt Devo]

In all the 1.8T timing belt jobs I have done I have never seen a cam position sensor DTC after reassembly.

same here

[Matt Devo]

If you have seen my previous pictures the coil pack harness are messed up beyond repair.

get the harness replacement from 034

[diagnosticator]

Note his engine has aftermarket camshafts.

Yes, I am aware of that. In that case, the ECU does not know that the cams are aftermarket performance parts, only that the cam correlation with the crank was out of specification. Unless the reluctor keying with the intake cam position sensor was incorrectly machined, the fact that performance cams where installed has no bearing on the sensor DTC. In the case of the cam sensor DTC in this thread, the cam/crank timing has been shown as correct. Yet the sensor signal error DTC or the cam correlation with the crank DTC is present. I have not noticed anything discussed on this thread to explain why there is a cam sensor DTC now, when there was none before the TB replacement.

[m0nkey]

The timing marks look fine to me on the last pic showing the marks on the damper pulley and cam pulley. No evidence of 1/2 tooth misaligned now. If the cylinder 4 follower/s are still noisy, then the failed follower should be replaced.

The cam position sensor DTC is causing the hard starting. Without a solid cam position signal, the ECU does not know immediately what cylinder is on which stroke, so there is a delay in starting until the ECU figures out what cylinder is doing each stroke in the 4 stroke cycle, by using other means to determine where the cam is located in relation to the crankshaft

It's interesting how many timing belt jobs have this cam position sensor DTC after reassembly, I still don't know what is causing this problem.

put I already replaced the cam position sensor with a brand new one from rockwell. After I replaced it even before the timin belt it still threw a code. I resetted the ecu and the cel went off. But after the next start up it came back one and it still had the hard start up.

[Bische]

put I already replaced the cam position sensor with a brand new one from rockwell. After I replaced it even before the timin belt it still threw a code. I resetted the ecu and the cel went off. But after the next start up it came back one and it still had the hard start up.

Did you have the code before changing timing belt?

[m0nkey]

Yes I did, I was assuming it was the engine speed sensor, but I never got around to get the part.

[kwan]

Are you noticing this a lot?

In all the 1.8T timing belt jobs I have done I have never seen a cam position sensor DTC after reassembly.

x3. I had the fault with cat cams, none with schrick. And have yet to see it on a stock setup after belt job.