Update on EPL Stg 2/APR Exhaust Issue, Questions, & Help

[JBA87]

As previously reported, I experienced some issues with my EPL Stage 2 Tune and APR Downpipe Combination. Installed downpipes in November with O2 Spacers. Through CEL on install. Didn't think much of the CEL issue (presumed the O2 Spaces simply did not work considering that without O2 spaces APR downpipes will typical throw a CEL with EPL Tune and considering that oame have reported that the 02 Spacers do not always work).

Over next several months, car began acting unusual (didn't feel right when partially accelerating from moderate speeds) and exhibited progressively more unusual behavior (which was probably on-going cylinder misfires). The CEL would often begin blinking when these symptoms were present. I brought car in to shop and finally received codes today confirming several sensor issues (throwing too lean too rich) and multiple cylinder misfires on cylinders 1,4,5,7, and 8 (I have attached codes below). Technician removed the oxygen sensors and inspected the cats and found cat material to be melted. They also found that the current downpipes and catalytic converters were damaged and need to be replaced. Furthermore, they found that due to the damage to the cat, pieces of the cat had traveled into the exhaust system and believe that even with replacement of the downpipes a "rattle" may be present.

The shop believes that the EPL Tune is the culprit. Although this may not be the case. The original shop that installed the APR downpipes (not shop fixing car) admitted that it was their first time installing APR downpipes with O2 spacers EPL believes a possible cause is that the O2 spacers were improperly installed on the upstream/primary sensor vs. the downstream sensor. Alternatively, EPL believes that the primary sensors could have been damaged on the original install. EPL has only had one other reported incident of something similar happening and, in that case, the 02 spacers were improperly installed on the primary sensor. The shop that originally installed my downpipes does not recall whether they installed them on the primary or secondary sensors. The shop that is currently fixing the problem indicated that they were installed on the correct downstream sensors. If this is the case, then (absent the EPL tune being the issues) the only possible alternative is that the primary sensors were damaged on reinstall.

A visual inspection of the dates of the fault codes show that I threw some fault codes within the first two weeks after originally installing the downpipes and then not again until additional codes were thrown last week.

The issue is now what to do..

The shop is recommending that I get new Oxygen Sensors, Spark Plugs, APR Downpipes, and replace the EPL Tune with APR ECU and TCU Tune. A procedures that will cost a whopping $7,500 est. They will warranty this work and presumably will resolve all issues

The alternative is to simply replace the Oxygen Sensors, Spark Plugs, and APR Downpipes, but keep the EPL Tune. That will cost estimated $4,500ish. This however, takes on the risk of assuming that the cause of the issue was damages primary 02 sensors.

What to do?

Any alternatives?

Recommendations?

JA





Other Notes:
13 Faults Found:
7636 - Post-Catalyst Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor Correction; Bank 1
P2096 00 [237] - Too Lean
MIL ON - Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000001
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 2
Mileage: 12811 km
Date: 2017.11.24
Time: 09:42:19
Engine speed: 2259.00 /min
Normed load value: 20.4 %
Vehicle speed: 132 km/h
Coolant temperature: 96 °C
Intake air temperature: 44 °C
Ambient air pressure: 1010 mbar
Voltage terminal 30: 13.900 V
Unlearning counter according OBD: 40
Engine status: COENG_RUNNING
Engine status-Test_Program_Co Eng st COMPU VERB UBYTE: 3

15356 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor Signal B1 S2
P2270 00 [040] - too Lean
Intermittent - Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000001
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 43
Mileage: 12191 km
Date: 2017.11.16
Time: 18:39:50
Engine speed: 1378.00 /min
Normed load value: 16.9 %
Vehicle speed: 79 km/h
Coolant temperature: 102 °C
Intake air temperature: 45 °C
Ambient air pressure: 1010 mbar
Voltage terminal 30: 12.227 V
Unlearning counter according OBD: 35
Rear cat conv temp main cat conv model value: 521.22 °C
O2 sens. dwnstrm. of cat.: gradient transf. rich -> lean: 0.10 s
O2 sensor dwnstrm. of cat.: gradient transfer lean -> rich: 0.16 s
O2 sensor dwnstrm. of cat.: delay time transf. rich -> lean: 0.00 s
O2 sensor dwnstrm. of cat.: delay time transf. lean -> rich: 0.00 s

14790 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor B2 S2
P014B 00 [232] - Delayed Response Lean to Rich
MIL ON - Intermittent - Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000001
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 12191 km
Date: 2017.11.16
Time: 18:40:24
Engine speed: 1463.50 /min
Normed load value: 20.4 %
Vehicle speed: 71 km/h
Coolant temperature: 98 °C
Intake air temperature: 51 °C
Ambient air pressure: 1010 mbar
Voltage terminal 30: 13.805 V
Unlearning counter according OBD: 40
Rear cat conv temp main cat conv bank 2 model value: 514.00 °C
O2 sens. dwnstrm. of cat. bank 2: gradient transf. rich -> lean: 0.09 s
O2 sens. dwnstrm. of cat. bank 2: gradient transf. lean -> rich: 0.15 s
O2 sens.dwnstrm. of cat. bank 2: delay time transf.rich -> lean: 0.00 s
O2 sen dwnstrm. of cat. bank 2: delay time transf. lean -> rich: 1.09 s

14784 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor B2 S2
P013D 00 [096] - Response too Slow Lean to Rich
Intermittent - Not Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear

10203 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
P0300 00 [172] - -
MIL ON - Intermittent - Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000001
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 9
Mileage: 12921 km
Date: 2017.11.26
Time: 13:16:41
Engine speed: 2857.00 /min
Normed load value: 49.8 %
Vehicle speed: 63 km/h
Coolant temperature: 63 °C
Intake air temperature: 32 °C
Ambient air pressure: 1010 mbar
Voltage terminal 30: 13.758 V
Unlearning counter according OBD: 40
Engine status: COENG_RUNNING
Engine status-Test_Program_Co Eng st COMPU VERB UBYTE: 3

10591 - Cylinder 1
P0301 00 [172] - Misfire Detected
MIL ON - Intermittent - Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000001
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 2
Mileage: 15964 km
Date: 2018.02.07
Time: 18:16:35
Engine speed: 5823.00 /min
Normed load value: 43.9 %
Vehicle speed: 127 km/h
Coolant temperature: 97 °C
Intake air temperature: 57 °C
Ambient air pressure: 1020 mbar
Voltage terminal 30: 13.452 V
Unlearning counter according OBD: 40
Engine status: COENG_RUNNING
Engine status-Test_Program_Co Eng st COMPU VERB UBYTE: 3

10595 - Cylinder 5
P0305 00 [032] - Misfire Detected
Intermittent - Not Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
10594 - Cylinder 4
P0304 00 [172] - Misfire Detected
MIL ON - Intermittent - Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000001
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 2
Mileage: 15965 km
Date: 2018.02.07
Time: 18:17:07
Engine speed: 5292.50 /min
Normed load value: 50.2 %
Vehicle speed: 157 km/h
Coolant temperature: 100 °C
Intake air temperature: 71 °C
Ambient air pressure: 1020 mbar
Voltage terminal 30: 13.264 V
Unlearning counter according OBD: 40
Engine status: COENG_RUNNING
Engine status-Test_Program_Co Eng st COMPU VERB UBYTE: 3

10598 - Cylinder 8
P0308 00 [172] - Misfire Detected
MIL ON - Intermittent - Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000001
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 4
Mileage: 12991 km
Date: 2017.11.30
Time: 07:44:01
Engine speed: 3889.00 /min
Normed load value: 63.9 %
Vehicle speed: 85 km/h
Coolant temperature: 37 °C
Intake air temperature: 33 °C
Ambient air pressure: 1020 mbar
Voltage terminal 30: 13.428 V
Unlearning counter according OBD: 40
Engine status: COENG_RUNNING
Engine status-Test_Program_Co Eng st COMPU VERB UBYTE: 3

10597 - Cylinder 7
P0307 00 [172] - Misfire Detected
MIL ON - Intermittent - Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000001
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 5
Mileage: 12921 km
Date: 2017.11.26
Time: 13:16:41
Engine speed: 2857.00 /min
Normed load value: 49.8 %
Vehicle speed: 63 km/h
Coolant temperature: 63 °C
Intake air temperature: 32 °C
Ambient air pressure: 1010 mbar
Voltage terminal 30: 13.758 V
Unlearning counter according OBD: 40
Engine status: COENG_RUNNING
Engine status-Test_Program_Co Eng st COMPU VERB UBYTE: 3

4119 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor B2 S1
P2197 00 [237] - Signal too Low (Lean)
MIL ON - Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000001
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 12286 km
Date: 2017.11.18
Time: 16:16:40
Engine speed: 2196.00 /min
Normed load value: 23.5 %
Vehicle speed: 128 km/h
Coolant temperature: 98 °C
Intake air temperature: 42 °C
Ambient air pressure: 1010 mbar
Voltage terminal 30: 13.782 V
Unlearning counter according OBD: 40
Engine status: COENG_RUNNING
Engine status-Test_Program_Co Eng st COMPU VERB UBYTE: 3
4116 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor B1 S1
P2196 00 [237] - Signal too High (Rich)
MIL ON - Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000001
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 11
Mileage: 12022 km
Date: 2017.11.13
Time: 22:36:29
Engine speed: 1973.00 /min
Normed load value: 19.2 %
Vehicle speed: 115 km/h
Coolant temperature: 99 °C
Intake air temperature: 41 °C
Ambient air pressure: 1010 mbar
Voltage terminal 30: 12.816 V
Unlearning counter according OBD: 40
Engine status: COENG_RUNNING
Engine status-Test_Program_Co Eng st COMPU VERB UBYTE: 3

4201 - Fuel Level too Low
P1250 00 [032] - -

[OlyS6]

A few thoughts:

1) Won't the shop that did the downpipe and spacer install warranty their work? If not, would not use them again.
2) Would also talk to APR regarding the cats on their downpipes melting. That would be pretty unusual, as they are underneath the car in location and run colder then the stock cats. I would ask the vendor that sold them to you to replace them as it sounds like they may be defective.
3) First alternative: Revert to stock downpipes with stock cats and stock tune for a bit and run diagnostics to see what's working and what's not. This should help tell you whether there are residual problems with your O2 sensors or other equipment. Your spark plugs and O2 sensors may actually be ok.
4) A next step, since you already own the EPL tune, would be to simply use AMS downpipes, which keep the cats and the sensors in the stock location, so you wouldn't need O2 spacers, and run with that. The cost would then be an outlay of $3K plus install.
5) An alternative option would be to sell your EPL tunes, get new APR downpipes, and get the APR tune. The secondary sensors are coded out, so no need for O2 spacers in that scenario either, and the upgrade to stage 2 ECU tune is free with the downpipes. You'd still need to pay for Stage 1 and the TCU tune, however.

Sorry to hear this happened. Seems a bit unusual. Do you have any pics of the install? It would be pretty easy to tell if spacers were put in the wrong location, as they'd stick out like a sore thumb.

[IowaRS7]

So you burned up the APR Cats located that far away from the turbos? That seems crazy to me. There must have been an issue with the primary O2 sensors. One could go Catless after replacing the primary 02 sensors to make sure things seem to be fixed before adding expensive CATs back into the system or shelling out the dough for the APR tune. Just a thought.

[JBA87]

Unfortunately, I don't have pics of the original install. And, regrettably, the downpipes were purchased used from someone on audizine used. This fact eliminates 1 and 2, unfortunately.

Regarding you other points:

1. Three is a possibility. But, I want the downpipes on and it would cost me more to install originals just to take them off in a few.
2. Four I was looking into the AMS. This is also a possiblity despite the additional cost.
3. Five This is essentially what the tune is suggesting.

Another option I am contemplating is to have this shop simply order the APR downpipes and install with my EPL tune installed. Then I could periodically test the codes every few weeks.. if I throw a code.. get APR TUne.

This would potentially be the cheapest option, abset just installing my old stock downpipes and not upgrading back to stage 2.

[JBA87]

Unfortunately, I don't know enough about the mechanics to know exactly what happened other than what is written on the inspection ticket and my brief conversations with the shop.

The repair ticket stats: THE TECHNICIAN PROCEEDED TO REMOVE THE OXYGEN SENSORS,
AND INSPECT THE CONDITION OF THE CATS, AND FOUND THE CAT MATERIAL TO BE MELTED.
IN ORDER TO FIX WE RECOMMENDED NEW
DOWNPIPES, NEW OXYGEN SENSORS, NEW SPARK PLUGS, AND AN UPDATE TO APR SOFTWARE.

It further reads:
**CURRENT DOWNPIPES CATALYTIC CONVERTERS
HAVE BEEN DAMAGED AND NEED TO BE REPLACED ALONG WITH THE OXYGEN SENSORS**
**DUE TO THE DAMAGE TO THE CAT, PIECES
OF THE CAT HAVE TRAVELED INTO THE EXHAUST SYSTEM, PLEASE NOTE THAT WITH
THE REPLACEMENT OF THE DOWNPIPES, A RATTLE MAY BE PRESENT, IF SO EXHAUST
MUST BE REPLACED FOR NEW IN ORDER TO REMOVE THE CAT MATERIAL**

My conversations indicated that the honeycomb inside the cat is essentially gone and there is minimal left. There are three pictures attached that are someone difficult to see.

[JBA87]

the images looks like the primary 02 sensor attached, then removed, and then a shot of the inside of the cat via a camera that must have been extended into the hole where the primary sensor is (if I had to guess).

[OlyS6]

Unfortunately, I don't have pics of the original install. And, regrettably, the downpipes were purchased used from someone on audizine used. This fact eliminates 1 and 2, unfortunately.

Regarding you other points:

1. Three is a possibility. But, I want the downpipes on and it would cost me more to install originals just to take them off in a few.
2. Four I was looking into the AMS. This is also a possiblity despite the additional cost.
3. Five This is essentially what the tune is suggesting.

Another option I am contemplating is to have this shop simply order the APR downpipes and install with my EPL tune installed. Then I could periodically test the codes every few weeks.. if I throw a code.. get APR TUne.

This would potentially be the cheapest option, abset just installing my old stock downpipes and not upgrading back to stage 2.

Just keep in mind that if you use APR downpipes with an EPL tune, make sure that Vibrant J shaped spacers with the smallest hole restrictor are placed at the secondary O2 sensors underneath the car so that you don't throw CELs.

[ryanlada]

What about getting a pair of quality cats and simply cut out the old ones from the existing APR pipes and welding in the new ones. Would be cheapest option since you don't need to remove anything else and would give you time and money to sort out the other issues.

[wwhan]

What about getting a pair of quality cats and simply cut out the old ones from the existing APR pipes and welding in the new ones. Would be cheapest option since you don't need to remove anything else and would give you time and money to sort out the other issues.

Here is an option for cats: http://www.jegs.com/p/Vibrant-Performance/Vibrant-Performance-GESi-HO-UHO-Universal-OBD2-Catalytic-Converters/3170442/10002/-1

This is a nice one:
Vibrant Performance 7830 GESi Ultra High Output Catalytic Converter Rated for 500-850HP,
Part Number: 231-7830 http://www.jegs.com/i/Vibrant-Performance/231/7830/10002/-1

[DGVR6]

Remove the o2 spacers.
Replace cats and you should be good.

If the ECU thinks it’s running lean it’s a possibility that it was dumping a crazy amount a fuel which would help destroy those cats, even a few misfires will do it. The apr cat is further down so it’ll probably take longer to fail than oem

Question, is 2017.11.16 the date that the shop installed your downpipes?

[nvygw171]

Slightly off topic but those pops and bang that everyone loves, wouldn't they be harder on the cats as well?

[DGVR6]

Slightly off topic but those pops and bang that everyone loves, wouldn't they be harder on the cats as well?

Audi supposedly programmed the feature to stop when they’re on the brink of damaging the turbos and cats

[pez81]

What about getting a pair of quality cats and simply cut out the old ones from the existing APR pipes and welding in the new ones. Would be cheapest option since you don't need to remove anything else and would give you time and money to sort out the other issues.

What this guy said. I would suggest contacting APR directly about them replacing their hardware FOC. Long shot but melting the cats, i can't believe EPLs tune did that. They were probably either faulty to start with or installed incorrectly which in either case why should you have to foot the bill. Consumer rights have to cover you somewhere.

Hope you sort it mate that sucks.

There are people running stage 2 on stock cats which haven't melted, so updated cast downpipes melting, hmmmm

[JBA87]

DGVR6:

The date was actually November 13th 2017

[JBA87]

I like the idea of replacing the catalytic converters. Again it's just the mesh inside that has melted. But, wouldn't I also need to replace the oxygen sensors and purchase another O2 spacer to stop the a CEL with the EPL tube. If not, wouldn't I risk running into this problem again.

I'm still trying to understand what specifically caused the mis-fires, fuel delivery problems, and resulting damage to the material in the catalytic converter.. If it's not a damaged oxygen sensor, what could it have conceived been? The downpipes were on for only 3 months before this problem developed.

[Dasquade]

For what it is worth, my tuner once told stage 2 is pretty demanding on the cats (bit the reason why i went catless and now got a pair of aftermarket cats to put on other exhaust to swap when i have to go to the car inspection and hoping i pass). But again an other S that is having misfire issues.
What milage you have on the car?
If it is melting your cats that are in fact farther away then stock (not sure how much difference it makes) but makes me wonder what it does with the oxygen sensors.

[Tony@EPL]

I like the idea of replacing the catalytic converters. Again it's just the mesh inside that has melted. But, wouldn't I also need to replace the oxygen sensors and purchase another O2 spacer to stop the a CEL with the EPL tube. If not, wouldn't I risk running into this problem again.

I'm still trying to understand what specifically caused the mis-fires, fuel delivery problems, and resulting damage to the material in the catalytic converter.. If it's not a damaged oxygen sensor, what could it have conceived been? The downpipes were on for only 3 months before this problem developed.

Hello - Chris@EPL brought me up to speed on the situation last night and Ive already spoke to the owner of the shop where your car is.

Believe it or not we probably have more stage 2 S6/S7 cars running the APR down pipes then any others. If there were a wide spread tune issue MANY others would be having issues as well.

Based on your description of events Im roughly concluding something occurred AROUND installed time frame (failed OE ignition component, damaged 02, etc) that caused misfires.... Extend periods of time driving with misfires is what my theory ultimately took out ONE cat. The fact that this appears to be a SINGLE bank issue is another strong indication you originally had a single bank misfire issue (which again would not be a tune issue).

We ALWAYS advise that any occurrences of misfires get resolved immediately because cat damage is almost inevitable from prolonged driving+misfires. Any flashing check engine lights need to be addressed ASAP and driving generally should be limited to conditions which do not make the condition occur.

The good news is you are in one of the best shops in southern FL that coincidentally we have a strong history of working closely with.

[Joe'sS6]

I would go to the shop personally and speak to the tech who inspected the car, try to find out if the spacers where in fact in the front sensors or not. If so, there is your source for the problem, if not they must dig deeper. They should test the O2 sensors, if OK, then the ignition and fuel delivery systems. Only after that, have just the Cats replaced for better ones, using the same DownPipes. It is to notice, that the shop recomends to change the Tune and EPL says they know each other well, either the shop wants to over sell or they actually do not thrust EPL that much.

It could also be that the Downpipes where already damaged when you bought them used. On the bright side, consider you where lucky that the cats did not clog and blew the engine.

[JBA87]

Tony:

Appreciate the comments. What do you recommend as as solution. Do you think I should ask the shop to simply weld new CATS onto the existing APR Downpipes and replace the 02 Sensors and Spark Plugs. Or, should I have them perform more tests?

I don't think the solution is to buy brand new downpipes and switch to the APR ECU/TCU tune at this time.

JA

[JBA87]

I also like the concept of having the shop actually determine whether the primary and/or secondary O2 sensors are faulty. Again, I am being told that the spacers were only secondary not the primary, but I have no direct evidence of that.

JA

[Tony@EPL]

I would go to the shop personally and speak to the tech who inspected the car, try to find out if the spacers where in fact in the front sensors or not. If so, there is your source for the problem, if not they must dig deeper. They should test the O2 sensors, if OK, then the ignition and fuel delivery systems. Only after that, have just the Cats replaced for better ones, using the same DownPipes. It is to notice, that the shop recomends to change the Tune and EPL says they know each other well, either the shop wants to over sell or they actually do not thrust EPL that much.

It could also be that the Downpipes where already damaged when you bought them used. On the bright side, consider you where lucky that the cats did not clog and blew the engine.

Thats just a sales department doing what a sale department does.... Ive tuned several personal cars for the owner himself. He's in good hands.

[Tony@EPL]

Tony:

Appreciate the comments. What do you recommend as as solution. Do you think I should ask the shop to simply weld new CATS onto the existing APR Downpipes and replace the 02 Sensors and Spark Plugs. Or, should I have them perform more tests?

I don't think the solution is to buy brand new downpipes and switch to the APR ECU/TCU tune at this time.

JA

New cats, Id recommend a higher quality unit that would not require any spacer at all. THEN have a qualified technician determine what parts are faulty.