View Full Version : Meth for Cooling
GRUMPY-S4
08-19-2016, 08:26 PM
Based on the threads I have read and some initial logs from a local buddy (using the AEM Meth setup with a 500cc Nozzel right after the filter element on his ROC Euro) it seems a 50/50 Meth/H2O mix adds octane (seeing 1.5psi extra) but does very little for IATs.
Would a 40/60 Meth/H2O mix help IATs more? Or maybe its dependant on Nozzle location?
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jran76
08-19-2016, 08:31 PM
Based on the threads I have read and some initial logs from a local buddy (using the AEM Meth setup with a 500cc Nozzel right after the filter element on his ROC Euro) it seems a 50/50 Meth/H2O mix adds octane (seeing 1.5psi extra) but does very little for IATs.
Would a 40/60 Meth/H2O mix help IATs more? Or maybe its dependant on Nozzle location?
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I think the 1.5 extra PSI is coming from cooler (more dense) air. With that, extra boost creates more heat once it goes through the S/C, so some of the cooling effects are negated in terms of IAT's.
GRUMPY-S4
08-19-2016, 08:31 PM
I think the 1.5 extra PSI is coming from cooler (more dense) air. With that, extra boost creates more heat once it goes through the S/C, so some of the cooling effects are negated in terms of IAT's.
Thats what Tom and I were discussing. So the IAT is measured post charger?
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Correct, its post charger. Meth would benefit for extra fueling though...
Our set-up isn't ideal, post charger doesn't give an appropriate amount of time for atomization, pre charger ends up getting re-heated through the S/C rotors. I'm not sure how others are set up, they may be setting good iat control.
GRUMPY-S4
08-19-2016, 09:00 PM
So maybe with meth I can continue to run E85 with the 179 crank pulley and CTS SC pulley.
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So maybe with meth I can continue to run E85 with the 179 crank pulley and CTS SC pulley.
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I think you can run it now, others have. Did you get your EPC/CEL cured yet?
GRUMPY-S4
08-19-2016, 09:05 PM
I think you can run it now, others have. Did you get your EPC/CEL cured yet?
Yea... Cured with latest file. AndThen is going with a bigger pulley and I am taking his JHM 179. Now with Meth he has been able to run E82 without any bypass. Without the meth he would bypass. He normally had to run E70 or lower.
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Yea... Cured with latest file. AndThen is going with a bigger pulley and I am taking his JHM 179. Now with Meth he has been able to run E82 without any bypass. Without the meth he would bypass. He normally had to run E70 or lower.
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Depending on your lambda values, you will probably be fine on the 179mm without meth. If you do run into issues, then you may need to blend down to the e70 range, which in my past experience is easier than dealing with whether not the meth pump triggers, and if there is sufficient flow for proper AFR at WOT, and air in the lines.
GRUMPY-S4
08-19-2016, 09:14 PM
Depending on your lambda values, you will probably be fine on the 179mm without meth. If you do run into issues, then you may need to blend down to the e70 range, which in my past experience is easier than dealing with whether not the meth pump triggers, and if there is sufficient flow for proper AFR at WOT, and air in the lines.
Is Tom still working on your car? Tell him to tell u about my Golf R fiasco build that he had to fix!
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jimrobbington
08-19-2016, 09:14 PM
The problem here is the amount of time you have to cool the air. Meth is more effective or can be, on a turbo car. The turbo compresses the air, then there are usually several feet of pipe, combined with an air to air intercooler. You can inject meth pre-intercooler to get the biggest drop in IATs. With our engine, the meth didn't have time to cool anything much, as it's intgested into the engine almost immediately.
...with that being said, its terrible that we are so limited in cooling. The 179mm is so much controllable and consistent with IAT's than higher ratios. Good luck to you both!
jimrobbington
08-19-2016, 09:16 PM
I'm not saying don't do it though lol. It's still got plenty of advantages!
jran76
08-19-2016, 09:16 PM
Depending on your lambda values, you will probably be fine on the 179mm without meth. If you do run into issues, then you may need to blend down to the e70 range, which in my past experience is easier than dealing with whether not the meth pump triggers, and if there is sufficient flow for proper AFR at WOT, and air in the lines.
E70 seemed to be the point where andthen ran out of steam in the past....
Is Tom still working on your car? Tell him to tell u about my Golf R fiasco build that he had to fix!
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Not lately, he only installed my coldfront, awe pulley, and jhm crank pulley, pretty "basic" hardware stuff so far. He doesn't do much from the tuning side that's available for our platform, aside from Malone tuning for B8 only guys. Everything else has been Evan@CrownMotorsports or Justin@UroTuning with my doing my own logging/testing what was installed, what happened to your Golf R?
E70 seemed to be the point where andthen ran out of steam in the past....
Was E70 the max or min threshold?
Either way, if Grumpy triggers a lean code on e82-e83, he may need to blend to reduce the ethanol if he's at the limit. He may or may not be, only way to find out to to try it and log.
Hofahome
08-19-2016, 10:00 PM
Yea... Cured with latest file. AndThen is going with a bigger pulley and I am taking his JHM 179. Now with Meth he has been able to run E82 without any bypass. Without the meth he would bypass. He normally had to run E70 or lower.
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At e82 was he bypassing because of heat or because he was starting to lean out?
GRUMPY-S4
08-19-2016, 10:05 PM
At e82 was he bypassing because of heat or because he was starting to lean out?
Because of Injector Pulse Width. Never a pressure issue. He was just not able to get enough fuel in the cylinder above E70.
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xpoweruk
08-20-2016, 12:11 AM
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/342406-Water-Meth-applications-for-S-Ced-S4-RS4?p=4877386&viewfull=1#post4877386 may be of interest to you.
Furthermore, we have found that different compressors require more or less jetting. For example, twins screws and roots style superchargers with the water injection placed before the compressor require nearly one and a half times the jetting as do centrifugals and turbochargers at the same horsepower and boost levels. This is largely due to the injection being sprayed through the unit, the vast surface area of the rotors and due to the added heat they create vs. centrifugals and turbochargers."
Because of Injector Pulse Width. Never a pressure issue. He was just not able to get enough fuel in the cylinder above E70.
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On the 179mm?
glad to see that he's out to see if the S/C will hold up to 26,000rpm!
BlownOne
08-20-2016, 07:16 AM
Because of Injector Pulse Width. Never a pressure issue. He was just not able to get enough fuel in the cylinder above E70.
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Injectors will stay "wide open" past a certain idc% and they basically turn into fire hoses lol. I would still say any fuel shortage issues will be fuel pressure related.
BlownOne
08-20-2016, 07:20 AM
On the 179mm?
glad to see that he's out to see if the S/C will hold up to 26,000rpm!
It's going to be a furnace without every trick in the book for cooling. Iats after a gear or two will shut down the fun real quick!
GRUMPY-S4
08-20-2016, 08:56 AM
Injectors will stay "wide open" past a certain idc% and they basically turn into fire hoses lol. I would still say any fuel shortage issues will be fuel pressure related.
He never got low rail pressure codes
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GRUMPY-S4
08-20-2016, 09:02 AM
Injectors will stay "wide open" past a certain idc% and they basically turn into fire hoses lol. I would still say any fuel shortage issues will be fuel pressure related.
But the width of that "pulse" factors in... Doesnt it? What he found was that the time it was a "fire hose" was too short
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SwankP3RF3ct10n
08-20-2016, 09:08 AM
An extremely small dry fogger of nitrous would work much better. Not enough to actually boost power because of it, but enough to give you a cooler intake of air and also cool down everything in that intake tract up until right before the engine ingests it. You'd plumb it right after the filter or even within the intake box if you have it. The idea is to mimic the car sucking in cool winter air, not a shot of nitrous. Like I said, the fogger has to be really small and you'd have to play around with it and figure out what works best and to what point.
613B6
08-20-2016, 10:20 AM
I run the AEM meth kit with an iabed meth plate at the TB and didn't see lower iats until I switched over to the 1000cc/min nozzle. The middle sized one (500cc/min) helped some but soon as I switched to the large one all knock was gone and iats delta in a 1-4 pull decreased by 10 degrees. I also have a HE and this is on the 183mm. I haven't tried race file yet but might today.
GRUMPY-S4
08-20-2016, 11:05 AM
I run the AEM meth kit with an iabed meth plate at the TB and didn't see lower iats until I switched over to the 1000cc/min nozzle. The middle sized one (500cc/min) helped some but soon as I switched to the large one all knock was gone and iats delta in a 1-4 pull decreased by 10 degrees. I also have a HE and this is on the 183mm. I haven't tried race file yet but might today.
Where did you buy the plate?
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GRUMPY-S4
08-27-2016, 08:35 AM
Nevermind... Found it
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colby7
08-27-2016, 02:24 PM
Where did you find it?
GRUMPY-S4
08-27-2016, 03:44 PM
Iabed industries sells them
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b8s4me
08-27-2016, 07:39 PM
Do you have a link? I can't find the Iabed meth plate.
lowjonathan
08-27-2016, 08:41 PM
I run the AEM meth kit with an iabed meth plate at the TB and didn't see lower iats until I switched over to the 1000cc/min nozzle. The middle sized one (500cc/min) helped some but soon as I switched to the large one all knock was gone and iats delta in a 1-4 pull decreased by 10 degrees. I also have a HE and this is on the 183mm. I haven't tried race file yet but might today.
Nice info
just to check are u running on 93 octane on 183mm?
thanks
Ze_Nardo6
08-28-2016, 06:18 AM
Depending on your lambda values, you will probably be fine on the 179mm without meth. If you do run into issues, then you may need to blend down to the e70 range, which in my past experience is easier than dealing with whether not the meth pump triggers, and if there is sufficient flow for proper AFR at WOT, and air in the lines.
I currently run an APR pulley with a JHM 179 full e85 with no issues and I'm in Texas as well (directed towards Grumpy).
GRUMPY-S4
08-28-2016, 11:10 AM
I currently run an APR pulley with a JHM 179 full e85 with no issues and I'm in Texas as well (directed towards Grumpy).
Same EPL tune? What ethanol content? My local buddy has the EPL tune with the APR pulley and was never able to run above E70 without having codes. Since adding Meth he is running E82-E85 without any issues.
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Ze_Nardo6
08-29-2016, 07:27 AM
Same EPL tune? What ethanol content? My local buddy has the EPL tune with the APR pulley and was never able to run above E70 without having codes. Since adding Meth he is running E82-E85 without any issues.
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I don't have an ethonal analyzer, That's next on my mod list. But I'm guessing e70-75 based on reviews of the station where I fill up.
613B6
08-29-2016, 10:05 AM
Nice info
just to check are u running on 93 octane on 183mm?
thanks
Yes 94+meth on a 183mm. I have a bigger pulley coming in shortly to try out now that I got my IATs where I want them with a second nozzle in the intake pipe.
GRUMPY-S4
08-29-2016, 12:52 PM
Yes 94+meth on a 183mm. I have a bigger pulley coming in shortly to try out now that I got my IATs where I want them with a second nozzle in the intake pipe.
So your running 1000cc on the Plate and how much in the second nozzle?
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hckymstr19
08-30-2016, 09:56 AM
Do you guys have a link to that iabed meth plate?