View Full Version : Head to Head comparisons of S6/7 Stg 2 vs. Stg 3?
madyspop
08-19-2016, 08:49 AM
Has anyone had any live comparisons of stage 2 and 3 in real world or track settings? It would be nice to see if it's worth the extra money by seeing more than just numbers on paper?
0-60's, 1/4 mile runs, from a roll, anything really? Also what software was the stage 2 car running, we all know APR is the only game in town for the stage 3 cars.
Lastly are any other tuners going to be releasing a stage 3 tune or will we always be handcuffed by APR?
TurtleHaste
08-19-2016, 08:58 AM
I can't speak for the vendors, but stage 1 + intake my S6 ran an 11.6 @ 117.
At Stage 3, I ran three consecutive 10 sec passes the first and only time I went out with it that way. 10.9, 10.8, 10.7, @ 130.9 mph. Worth it or not will be up to the buyer.
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madyspop
08-19-2016, 09:07 AM
I can't speak for the vendors, but stage 1 + intake my S6 ran an 11.6 @ 117.
At Stage 3, I ran three consecutive 10 sec passes the first and only time I went out with it that way. 10.9, 10.8, 10.7, @ 130.9 mph. Worth it or not will be up to the buyer.
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Fantastic input, would love to see some stage 2 numbers so we can truly bridge the gap. What software were you on when stage 1?
pez81
08-19-2016, 09:14 AM
Great thread I'd like to hear about this also
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Djpeaksd
08-19-2016, 09:15 AM
I can't speak for the vendors, but stage 1 + intake my S6 ran an 11.6 @ 117.
At Stage 3, I ran three consecutive 10 sec passes the first and only time I went out with it that way. 10.9, 10.8, 10.7, @ 130.9 mph. Worth it or not will be up to the buyer.
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Yeah that is a huge difference! Were the conditions stage 1 vs. stage 3 similar?
pez81
08-19-2016, 10:08 AM
You can buy rs turbos for less than downpipes I think which makes that argument even more favourable
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PennState08
08-19-2016, 10:23 AM
This is a great topic. Sorry if this question is amateur, but does one need upgraded downpipes (along with the upgraded turbos, stage 3 software etc.) in order to be stage 3? Or can you do stage 3 regardless of downpipes? Don't mean to hijack the thread, but I'm interested in this long-term.
You can buy rs turbos for less than downpipes I think which makes that argument even more favourable
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Not sure I follow. I thought even just the turbos themselves without any extra parts was at least $4500...unless you are saying used?
pez81
08-19-2016, 03:07 PM
Not sure I follow. I thought even just the turbos themselves without any extra parts was at least $4500...unless you are saying used?
Yeah I find em used for £850each
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Yeah I find em used for £850each
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Interesting. I wonder what people are upgrading to beyond RS7 turbos over there?
richib86
08-19-2016, 09:31 PM
Interesting. I wonder what people are upgrading to beyond RS7 turbos over there?
TTE turbos
pez81
08-20-2016, 03:32 AM
Interesting. I wonder what people are upgrading to beyond RS7 turbos over there?
I think hybrids on these with someone like TTE
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Has anyone had any live comparisons of stage 2 and 3 in real world or track settings? It would be nice to see if it's worth the extra money by seeing more than just numbers on paper?
0-60's, 1/4 mile runs, from a roll, anything really? Also what software was the stage 2 car running, we all know APR is the only game in town for the stage 3 cars.
Lastly are any other tuners going to be releasing a stage 3 tune or will we always be handcuffed by APR?
1. Real world vs track:
Stock turbos with a tune may be better suited for real world. With the S6/7 engine design/transmission, etc, the faster spooling of the smaller turbos may make real world drivability better, at like speeds up to 80mph or thereabouts. On the track (and by that I mean drag strip), the bigger turbos will, of course, be dominant.
2. 0-60, 1/4 mile, from a roll:
Stock turbos with a tune may not be much different to 60 than Stage 3 due to the earlier spooling of the smaller turbos. 1/4 mile is a given that the bigger turbos are easily dominant, and likewise with a rolling start.
3. Other tuners:
This will happen. In Europe, ABT and MTM both have bigger turbo options. APR has routinely been the first in the U.S.
I only remember this stuff from back in my B5 S4 days. My stage 3 would only start to pull on a stage 2 car once we got to like 60-70.
I think hybrids on these with someone like TTE
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And now I'm wondering what "Stage TTE" is doing in the 1/4 etc. :)
MikeDwerks
08-20-2016, 05:52 AM
1. Real world vs track:
Stock turbos with a tune may be better suited for real world. With the S6/7 engine design/transmission, etc, the faster spooling of the smaller turbos may make real world drivability better, at like speeds up to 80mph or thereabouts. On the track (and by that I mean drag strip), the bigger turbos will, of course, be dominant.
2. 0-60. 1/4 mile, from a roll:
Stock turbos with a tune may not be much different to 60 than Stage 3 due to the earlier spooling of the smaller turbos. 1/4 mile is a given that the bigger turbos are easily dominant, and likewise with a rolling start.
3. Other tuners:
This will happen. In Europe, ABT and MTM both have bigger turbo options. APR has routinely been the first in the U.S.
I only remember this stuff from back in my B5 S4 days. My stage 3 would only start to pull on a stage 2 car once we got to like 60-70.
RS6/7 turbo upgrade is fairly mild (in the grand scheme of turbo upgrades) and I don't think there is any evidence to suggest this. It's not like its a conversion to a giant basketball sized single turbo where the boost does not come on until 5k rpm's. Pretty subtle differences between the two turbo's, think it is just a larger inlet and different compressor wheel IIRC? There is not a tone of 3rd party independent data out there, but one form member did post their stg 1v stg 3 dyno and there is not a loss anywhere in the rpm range to suggest a car would be "quicker" with the stock turbo's. See post 90 below
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/699933-S6-Stage-3-Build-Thread/page3
Dguth
08-20-2016, 06:31 AM
Yeah, that was my build. Attaching picture below of the before and after dyno going from stage 1 to stage 3. There's no turbo lag in the lower rpms. Don't know about stage 2 but it blows stage 1 out of the water.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160820/35d89cc1204618cfafaafb76145e8b52.jpg
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TurtleHaste
08-20-2016, 07:54 AM
The car is definitely potentially quicker than with stock turbos. Even 0-60, but you don't often see it because traction becomes the issue and that's another animal altogether. Making the power vs putting it all to the ground without having to intervene. Limited wheel/tire options present challenges when it comes to that. Never been in a stage 2 setup but I'd imagine it's very similar in the 0-60 due to traction but yes lag isn't really an issue. It's just getting the right launch with the right tire at the right rpm and not putting down too much that you get an awd spin on your way into the top of 1st gear. I have to early shift just to avoid that and still managed a 10.7. I'd like to see more stage 2 details.
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MikeDwerks
08-20-2016, 09:01 AM
Yeah, that was my build. Attaching picture below of the before and after dyno going from stage 1 to stage 3. There's no turbo lag in the lower rpms. Don't know about stage 2 but it blows stage 1 out of the water.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160820/35d89cc1204618cfafaafb76145e8b52.jpg
Documenting your turbo upgrade was awesome, thanks for doing that. So few of these conversions, especially with some before and after results. And I am sure you know there is probably more than can be gotten out of your set up with a revised tune if one of the companies would just do it. From what I have read, the APR stg 3 tune was developed really early on for one of the first cars to do the swap and they were probably conservative since it was a bit uncharted territory and probably worried about the DSG
TurtleHaste
08-20-2016, 09:41 AM
APR stage 3 - version 2 would be nice. For folks with adequate charge air cooling and if they can release it advising additional oil cooling would be sufficient if you ask me. I just want more power. I think the best would be to get more aggressive in the 5500-7000 rpm ranges as to leave the torque peaks alone and not worry about the DSG still.
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madyspop
08-20-2016, 10:17 AM
I have stage 2 and I can't get the tires to hook no matter what, I'm on 265/35/20 PSS and they all break loose overytime. I'm sure I'm launching wrong which isn't helping the situation.
So I've seen a couple posts about stage 1 vs. stage 3 but nothing comparing stage 2 to 3 like I was hoping this thread would do.
TurtleHaste
08-20-2016, 10:25 AM
The difference will be in trap speed and an even more difficult launch/traction scenario.
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Dguth
08-20-2016, 11:32 AM
APR stage 3 - version 2 would be nice. For folks with adequate charge air cooling and if they can release it advising additional oil cooling would be sufficient if you ask me. I just want more power. I think the best would be to get more aggressive in the 5500-7000 rpm ranges as to leave the torque peaks alone and not worry about the DSG still.
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I agree Turtle. We need a revised tune for stage 3. Hoping EPL comes out with this.
Question, what's your oil temps running during spirited driving? I run between 219 and 224 during dynamic driving and between 215 and 219 with normal mode. I have noticed after installing the roc euro intake my oil temps ticked up about 2 to 3 degrees on average.
Last question Turtle, what RPMs are you launching at? Even launching around 2k to 3k rpm I still get a little wheel spin.
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TurtleHaste
08-20-2016, 01:07 PM
I launched at 4500 I think. Which was too high as I never got below a 1.73 60 foot or so. My oil temps if I baby it stay below 210. Like 206 or so usually. If I drive more stop n go, it's up towards 210-215. More spirited, it's in the 220s. Seeing 226-228 once or twice when really being hard. Multiple all main gear pulls.
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Thisisnoise
08-20-2016, 02:19 PM
Slightly off topic but does anyone make an oil cooler system for the s7?
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MadAboutCars
08-20-2016, 03:20 PM
Yeah, that was my build. Attaching picture below of the before and after dyno going from stage 1 to stage 3. There's no turbo lag in the lower rpms. Don't know about stage 2 but it blows stage 1 out of the water.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160820/35d89cc1204618cfafaafb76145e8b52.jpg
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That graph is so misleading, from a low end torque point of view. It shows that a standard S6 has no power or torque below 2600 rpm. Compare it to Unitronic's S6 graph below.
The RS turbos definitely have more lag. I have driven both around town, and even with 8 speeds, it is quite obviously worse than the S6.
https://www.getunitronic.com/media/images/blog/unitronic-performance-software-for-c7c7-5-s6-and-s7/C7Only_S6-S7_STAGE1_V8.jpg
MikeDwerks
08-20-2016, 04:41 PM
That graph is so misleading, from a low end torque point of view. It shows that a standard S6 has no power or torque below 2600 rpm. Compare it to Unitronic's S6 graph below.
The RS turbos definitely have more lag. I have driven both around town, and even with 8 speeds, it is quite obviously worse than the S6.
https://www.getunitronic.com/media/images/blog/unitronic-performance-software-for-c7c7-5-s6-and-s7/C7Only_S6-S7_STAGE1_V8.jpg
I don't know if I would call it misleading... On Dguth's graph they simply did not start sampling super early nor at the same time on the two different runs, so it is indeed not the 100% most accurate comparison as it could be. But at the same time Unitroics graph is not an actual dyno graph, but simply the numbers charted out in a program to make it look nicer, and I have to believe there is always a bit of "smoothing" with those, not necessarily in a deceiving way, just in a making it look nicer way. Who knows how many data points they pulled to create their curves.
MadAboutCars
08-20-2016, 05:16 PM
I don't know if I would call it misleading... On Dguth's graph they simply did not start sampling super early nor at the same time on the two different runs, so it is indeed not the 100% most accurate comparison as it could be. But at the same time Unitroics graph is not an actual dyno graph, but simply the numbers charted out in a program to make it look nicer, and I have to believe there is always a bit of "smoothing" with those, not necessarily in a deceiving way, just in a making it look nicer way. Who knows how many data points they pulled to create their curves.
My point was that Dguth's graph does no show the area where turbo lag occurs and in fact made it look like the RS turbos come on sooner, which they don't. People should understand that the RS turbos combined with the seven speed dsg, will make the turbo lag even more noticeable than the RS cars.
TurtleHaste
08-20-2016, 05:45 PM
The lag is barely noticeable compared to the old turbos. I'd say at max a 500 rpm difference where even below that, the RS turbos are still flowing more than the stockers where it counts. Also keep in mind on an 8 speed you might notice the lag more (in person) due to the shorter gears but there is also the difference of a slightly higher compression ratio for the S6 setups if I'm not mistaken. If this is true, an RS engine might feel less responsive than the S. Someone please correct me if I'm mistaken on the engine compression.
Anyhow there is a slight lag increase from stock. I'll admit that but it takes some paying attention to for you to notice it, and I'd still have to admit this is one of the least laggy cars I've owned, even after stage 3.
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Dguth
08-20-2016, 05:50 PM
I can attest to driving both turbos that if there is lag with the rs turbos it's hardly noticeable compared to the s versions. Of course if you're driving in dynamic, they come on pretty fast irregardless. Where the rs turbos sing is when you get above the 4500 to 6000 rpm range. My S6 prior to this always felt a little lacking in this area.
Back to Madyspops original question, would really like to see some real world dyno comparisons between stage 1 and stage 2 S6 or S7 cars. I don't think I've seen anyone post up yet a comparison so we can see a real delta between the two.
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TurtleHaste
08-20-2016, 05:53 PM
Back to Madyspops original question, would really like to see some real world dyno comparisons between stage 1 and stage 2 S6 or S7 cars. I don't think I've seen anyone post up yet a comparison so we can see a real delta between the two.
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You mean difference between stages 2 & 3
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Dguth
08-20-2016, 06:40 PM
You mean difference between stages 2 & 3
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That's true but I don't think I've seen a baseline stage 1 dyno compared to a stage 2. Obviously we see what's on the APR website but I don't think I've seen a post showing a real world comparison. For example if my delta was +80whp and +100wtq, would be interested for someone to show theirs going from stage 1 to 2. Even though we may not see a stage 2 to 3 comparison, evaluating a stage 1 to 2 delta against the gain from mine may help inform a directional difference.
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TDUB26
08-22-2016, 07:44 AM
Great discussion! I'm likely to upgrade from Stage 2 to Stage 3 after the car show season ends; if this is still an issue, will have them do before/after dyno runs.
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TurtleHaste
08-22-2016, 08:12 AM
Please do - if it's not a bother. More comparison never hurts. That being said we should start looking for clutch pack, aftermarket turbos, fueling, and oil cooling options. I believe those are the only things holding the S6/7 platform from 1000+ AWHP "beast mode" status.
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richib86
08-22-2016, 11:18 AM
I'd be happy to line up with any stage 1, 2 or 3 cars for comparisons!
Clipse3GT
08-22-2016, 11:37 AM
Please do - if it's not a bother. More comparison never hurts. That being said we should start looking for clutch pack, aftermarket turbos, fueling, and oil cooling options. I believe those are the only things holding the S6/7 platform from 1000+ AWHP "beast mode" status.
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If Dodson builds clutch packs for any other DSG. Probably would not be an issue to build some for the S6 just need enough people and interest.
DGVR6
08-22-2016, 11:45 AM
I'd be happy to line up with any stage 1, 2 or 3 cars for comparisons!
Richi, no one takes up on that offer we can do that once my break in is over. I'll go stage 1/tcu first.
Thisisnoise
08-22-2016, 12:20 PM
If Dodson builds clutch packs for any other DSG. Probably would not be an issue to build some for the S6 just need enough people and interest.
I would be in to this
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madyspop
08-22-2016, 12:33 PM
I would be in to this
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As will I...
richib86
08-22-2016, 12:48 PM
id be in too for clutch packs
TurtleHaste
08-22-2016, 01:21 PM
id be in too for clutch packs
count me in...
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TDUB26
08-22-2016, 01:26 PM
Please do - if it's not a bother. More comparison never hurts. That being said we should start looking for clutch pack, aftermarket turbos, fueling, and oil cooling options. I believe those are the only things holding the S6/7 platform from 1000+ AWHP "beast mode" status.
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Absolutely...I am surprised we don't really have aftermarket turbo options yet
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richib86
08-22-2016, 01:38 PM
Absolutely...I am surprised we don't really have aftermarket turbo options yet
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i think the bigger issue is the space under the hood and and in the valley. custom manifolds would most likely need to be made to fit everything in there.
Chris Morales
08-22-2016, 03:23 PM
I want to get serious about an E85 conversion (first preference) or meth system. Frustrating to have to rely on race gas. Give us the damn parts man! Then I want to see what those TTE upgraded turbos will do over my stock S8 turbos on the new fuel. Reworked turbos in the existing housings should flow enough for low 10s.
TurtleHaste
08-22-2016, 03:37 PM
More aggressive custom tune on race gas could get you low 10s in the right conditions, and yea e85 would be nice but our direct injection setup cannot push that much fuel to fully utilize it. There's always a way though.
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Chris Morales
08-23-2016, 11:58 AM
I'm looking for consistently faster times (a consistently faster car), not hero runs or a way to hypermanage test conditions. I'm driving a stage 2 S8 - 200 lbs heavier than your car and with a different transmission, but similar enough. It runs 7.1s at 100 in the 1/8th in the summer (would be 11.0 or 10.9 in the 1/4). That's only if I let it cool for 90 minutes between runs and don't idle it in the staging lanes. No race gas tune or state of conditions would get this car into the low 10s (though it may run mid 10s on 104 octane). I want consistent high 6s in the 1/8 and mid 10s in the quarter in the summer. Need to do something about engine heat.
I understand the issue with direct injection. Who, if anyone, is trying to overcome this? Doesn't seem to be on the radar. What is the hp and flow limit of the stock fueling system? What is the Total Race RS7 running for fueling? Let's look for an upgrade to the direct injectors, if we think we need those. For example, according to APR the S3/Golf R direct injectors are "capable of supporting over 500 HP" in a 4 cylinder application. https://www.goapr.com/products/injectors_bosch_hdev_1.html
That's support for 1000+ hp with 8 direct injectors. Convert that roughly to the flow you would need for E85 (been stated as 30% more than for E10) and a set of 8 should support about 770 hp running E85. Do these fit the 4.0T motor? Maybe they are already in there. It's been said that the 4.0T is really two 2.0T motors merged into one. Maybe there is some conformity. It seems there is no activity in this area and it's frustrating. We have these $100K cars we don't want to ruin and no one is pushing the technological envelope. We don't hear of the few that do spend on major engine mods (instead of rims) pursuing this.
TurtleHaste
08-23-2016, 02:53 PM
You'll need pump upgrades also. This should be a thread on its own to gauge interest and pool the information together.
By the way a custom tune on rs7 trim has already managed a 10.3 so I just think it's in the ball park of what you're looking for without spending too much. I'd say a good 80 ft-lb in the torque band is enough to net you a mid-low 10 pass on the s8 chassis. And about 80 ft-lbs over what is currently advertised among the main suppliers is about what was achieved. About 40+ AWHP gain in the band where you'll spend your time WOT. Dunno about summer time but definitely fall and early spring ideal conditions. Watched a 10.4 pass with my own eyes on stock rs7 turbos with good traction, downpipes and custom tune. It's doable. Just about the limit on the setup and it was fuel they were running out of first. Injectors were at their limit with MS 109. Turbos have a hair more steam in them but fueling doesn't. E85 is a whole different beast.
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TurtleHaste
08-23-2016, 03:02 PM
Btw I ran a best of 6.97 1/8 and that was a 10.7 with a 1.7x non optimal launch, and stock wheels, street non r compound 255/35/r20 tires, nitto 555 extremes... Shifting into 5th before the trap, an overdrive, manually shifting each gear by the way. It's less than ideal and that's on a standard APR tune which makes less power than the RS7 / S8 APR maps offered on 104.
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Avned
08-23-2016, 03:54 PM
That's true but I don't think I've seen a baseline stage 1 dyno compared to a stage 2. Obviously we see what's on the APR website but I don't think I've seen a post showing a real world comparison. For example if my delta was +80whp and +100wtq, would be interested for someone to show theirs going from stage 1 to 2. Even though we may not see a stage 2 to 3 comparison, evaluating a stage 1 to 2 delta against the gain from mine may help inform a directional difference.
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I'm definitely going to be dynoing when my APR stage 2 and downpipes go in. Should be any day now. Been waiting over 12 weeks now. Where are the DPs APR?
Dguth
08-23-2016, 04:27 PM
I'm definitely going to be dynoing when my APR stage 2 and downpipes go in. Should be any day now. Been waiting over 12 weeks now. Where are the DPs APR?
Great! Do you already have your stage 1 baseline?
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Avned
08-23-2016, 08:25 PM
Great! Do you already have your stage 1 baseline?
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Yes. Along with stock. My dyno results are in the link in my signature. I will be updating it once its done. Stage 3 after that! [:D]
What I'm interested in and perhaps more to the OP's point is the advertised spec of StageIII is 555awh 622awt and that is with the stage II downpipes. Whereas StageII is advertised as 517awh 651awt . I know those are peak numbers but what does a small boost in peak HP but an equally small drop in peak TQ relate to on the track?
TurtleHaste
08-24-2016, 09:34 AM
On Stage 3, I was below 555 AWHP when I dyno tested, but close. Would have been higher if it wasn't my 4th back-to-back run and didn't have the heat soak from barely any fanning in front of the car. The reason for the repeated runs; we needed to disable the ABS sensor for codes not to be thrown. It appeared this was due to the VCDS lowering I'd done, and when strapped and tightened to the dyno, the height was forcibly reduced, and being past the height measurement threshold caused it to throw a code. On the 4th run, we made 547 hp, and 594 tq. Mustang Dyno. If I get the Stage 2 downpipes, I'll dyno again maybe. The Milltek downpipes are on it, but the APR stage 2 pipes might make for a slight benefit to be had. I'm still on the fence.
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zanyewest
09-04-2016, 10:33 AM
i ran 11.21 with a 1.67 60 foot on stage 2 apr 104 file. miltek catless turboback roc euro intake. full weight and heavy rotiform cbu 20x10.5 with stretched 255/35 pirelli pzero
MikeDwerks
09-05-2016, 06:28 AM
i ran 11.21 with a 1.67 60 foot on stage 2 apr 104 file. miltek catless turboback roc euro intake. full weight and heavy rotiform cbu 20x10.5 with stretched 255/35 pirelli pzero
What was your trap speed?
Aadel@E1motorsports
09-05-2016, 04:00 PM
I'm definitely going to be dynoing when my APR stage 2 and downpipes go in. Should be any day now. Been waiting over 12 weeks now. Where are the DPs APR?
Hi, we have one set in stock ready to ship tomorrow. Message me for details.
MikeDwerks
09-16-2016, 04:23 PM
Did not think this was worth its own thread, but it seems to me there is a path to a reasonable cost turbo upgrade utilizing used RS6, RS7, S8 turbo's and no downpipes.
used turbo's seem to be plentiful looking through ebay germany, probably get a set for around $2K shipped. I think guys are paying over $5K for new ones, correct?
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Audi-S8-4H-4-0-TFSI-Turbolader-Turbo-079145703F-079145704F-erst-43Tkm-/172333280384?hash=item281fdd2c80:g:0aQAAOSwNsdXRFG h
Downpipes should not really be necessary, as the RS7 does just fine with the stock downpipes on the stock turbo's. Not that they would not be nice to have, but should not be necessary
Ze_Nardo6
09-17-2016, 08:52 AM
Has anyone had any live comparisons of stage 2 and 3 in real world or track settings? It would be nice to see if it's worth the extra money by seeing more than just numbers on paper?
0-60's, 1/4 mile runs, from a roll, anything really? Also what software was the stage 2 car running, we all know APR is the only game in town for the stage 3 cars.
Lastly are any other tuners going to be releasing a stage 3 tune or will we always be handcuffed by APR?
Not handcuffed by APR. EPL is in the process now for a stage 3 tune. They were just looking for a car to help development
madyspop
09-17-2016, 09:02 AM
Not handcuffed by APR. EPL is in the process now for a stage 3 tune. They were just looking for a car to help development
That sounds great but I've been down the "in the process" road before and it has always been never ending.
Ze_Nardo6
09-17-2016, 09:04 AM
That sounds great but I've been down the "in the process" road before and it has always been never ending.
That's because APR is the absolute worst at gauging timing for releasing any product. Last time I was waiting for a new tune for my S4 (dual pulley running e85 which no tuner had), EPL had one developed in less than a few months. They move quickly and test rigorously. You'll see.
madyspop
09-17-2016, 09:39 AM
That's because APR is the absolute worst at gauging timing for releasing any product. Last time I was waiting for a new tune for my S4 (dual pulley running e85 which no tuner had), EPL had one developed in less than a few months. They move quickly and test rigorously. You'll see.
I hope you're right, we shall see. I was really wanting to stay with my GIAC software for my stage 3 setup but they aren't interested in developing a tune for it. I was pretty upset after several failed attempts to convince them otherwise.
Ze_Nardo6
09-17-2016, 01:52 PM
I hope you're right, we shall see. I was really wanting to stay with my GIAC software for my stage 3 setup but they aren't interested in developing a tune for it. I was pretty upset after several failed attempts to convince them otherwise.
I feel your pain, it's tough when a tuner you work with, and that you like, is not interested in the same level of performance as you.
As far as EPL and stage 3 goes, they don't have a customer car yet that is willing to do the upgrade. I know they're shopping the forums for a volunteer. I would jump on that in a heartbeat if I was anywhere close to the northeast and had my car.