Head to Head comparisons of S6/7 Stg 2 vs. Stg 3?

**madyspop** · 08-19-2016 09:49 AM

Has anyone had any live comparisons of stage 2 and 3 in real world or track settings? It would be nice to see if it's worth the extra money by seeing more than just numbers on paper?

0-60's, 1/4 mile runs, from a roll, anything really? Also what software was the stage 2 car running, we all know APR is the only game in town for the stage 3 cars.

Lastly are any other tuners going to be releasing a stage 3 tune or will we always be handcuffed by APR?

**TurtleHaste** · 08-19-2016 09:58 AM

I can't speak for the vendors, but stage 1 + intake my S6 ran an 11.6 @ 117.
At Stage 3, I ran three consecutive 10 sec passes the first and only time I went out with it that way. 10.9, 10.8, 10.7, @ 130.9 mph. Worth it or not will be up to the buyer.

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**madyspop** · 08-19-2016 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by TurtleHaste

I can't speak for the vendors, but stage 1 + intake my S6 ran an 11.6 @ 117.
At Stage 3, I ran three consecutive 10 sec passes the first and only time I went out with it that way. 10.9, 10.8, 10.7, @ 130.9 mph. Worth it or not will be up to the buyer.

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Fantastic input, would love to see some stage 2 numbers so we can truly bridge the gap. What software were you on when stage 1?

**pez81** · 08-19-2016 10:14 AM

Great thread I'd like to hear about this also

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**Djpeaksd** · 08-19-2016 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by TurtleHaste

I can't speak for the vendors, but stage 1 + intake my S6 ran an 11.6 @ 117.
At Stage 3, I ran three consecutive 10 sec passes the first and only time I went out with it that way. 10.9, 10.8, 10.7, @ 130.9 mph. Worth it or not will be up to the buyer.

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Yeah that is a huge difference! Were the conditions stage 1 vs. stage 3 similar?

**pez81** · 08-19-2016 11:08 AM

You can buy rs turbos for less than downpipes I think which makes that argument even more favourable

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**PennState08** · 08-19-2016 11:23 AM

This is a great topic. Sorry if this question is amateur, but does one need upgraded downpipes (along with the upgraded turbos, stage 3 software etc.) in order to be stage 3? Or can you do stage 3 regardless of downpipes? Don't mean to hijack the thread, but I'm interested in this long-term.

**gk1** · 08-19-2016 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by pez81

You can buy rs turbos for less than downpipes I think which makes that argument even more favourable

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Not sure I follow. I thought even just the turbos themselves without any extra parts was at least $4500...unless you are saying used?

**pez81** · 08-19-2016 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by gk1

Not sure I follow. I thought even just the turbos themselves without any extra parts was at least $4500...unless you are saying used?

Yeah I find em used for £850each

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**gk1** · 08-19-2016 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by pez81

Yeah I find em used for £850each

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Interesting. I wonder what people are upgrading to beyond RS7 turbos over there?

**richib86** · 08-19-2016 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by gk1

Interesting. I wonder what people are upgrading to beyond RS7 turbos over there?

TTE turbos

**pez81** · 08-20-2016 04:32 AM

Originally Posted by gk1

Interesting. I wonder what people are upgrading to beyond RS7 turbos over there?

I think hybrids on these with someone like TTE

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**VVG** · 08-20-2016 05:18 AM

Originally Posted by madyspop

Has anyone had any live comparisons of stage 2 and 3 in real world or track settings? It would be nice to see if it's worth the extra money by seeing more than just numbers on paper?

0-60's, 1/4 mile runs, from a roll, anything really? Also what software was the stage 2 car running, we all know APR is the only game in town for the stage 3 cars.

Lastly are any other tuners going to be releasing a stage 3 tune or will we always be handcuffed by APR?

1. Real world vs track:

Stock turbos with a tune may be better suited for real world. With the S6/7 engine design/transmission, etc, the faster spooling of the smaller turbos may make real world drivability better, at like speeds up to 80mph or thereabouts. On the track (and by that I mean drag strip), the bigger turbos will, of course, be dominant.

2. 0-60, 1/4 mile, from a roll:

Stock turbos with a tune may not be much different to 60 than Stage 3 due to the earlier spooling of the smaller turbos. 1/4 mile is a given that the bigger turbos are easily dominant, and likewise with a rolling start.

3. Other tuners:

This will happen. In Europe, ABT and MTM both have bigger turbo options. APR has routinely been the first in the U.S.

I only remember this stuff from back in my B5 S4 days. My stage 3 would only start to pull on a stage 2 car once we got to like 60-70.

**gk1** · 08-20-2016 06:19 AM

Originally Posted by pez81

I think hybrids on these with someone like TTE

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And now I'm wondering what "Stage TTE" is doing in the 1/4 etc. :)

**MikeDwerks** · 08-20-2016 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by VVG

1. Real world vs track:

Stock turbos with a tune may be better suited for real world. With the S6/7 engine design/transmission, etc, the faster spooling of the smaller turbos may make real world drivability better, at like speeds up to 80mph or thereabouts. On the track (and by that I mean drag strip), the bigger turbos will, of course, be dominant.

2. 0-60. 1/4 mile, from a roll:

Stock turbos with a tune may not be much different to 60 than Stage 3 due to the earlier spooling of the smaller turbos. 1/4 mile is a given that the bigger turbos are easily dominant, and likewise with a rolling start.

3. Other tuners:

This will happen. In Europe, ABT and MTM both have bigger turbo options. APR has routinely been the first in the U.S.

I only remember this stuff from back in my B5 S4 days. My stage 3 would only start to pull on a stage 2 car once we got to like 60-70.

RS6/7 turbo upgrade is fairly mild (in the grand scheme of turbo upgrades) and I don't think there is any evidence to suggest this. It's not like its a conversion to a giant basketball sized single turbo where the boost does not come on until 5k rpm's. Pretty subtle differences between the two turbo's, think it is just a larger inlet and different compressor wheel IIRC? There is not a tone of 3rd party independent data out there, but one form member did post their stg 1v stg 3 dyno and there is not a loss anywhere in the rpm range to suggest a car would be "quicker" with the stock turbo's. See post 90 below

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...d-Thread/page3

**Dguth** · 08-20-2016 07:31 AM

Yeah, that was my build. Attaching picture below of the before and after dyno going from stage 1 to stage 3. There's no turbo lag in the lower rpms. Don't know about stage 2 but it blows stage 1 out of the water.

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**TurtleHaste** · 08-20-2016 08:54 AM

The car is definitely potentially quicker than with stock turbos. Even 0-60, but you don't often see it because traction becomes the issue and that's another animal altogether. Making the power vs putting it all to the ground without having to intervene. Limited wheel/tire options present challenges when it comes to that. Never been in a stage 2 setup but I'd imagine it's very similar in the 0-60 due to traction but yes lag isn't really an issue. It's just getting the right launch with the right tire at the right rpm and not putting down too much that you get an awd spin on your way into the top of 1st gear. I have to early shift just to avoid that and still managed a 10.7. I'd like to see more stage 2 details.

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**MikeDwerks** · 08-20-2016 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by Dguth

Yeah, that was my build. Attaching picture below of the before and after dyno going from stage 1 to stage 3. There's no turbo lag in the lower rpms. Don't know about stage 2 but it blows stage 1 out of the water.

Documenting your turbo upgrade was awesome, thanks for doing that. So few of these conversions, especially with some before and after results. And I am sure you know there is probably more than can be gotten out of your set up with a revised tune if one of the companies would just do it. From what I have read, the APR stg 3 tune was developed really early on for one of the first cars to do the swap and they were probably conservative since it was a bit uncharted territory and probably worried about the DSG

**TurtleHaste** · 08-20-2016 10:41 AM

APR stage 3 - version 2 would be nice. For folks with adequate charge air cooling and if they can release it advising additional oil cooling would be sufficient if you ask me. I just want more power. I think the best would be to get more aggressive in the 5500-7000 rpm ranges as to leave the torque peaks alone and not worry about the DSG still.

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**madyspop** · 08-20-2016 11:17 AM

I have stage 2 and I can't get the tires to hook no matter what, I'm on 265/35/20 PSS and they all break loose overytime. I'm sure I'm launching wrong which isn't helping the situation.

So I've seen a couple posts about stage 1 vs. stage 3 but nothing comparing stage 2 to 3 like I was hoping this thread would do.

**TurtleHaste** · 08-20-2016 11:25 AM

The difference will be in trap speed and an even more difficult launch/traction scenario.

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**Dguth** · 08-20-2016 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by TurtleHaste

APR stage 3 - version 2 would be nice. For folks with adequate charge air cooling and if they can release it advising additional oil cooling would be sufficient if you ask me. I just want more power. I think the best would be to get more aggressive in the 5500-7000 rpm ranges as to leave the torque peaks alone and not worry about the DSG still.

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I agree Turtle. We need a revised tune for stage 3. Hoping EPL comes out with this.

Question, what's your oil temps running during spirited driving? I run between 219 and 224 during dynamic driving and between 215 and 219 with normal mode. I have noticed after installing the roc euro intake my oil temps ticked up about 2 to 3 degrees on average.

Last question Turtle, what RPMs are you launching at? Even launching around 2k to 3k rpm I still get a little wheel spin.

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**TurtleHaste** · 08-20-2016 02:07 PM

I launched at 4500 I think. Which was too high as I never got below a 1.73 60 foot or so. My oil temps if I baby it stay below 210. Like 206 or so usually. If I drive more stop n go, it's up towards 210-215. More spirited, it's in the 220s. Seeing 226-228 once or twice when really being hard. Multiple all main gear pulls.

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**Thisisnoise** · 08-20-2016 03:19 PM

Slightly off topic but does anyone make an oil cooler system for the s7?

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**MadAboutCars** · 08-20-2016 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by Dguth

Yeah, that was my build. Attaching picture below of the before and after dyno going from stage 1 to stage 3. There's no turbo lag in the lower rpms. Don't know about stage 2 but it blows stage 1 out of the water.

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That graph is so misleading, from a low end torque point of view. It shows that a standard S6 has no power or torque below 2600 rpm. Compare it to Unitronic's S6 graph below.

The RS turbos definitely have more lag. I have driven both around town, and even with 8 speeds, it is quite obviously worse than the S6.

**MikeDwerks** · 08-20-2016 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by MadAboutCars

That graph is so misleading, from a low end torque point of view. It shows that a standard S6 has no power or torque below 2600 rpm. Compare it to Unitronic's S6 graph below.

The RS turbos definitely have more lag. I have driven both around town, and even with 8 speeds, it is quite obviously worse than the S6.

I don't know if I would call it misleading... On Dguth's graph they simply did not start sampling super early nor at the same time on the two different runs, so it is indeed not the 100% most accurate comparison as it could be. But at the same time Unitroics graph is not an actual dyno graph, but simply the numbers charted out in a program to make it look nicer, and I have to believe there is always a bit of "smoothing" with those, not necessarily in a deceiving way, just in a making it look nicer way. Who knows how many data points they pulled to create their curves.

**MadAboutCars** · 08-20-2016 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by MikeDwerks

I don't know if I would call it misleading... On Dguth's graph they simply did not start sampling super early nor at the same time on the two different runs, so it is indeed not the 100% most accurate comparison as it could be. But at the same time Unitroics graph is not an actual dyno graph, but simply the numbers charted out in a program to make it look nicer, and I have to believe there is always a bit of "smoothing" with those, not necessarily in a deceiving way, just in a making it look nicer way. Who knows how many data points they pulled to create their curves.

My point was that Dguth's graph does no show the area where turbo lag occurs and in fact made it look like the RS turbos come on sooner, which they don't. People should understand that the RS turbos combined with the seven speed dsg, will make the turbo lag even more noticeable than the RS cars.

**TurtleHaste** · 08-20-2016 06:45 PM

The lag is barely noticeable compared to the old turbos. I'd say at max a 500 rpm difference where even below that, the RS turbos are still flowing more than the stockers where it counts. Also keep in mind on an 8 speed you might notice the lag more (in person) due to the shorter gears but there is also the difference of a slightly higher compression ratio for the S6 setups if I'm not mistaken. If this is true, an RS engine might feel less responsive than the S. Someone please correct me if I'm mistaken on the engine compression.

Anyhow there is a slight lag increase from stock. I'll admit that but it takes some paying attention to for you to notice it, and I'd still have to admit this is one of the least laggy cars I've owned, even after stage 3.

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**Dguth** · 08-20-2016 06:50 PM

I can attest to driving both turbos that if there is lag with the rs turbos it's hardly noticeable compared to the s versions. Of course if you're driving in dynamic, they come on pretty fast irregardless. Where the rs turbos sing is when you get above the 4500 to 6000 rpm range. My S6 prior to this always felt a little lacking in this area.
Back to Madyspops original question, would really like to see some real world dyno comparisons between stage 1 and stage 2 S6 or S7 cars. I don't think I've seen anyone post up yet a comparison so we can see a real delta between the two.

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**TurtleHaste** · 08-20-2016 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by Dguth

Back to Madyspops original question, would really like to see some real world dyno comparisons between stage 1 and stage 2 S6 or S7 cars. I don't think I've seen anyone post up yet a comparison so we can see a real delta between the two.

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You mean difference between stages 2 & 3

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**Dguth** · 08-20-2016 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by TurtleHaste

You mean difference between stages 2 & 3

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That's true but I don't think I've seen a baseline stage 1 dyno compared to a stage 2. Obviously we see what's on the APR website but I don't think I've seen a post showing a real world comparison. For example if my delta was +80whp and +100wtq, would be interested for someone to show theirs going from stage 1 to 2. Even though we may not see a stage 2 to 3 comparison, evaluating a stage 1 to 2 delta against the gain from mine may help inform a directional difference.

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**TDUB26** · 08-22-2016 08:44 AM

Great discussion! I'm likely to upgrade from Stage 2 to Stage 3 after the car show season ends; if this is still an issue, will have them do before/after dyno runs.

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**TurtleHaste** · 08-22-2016 09:12 AM

Please do - if it's not a bother. More comparison never hurts. That being said we should start looking for clutch pack, aftermarket turbos, fueling, and oil cooling options. I believe those are the only things holding the S6/7 platform from 1000+ AWHP "beast mode" status.

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**richib86** · 08-22-2016 12:18 PM

I'd be happy to line up with any stage 1, 2 or 3 cars for comparisons!

**Clipse3GT** · 08-22-2016 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by TurtleHaste

Please do - if it's not a bother. More comparison never hurts. That being said we should start looking for clutch pack, aftermarket turbos, fueling, and oil cooling options. I believe those are the only things holding the S6/7 platform from 1000+ AWHP "beast mode" status.

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If Dodson builds clutch packs for any other DSG. Probably would not be an issue to build some for the S6 just need enough people and interest.

**DGVR6** · 08-22-2016 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by richib86

I'd be happy to line up with any stage 1, 2 or 3 cars for comparisons!

Richi, no one takes up on that offer we can do that once my break in is over. I'll go stage 1/tcu first.

**Thisisnoise** · 08-22-2016 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by Clipse3GT

If Dodson builds clutch packs for any other DSG. Probably would not be an issue to build some for the S6 just need enough people and interest.

I would be in to this

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**madyspop** · 08-22-2016 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by Thisisnoise

I would be in to this

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As will I...

**richib86** · 08-22-2016 01:48 PM

id be in too for clutch packs

**TurtleHaste** · 08-22-2016 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by richib86

id be in too for clutch packs

count me in...

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Thread: Head to Head comparisons of S6/7 Stg 2 vs. Stg 3?

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