Looking for opinions on block rebuild, options, etc...

[drewgold]

So I picked up a used 06F block with OE pistons and rods (does not include crankshaft) from @CanadianA4B7 on the forum. Looking for thoughts on what makes the most sense to do as far as a build/rebuild goes. Been following some of the build threads out there and loving all of the great info. @aluthman's thread is an incredible resource!

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160416/6bda19032744962a88ff3d058fea30e2.jpg

The reason I picked up the block is that I had my entire cylinder head replaced under the cam follower warranty last year after a catastrophic cam follower/fuel pump failure. The dealer refused to replace or even check the crankshaft, bearings, block, etc. and I have been concerned since then that my main bearings/rod bearings/balance shafts may have been damaged by debris and are a ticking time-bomb.

In my mind, it seems like a bit of a waste to have a brand new shiny head sitting on a block with just over 100k miles on it and being fed by an oil pump that could destroy it without notice. Especially given that there may also have been damage to the crankshaft/bearings from the cam follower failure.

The big picture: I don't have plans to got BT or make any kind of crazy horsepower. My goal is modest gains while maintaining reliability and longevity. Likely the limit of my performance mods would be JHM Stage 2 HPFP programming and an upgraded FMIC. (On top of the usual HFC, exhaust, etc.) I currently own the JHM stage 1 tune but have not installed it yet for fear of awaking the demons that lurk inside my block.

My original plan was to track down a matching crankshaft for the block I acquired and have the short block rebuilt to OE spec with the possible addition of a 1.8t oil pump (I also picked up a used 1.8t oil pump from @CanadianA4B7) to replace the OE 2.0t oil pump/balance shafts. I'm not 100% sold on the 1.8t conversion but am seriously considering it.

This way, I could have the new block installed at a time of my choosing (limiting down time to only a day or so) and effectively have a brand new engine that I won't have to worry about for years.

I have also been considering modest build options too:


Looked into doing a 2.0 to 2.1 stroker but talked to a few builders who advised against it. Sounds like there are better routes to take if I'm going a build route.

I think boring the engine is more of a cost/investment than I want to take on so not really wanting to go that route.

Updated internals? Is there much benefit to going with something like IE drop in rods, rifle drilling and upgraded/coated bearings with OE pistons? Or is it overkill to upgrade from OEM if my plan isn't to go beyond a stock turbo and a JHM Stage 2 tune? Can OEM rods be rifle drilled?

Any other recommendations?


A final option would be to have the block rebuilt and put into storage, ready to go for the day that may or may not come with the failure of a bearing or oil pump. Obviously there is some higher risk of damaging the head with this approach but maybe my block is just fine and has another hundred thousand miles left in it!

In the end, cost is a big factor, with my main goal being to have a reliable daily driver with an engine that is robust, can withstand some spirited driving, and will buy me a few hundred thousand more miles of worry-free driving.

I know this is a long post, but hopefully the experts out there can advise me on the best direction to take. Thanks for any feedback!!

[aluthman]

If you have no plans to add a larger turbo (even a k04), rebuild it to stock. Stroking it to 2.1 isn't worth the cost and the same withboring it out. Get the block cleaned up, paint it if you want, and use stock crowned pistons. If you have dished pistons, try to find the crowned ones. Ask around, and you can probably get them for free or close to it.

The stock rods are rifle drilled from the factory. You are fine using them as long as you have a k03. You will need new rod bolts though.

[james12lucy]

If you have no plans to add a larger turbo (even a k04), rebuild it to stock. Stroking it to 2.1 isn't worth the cost and the same withboring it out. Get the block cleaned up, paint it if you want, and use stock crowned pistons. If you have dished pistons, try to find the crowned ones. Ask around, and you can probably get them for free or close to it.

The stock rods are rifle drilled from the factory. You are fine using them as long as you have a k03. You will need new rod bolts though.

He has forged crowned Pistons.

Is it really that expensive to find an ALH crank and get a thicker head gasket? I don't think it'd be all too challenging to stroke the bottom end.

I'd do rod, just to be safe. What's the old saying; build it right the first time, and you'll never have to build it again?

[aluthman]

He has forged crowned Pistons.

Is it really that expensive to find an ALH crank and get a thicker head gasket? I don't think it'd be all too challenging to stroke the bottom end.

I'd do rod, just to be safe. What's the old saying; build it right the first time, and you'll never have to build it again?

I couldn't tell which pistons they were due to the wrapping. A thicker headgasket costs more than that extra .1L is worth IMHO, then you n\have to buy an ALH crank (and possibly a new oil pump drive gear, not sure). I'm also not sure if you can use the same rods at that point or not. Rods are totally unnecessary if he's never going to get a larger turbo.

[james12lucy]

I couldn't tell which pistons they were due to the wrapping. A thicker headgasket costs more than that extra .1L is worth IMHO, then you n\have to buy an ALH crank (and possibly a new oil pump drive gear, not sure). I'm also not sure if you can use the same rods at that point or not. Rods are totally unnecessary if he's never going to get a larger turbo.

No, I know. I just knew the setup he bought, that's why I new they're crowned.

But, a head gasket is needed anyway, so it's not that much extra cost. He needs a crank anyway, as well. ALH cranks are relatively easy to find.

You're right about the oil pump drive though. Something I'll have to look into. The rods will work; I can confirm that.

[aluthman]

No, I know. I just knew the setup he bought, that's why I new they're crowned.

But, a head gasket is needed anyway, so it's not that much extra cost. He needs a crank anyway, as well. ALH cranks are relatively easy to find.

You're right about the oil pump drive though. Something I'll have to look into. The rods will work; I can confirm that.

A stock head gasket can be had for $32 (Elring from ECS) and the only thicker head gaskets I've seen were in the $200 range.

[rongeur]

TBH, the whole thing is being built ground up here. I would recommend forget any boring of the block, that would add aftermarket piston costs etc etc.

I would find some BPY pistons (forged crowned - I have a set if interested).
I would install IE drop in rods - you never know where you want to go in the future and they are the main limiting factor for bigger torqier turbos and they are not that expensive.
OE bearings
Ball hone
Polish and balance crank once you track one down - I have tip tronic crank in good condition if that is your need)
1.8t pump is fine and most economical route, especially if you are questioning your balance shaft unit.
Hopefully you still have the mains....
You will need new front and rear crankshaft seals too

You should have bullet proof stock spec block with the above with minimal cost.

[Okedokey]

What about a girdle?

[aluthman]

What about a girdle?

Nope. Not required for 95% of the BT builds, so you'd be nuts to do it on a rebuild for a stock turbo car.

[rongeur]

The girdle is 1g through IE .... Way overkill for what this platform has put out

[drewgold]

Thanks for all of the feedback, really appreciate it. And sorry for the slow response, I was out of town for the weekend.

Are these the crowned/forged pistons?

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160418/598db986e2f2f166a6b44952d87246bc.jpg


I'm not all that familiar with stroker builds, is a custom tune required or is it still possible to run a standard 2.0t tune on a 2.1t stroker?

If I can find a local builder who is familiar with the 2.1 stroker, I may look into it further, otherwise I'll stick with stock.

I'm tempted to go with updated rods but the approx $500 that it'll cost may be spent more wisely elsewhere. Will have to ponder it some more. What's the weight comparison between stock rods and IE drop in rods?

@rongeur Thanks for the offer on parts, unfortunately I'm in need of a manual crankshaft. What's the difference between the two? Seems very often manual/tip isn't specified for crankshafts.

Finally, in MEC's engine build thread, he mentions that honing the cylinders isn't a good idea as it removes the factory finish. Is this the case? I have also seen a lot of people honing their cylinders so guessing it doesn't make a huge difference one way or another.

[Denio24]

Thanks for all of the feedback, really appreciate it. And sorry for the slow response, I was out of town for the weekend.

Are these the crowned/forged pistons?

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160418/598db986e2f2f166a6b44952d87246bc.jpg


I'm not all that familiar with stroker builds, is a custom tune required or is it still possible to run a standard 2.0t tune on a 2.1t stroker?

If I can find a local builder who is familiar with the 2.1 stroker, I may look into it further, otherwise I'll stick with stock.

I'm tempted to go with updated rods but the approx $500 that it'll cost may be spent more wisely elsewhere. Will have to ponder it some more. What's the weight comparison between stock rods and IE drop in rods?

@rongeur Thanks for the offer on parts, unfortunately I'm in need of a manual crankshaft. What's the difference between the two? Seems very often manual/tip isn't specified for crankshafts.

Finally, in MEC's engine build thread, he mentions that honing the cylinders isn't a good idea as it removes the factory finish. Is this the case? I have also seen a lot of people honing their cylinders so guessing it doesn't make a huge difference one way or another.
I think that information is not correct regarding that the engine has a factory finish in the cylinder walls.

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[drewgold]

I think that information is not correct regarding that the engine has a factory finish in the cylinder walls.

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Curious about this, it does seem as though there is some sort of coating on the cylinders, i.e., they don't seem like they're bare metal.

How do these cylinders look to you guys? I have no idea what is normal wear for a used cylinder. There are a few vertical marks on the cylinder walls, maybe from removing the pistons? They can just barely be felt with a finger nail.

Also each side of each cylinder had wear marks from the piston skirts which also show wear, is this normal/acceptable?

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160418/935e18364820beba5baa61599fe7d5f6.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160418/a3aba8c0fe6b723e406bc13d994ecb79.jpg

Of course I will get the opinion of an engine builder but figured I'd see what everyone's thoughts here are?

And wear on piston skirt:

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160418/abbee0aee15daea13a4bc278669626bb.jpg

[aluthman]

That all looks normal. Nothing to worry about. The IE rods are heavier than stock, but are stronger. There is no coating on our cylinders.

- - - Updated - - -

And yes, those are the forged pistons you want.

[rongeur]

Somewhere along the line people started thinking that our pure iron heavy ass blocks had some magic super thin coating that if you wore through it, the bore would suddenly start to wear abnormally etc etc. There is no such coating. It is iron through and through. Now the aluminum V8 block does have a sleeve that cannot be honed and if you get ring failure on those engines and oil consumption issues, you need a whole new engine.

The tiptronic crank has an inverted cone on the transmission side that cannot fully house the pilot bearing, the manual / cvt crank has a protruding snout to hold the pilot bearing correctly and entirely.

The cross hatch pattern you seen is normal and intentional. IIRC it better allows even coating of oil for lubrication than a polished surface.

Honestly, I would ditch the stroker idea. If you want a greater displacement, better to perform a small increase in bore diameter than change the entire throw length of the engine. There are some good arguments to do a small increase in the bore to freshen and control tolerances better for new pistons. I recall the factory has a wider tolerance than some of the guys building the engines appreciated. Increasing the bore allowed everything to be spot on.

[audihere06]

Curious about this, it does seem as though there is some sort of coating on the cylinders, i.e., they don't seem like they're bare metal.

20160418/abbee0aee15daea13a4bc278669626bb.jpg[/IMG]

They are coated. Its called Nickasil. (Nickel- Silicon) It is so damn hard and durable, the only way to cut it out is with a diamond bore. A hone will not remove it. Its very beneficial to the longevity of an engine. Google it for more details.

[aluthman]

They are coated. Its called Nickasil. (Nickel- Silicon) It is so damn hard and durable, the only way to cut it out is with a diamond bore. A hone will not remove it. Its very beneficial to the longevity of an engine. Google it for more details.

Source? Boring my block required no such special tool.

[rongeur]

I have never found a source. Supporting iron blocks and nikasil. Audi uses alusil on its aluminum v8 blocks.

[audihere06]

Source? Boring my block required no such special tool.

My builder told me it was a nickasil block. A hone will smooth it but not remove it. Did you actually bore it or just hone it?

[aluthman]

I went from 82.5mm to 83mm. The two blocks I own have no indicationg of having any coating.

[drewgold]

My builder told me it was a nickasil block. A hone will smooth it but not remove it. Did you actually bore it or just hone it?

Seems that Audi may have used Nikasil in the past but likely not on newer models.

This poster sounds credible although the post refers to S4 engines:
http://www.audiworld.com/forums/s4-b6-b7-platforms-discussion-49/future-reference-cylinder-bores-b6-s4-alusil-not-nikasil-2550188/

More info here pertaining to BMW's use, seems that they stopped using Nikasil in 1996 which makes it seem unlikely that Audi continued using it into the 2000's
http://www.looking4spares.co.za/web-articles/206-nikasil-cylinders

Doesn't mean that the cylinders aren't coated or treated in some way but seems unlikely that it's Nikasil.

[audihere06]

BMW had issues with leaded gas eating away at the coating. In 2006 this was no longer an issue. Pehaps it is a similar coating but my bpg block was certainly coated with something. Nikasil is still used today by several manufacturers as far as i know.


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[IronAudi]

So I picked up a used 06F block with OE pistons and rods (does not include crankshaft) from @CanadianA4B7 on the forum. Looking for thoughts on what makes the most sense to do as far as a build/rebuild goes. Been following some of the build threads out there and loving all of the great info. @aluthman's thread is an incredible resource!

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160416/6bda19032744962a88ff3d058fea30e2.jpg

The reason I picked up the block is that I had my entire cylinder head replaced under the cam follower warranty last year after a catastrophic cam follower/fuel pump failure. The dealer refused to replace or even check the crankshaft, bearings, block, etc. and I have been concerned since then that my main bearings/rod bearings/balance shafts may have been damaged by debris and are a ticking time-bomb.

In my mind, it seems like a bit of a waste to have a brand new shiny head sitting on a block with just over 100k miles on it and being fed by an oil pump that could destroy it without notice. Especially given that there may also have been damage to the crankshaft/bearings from the cam follower failure.

The big picture: I don't have plans to got BT or make any kind of crazy horsepower. My goal is modest gains while maintaining reliability and longevity. Likely the limit of my performance mods would be JHM Stage 2 HPFP programming and an upgraded FMIC. (On top of the usual HFC, exhaust, etc.) I currently own the JHM stage 1 tune but have not installed it yet for fear of awaking the demons that lurk inside my block.

My original plan was to track down a matching crankshaft for the block I acquired and have the short block rebuilt to OE spec with the possible addition of a 1.8t oil pump (I also picked up a used 1.8t oil pump from @CanadianA4B7) to replace the OE 2.0t oil pump/balance shafts. I'm not 100% sold on the 1.8t conversion but am seriously considering it.

This way, I could have the new block installed at a time of my choosing (limiting down time to only a day or so) and effectively have a brand new engine that I won't have to worry about for years.

I have also been considering modest build options too:


Looked into doing a 2.0 to 2.1 stroker but talked to a few builders who advised against it. Sounds like there are better routes to take if I'm going a build route.

I think boring the engine is more of a cost/investment than I want to take on so not really wanting to go that route.

Updated internals? Is there much benefit to going with something like IE drop in rods, rifle drilling and upgraded/coated bearings with OE pistons? Or is it overkill to upgrade from OEM if my plan isn't to go beyond a stock turbo and a JHM Stage 2 tune? Can OEM rods be rifle drilled?

Any other recommendations?


A final option would be to have the block rebuilt and put into storage, ready to go for the day that may or may not come with the failure of a bearing or oil pump. Obviously there is some higher risk of damaging the head with this approach but maybe my block is just fine and has another hundred thousand miles left in it!

In the end, cost is a big factor, with my main goal being to have a reliable daily driver with an engine that is robust, can withstand some spirited driving, and will buy me a few hundred thousand more miles of worry-free driving.

I know this is a long post, but hopefully the experts out there can advise me on the best direction to take. Thanks for any feedback!!

If parts are an issue Ill have a 2.0t engine that im pulling out of my 08 and replacing with a 06 2.0. Your in canada id say you can buy mine and ship it but that might get $

[Theiceman]

just for the sake of discussion i am trying to understand the genesis of this rebuild.

You had warranty work done under the cam follower . so you think you may have damage to the crank and bearings or might kill your oil pump and destroy your engine ???

Did you have any evidence of any of this before starting this project ? or did you just really wanna do a rebuild and that sounded like a good excuse ? .

Im just trying to understand the logic.

seems a lot of work for a theory unless you had some data .

[drewgold]

just for the sake of discussion i am trying to understand the genesis of this rebuild.

You had warranty work done under the cam follower . so you think you may have damage to the crank and bearings or might kill your oil pump and destroy your engine ???

Did you have any evidence of any of this before starting this project ? or did you just really wanna do a rebuild and that sounded like a good excuse ? .

Im just trying to understand the logic.

seems a lot of work for a theory unless you had some data .

Hi there, I guess my logic is that likely there was collateral damage from a massive cam follower failure. (Follower head was completely gone along with the entire cap/head of the HPFP.
That's a lot of debris to be floating around in an engine.

In my mind, it would make sense that there was likely some sort of damage or at least accelerated wear on the crankshaft bearings and/or the oil pump which seems to have delicate balance shafts that are prone to seizing. This is entirely a theory though as the engine currently runs fine, it could very well be that no damage was done to the bottom half. The only warning sign is that I have found metal flakes in my oil (Now the third oil change since the follower failure) and it seems as though it's either leftover debris or the flakes are coming from somewhere else, likely crankshaft/rod bearings or the oil pump. Oil pressure is still good and like I said, otherwise the car runs fine.

In my mind, it would make sense to have a block rebuilt so I know it's 100% sound and like new, I can then have that mated with the new head that was installed and I basically have a new engine that I should have not to worry about. I guess it comes down to piece of mind.

The alternative is dropping the oil pan, removing the oil pump and inspecting the bearings. A lot of work and I figure if I go that far I may as well just pay to have a block rebuilt and installed.
I could very well get the bearings inspected and find out that they're shot and need a rebuild anyway.

Not sure if my logic is sound but that's where I'm at. I'd be gutted if I had a major issue caused by the oil pump or spun bearings, etc. and destroyed an almost new head. I know that's not very likely but trying to make the most of getting lucky and already having half of a new engine!

[drewgold]

I am in the market for a good manual crankshaft if anyone has a line on one! [:D]

[S4NIK8]

BMW had issues with leaded gas eating away at the coating. In 2006 this was no longer an issue. Pehaps it is a similar coating but my bpg block was certainly coated with something. Nikasil is still used today by several manufacturers as far as i know.

The bmw failures were related to sulfur content in the fuel not lead.

[audihere06]

The bmw failures were related to sulfur content in the fuel not lead.

Correct because leaded gasoline used to contain small amounts of sulfur.

[S4NIK8]

Correct because leaded gasoline used to contain small amounts of sulfur.

Don't want to clutter OP's thread - but sulfur levels in gasoline are unrelated to lead content. It is naturally occurring in crude oil and needs to be removed as a seperate step.

Related to the thread, a friend of mine (engineer at the Audi factory) says he is unaware of them using nikasil in these engines.