My possible Big Brake Kit options

[Audi Juice]

Let me start by saying that I'm itching for a BBK badly! I have done hours of searching in the archives and I have seen a lot of conflicting opinions about many of the brake kits available for our cars.

Here are my options:

1. Porsche Cayenne calipers and ECS Rotors..NOTE---I have 2 sets of Cayenne calipers that I acquired from a friend who is a Porsche tech, so I would only need rotors. Still not sure if I want to run them or bump up to a higher grade kit. 6 piston
http://www.ecstuning.com/stage/images/product/brakes/ECS-Stage4/support/KitShot-400x300.jpg

2. Stoptech- Seem reasonably priced, but have heard some negative things overall. 4 piston
http://www.nismo.com.au/pricelists/stoptech/stoptech_brakes.jpg


3. Stasis/Alcon- Very sweet, but a tiny bit outside of price range. 4 piston
http://www.goapr.com/Audi/products/images/stasis_brake_motorsport3_th.jpg

4. Brembo-Also slightly over budget, but do-able. 4 piston
http://www.custom-performance.net/productcart/pc/catalog/brembo-black_937_detail.jpg

5. RS4 Oem set up- Cons...Possible master cylinder incompatibility. Wheel offset problems as well. 8 piston
http://shop.dthaus.com/images/1211663340758-66745518.jpeg

What do you guys run, or what would you recommend for the B7 that isnt tracked, but very aggressively driven on the street? I average 16-17mpg.

Finally, budget is $2500 out the door. Oh, and what color should the calipers be for my Ibis? Im thinking silver or black

[ginkof]

i would skip ECS. ive heard bad things about their rotors. If you have Cayanne calipers then i say find a porsche or other OEM easily accessible rotor that will work and find a machine shop to make you the correct bracket. With any of the pre made kits, they are all going to be awesome. I love stoptechs

[Audi Juice]

^^No brackets necessary. They bolt directly on B6/B7, which makes it even more tempting. Hmmm

[Jersey90TQ]

^^No brackets necessary. They bolt directly on B6/B7, which makes it even more tempting. Hmmm


if they bolt directly up then i would go buy some rotors and put them on. you are halfway there why go out and spend money on another kit? and if for some reason you dont like it then sell it and get one of the other kits [up]

[10MPG]

scoop up 1sicknickel's old setup 6 pot brembo setup. u can still have some change for install

[Goped220]

Stoptech all the way.

[Sharkfin]

I vote Stasis Alcon but those things are expensive.

[yettavr6]

What size rotors do you use with the porsche calipers? standard B7, s4, ??

[Doctor]

I had these options as well...

I went with those...

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k4/MikeDoctor/b9b557fe.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k4/MikeDoctor/3eb7c38b.jpg

D2 Racing, 8pot, 330 mm .
Very very satisfied with those...

[grauler02]

I'd PM 1sicknickel. Could get his for under budget

[Kuang87]

How aggressive are you driving on the streets? I went with Alcons and also did the rear upgrade and even though it was a bit expensive, I think it was well worth it because I can stop on a dime and they look awesome too.

[D.C. Designs]

STASIS

[UFfitz56]

Have you considered these? Great kit for your budget including install.http://goapr.com/Audi/products/brake_brembo_b7a4.html#Stage%20II

[A4Ferrari]

i love my stasis alcons

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m140/chuckstyl5/car004.jpg

[praudi]

buy sicknickel's bbk

[Quattro]

alcon FTW!

casey why you need a bbk though? planning on tracking or racing?

[swoardrider]

alcon FTW!

casey why you need a bbk though? planning on tracking or racing?

Exactly! I would never of spent $4k on my Alcons if I didn't track them once a month. Because you don't track your car at all, it doesn't make sense to even spend $2k on a BBK.
Save the money for a BT kit or something.
Since you already have the most expensive part of a BBK, (your Porsche calipers) then grab some rotors that fit and be done with it.
Your goal seems to be to look better and stop better than stock. Your Porsche set up will accomplish this goal in the most economical way.

[Sharkfin]

Exactly! I would never of spent $4k on my Alcons if I didn't track them once a month. Because you don't track your car at all, it doesn't make sense to even spend $2k on a BBK.
Save the money for a BT kit or something.
Since you already have the most expensive part of a BBK, (your Porsche calipers) then grab some rotors that fit and be done with it.
Your goal seems to be to look better and stop better than stock. Your Porsche set up will accomplish this goal in the most economical way.

AGREED!

[jba]

Do the ECS kit. If it doesn't work for you, i can heartily recommend a stasis/alcon bbk.

[Bauer]

responded to you on the B5 thread....

Alcon FTW.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=233703&page=8

[johnnybravo!]

Exactly! I would never of spent $4k on my Alcons if I didn't track them once a month. Because you don't track your car at all, it doesn't make sense to even spend $2k on a BBK.
Save the money for a BT kit or something.
Since you already have the most expensive part of a BBK, (your Porsche calipers) then grab some rotors that fit and be done with it.
Your goal seems to be to look better and stop better than stock. Your Porsche set up will accomplish this goal in the most economical way.

Ya what he said..but..if u desire a bbk the Stoptech 332mm/355mm 4-piston/black calipers is a proven setup...believe me u wont exceed the capabilty of the ST's..to spend more $$ on 6-piston is overkill..but sure looks pimp

[Audi Juice]

scoop up 1sicknickel's old setup 6 pot brembo setup. u can still have some change for install

Ive already talked to him, but his post was just a feeler. He isnt ready to sell yet.


What size rotors do you use with the porsche calipers? standard B7, s4, ??

Most kits have 352x32mm rotors for these calipers.


alcon FTW!

casey why you need a bbk though? planning on tracking or racing?

I can push these brakes to the limit now just driving on the street. Just thought it would be safer and more fun, plus look cool. The most important reason is to reduce unsprung weight though. Even though the bbk is bigger you will be shedding pounds off each corner, and that will translate into noticable differences in acceleration/handling.

[NYSpeedRacer]

So you guys are telling me that my 911 Calipers would bolt directly onto my B7 without brackets? If so I"m doing this tomorrow! Do I need bigger rotors or keep the stock ones?

[Audi Juice]

So you guys are telling me that my 911 Calipers would bolt directly onto my B7 without brackets? If so I"m doing this tomorrow! Do I need bigger rotors or keep the stock ones?

No, just the Cayenne calipers bolt directly up. The 911 calipers(993 ones at least) need a custom bracket in order to mount. I also have a set of yellow 996 calipers that were part of the PCCB carbon ceramic kit. I dont want to have to worry about finding brackets though. The Cayenne way seems easier for me.

Yes, you need bigger rotors. Looks like the only two options are the ECS rotors, or getting a set of oem porsche rotors redrilled. Also, one of the Porsche techs I know said they pulled this conversion off with RS4 rotors. Im going to look into that a bit further

[supamannn99]

just save your money and go with the porsche calipers. can't go wrong. they're basically brembos

[Maverik869]

Whats the part # for the Cayenne brake calipers? how much do they usually run?

I was thinking of doing S4 upgrade on my B7 A4 S-line but if Porsche caliper is a direct bolt on and accepts bigger rotor I might go that route instead. Anyone know the price difference?

[Jason@PenskeAudi]

STaSIS.

[mtxsho93]

Contact Todd Cook at http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com

Ian

[JBM]

Funny nobody has said Rotora-355MM 6 Piston come in special colors such as Gold, DK Blue, Chrome, etc etc.

I can meet that budget of yours btw.

[Maverik869]

Contact Todd Cook at http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com

Ian

I had Wilwoods on my VW mk3 Golf 2.0t and they were good but after about 2000 miles they started to make noise.. it was very annoying and many other people with that setup said the same thing. Also they need to be rebuilt frequently. [down]

For Race purpose, they cannot be beat as pads are easy to swap out when you get to the track![up]

[mtxsho93]

I had Wilwoods on my VW mk3 Golf 2.0t and they were good but after about 2000 miles they started to make noise.. it was very annoying and many other people with that setup said the same thing. Also they need to be rebuilt frequently. [down]

For Race purpose, they cannot be beat as pads are easy to swap out when you get to the track![up]

Which calipers were you using? I had the Billet Superlites which flexed and creaked and were generally a very poor design. I've been running the forged Superlites for a few years now without a single issue (knock on wood).

Replacement costs, pad choices and availability can't be beat with the wilwoods. IMO, their better calipers are just as good as brembo/AP/StopTech for a fraction of the cost.

Ian

[Maverik869]

Which calipers were you using? I had the Billet Superlites which flexed and creaked and were generally a very poor design. I've been running the forged Superlites for a few years now without a single issue (knock on wood).


http://www.momentummotorparts.com/store/braking.asp

[tdavit]

im pretty sure that the only way that the calipers mount up without a bracket is if you are using stock size rotors. because the bracket is to move the caliper further from the center point (axle center) and correct the offset if needed.

[mtxsho93]

http://www.momentummotorparts.com/store/braking.asp

Oh ok, those are the Dynalite's. I'm not a big fan of those for anything that's driven on the street. From Wilwood's site: "The time proven Dynalite caliper design is stronger and lighter than ever - ideal for Late Models, Modifieds, Sprints, Road Racers and Dragsters."

The Superlite series and better are much more suitable for heavier street cars.

Ian

[Bauer]

Which calipers were you using? I had the Billet Superlites which flexed and creaked and were generally a very poor design. I've been running the forged Superlites for a few years now without a single issue (knock on wood).

Replacement costs, pad choices and availability can't be beat with the wilwoods. IMO, their better calipers are just as good as brembo/AP/StopTech for a fraction of the cost.

Ian

Wilwood is nowhere near the quality of Brembo or AP.

How I would rank

Alcon
Brembo (depending on level - their race stuff is great but like 8k)
AP
Movit
StopTech
Wilwood

Brembo and Alcon are very close....it just depends on which Brembo you are going with as there are many different levels. The OEM stuff is just OK, IMO. Alcon, Brembo and AP race stuff is very good but super spendy.

[JBM]

http://bowler.co.uk/sc430/rotora1.jpg

What I'm getting once the market bounces back. 355MM, 2 Piece H2 Pad so ST60 config selection. 6 pistons and I'm getting it for $2525 ;) Oh you can get it in Blue,Red,Green,Chrome,Yellow,Gold,Gunmental..and black.

[BremboGuy]

Here are my options:

1. Porsche Cayenne calipers and ECS Rotors..NOTE---I have 2 sets of Cayenne calipers that I acquired from a friend who is a Porsche tech, so I would only need rotors. Still not sure if I want to run them or bump up to a higher grade kit. 6 piston


2. Stoptech- Seem reasonably priced, but have heard some negative things overall. 4 piston



3. Stasis/Alcon- Very sweet, but a tiny bit outside of price range. 4 piston


4. Brembo-Also slightly over budget, but do-able. 4 piston


5. RS4 Oem set up- Cons...Possible master cylinder incompatibility. Wheel offset problems as well. 8 piston

[SIZE="5"]What do you guys run, or what would you recommend for the B7 that isnt tracked, but very aggressively driven on the street? I average 16-17mpg.



Have you taken a look at this particular Brembo option?

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a329/freeriderizzle/1A5.jpg
***May not be an exact example for your vehicle.

320x32mm 4-piston Brembo Gran Turismo system

Retails for $1995.
Red - Black -or- Silver ... Cross-Drilled -or- Slotted

Comes complete with Brembo 4-piston calipers, 1pc. oversized cross drilled OR slotted rotors, street performance /or/ race pads, stainless steel braided lines, and all necessary mounting hardware.

Engineer with attention to proper piston area and disc diameters to maintain optimum brake bias and compatibility with factory master cylinder, ABS and traction control systems.

The intention was to provide a cost effective solution, engineered and manufactured by Brembo, as an alternative to systems of lesser quality that may or may not be ideally suited for your application.


With a budget of $2500, you are not very far off of a Grand Turismo brake kit with 2pc. fully floating discs.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a329/freeriderizzle/1H1.jpg

Retails $3195
Red - Black -or- Silver ... Cross-Drilled -or- Slotted

There are plenty of Authorized Brembo dealers who sponsor/advertise on this site than can help you out with sales and technical support as well as pricing.

[Q-Ball]

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i7/cquan/MOD20.jpg

Go this way. You won't be disappointed.

[mtxsho93]

Wilwood is nowhere near the quality of Brembo or AP.

How I would rank

Alcon
Brembo (depending on level - their race stuff is great but like 8k)
AP
Movit
StopTech
Wilwood

Brembo and Alcon are very close....it just depends on which Brembo you are going with as there are many different levels. The OEM stuff is just OK, IMO. Alcon, Brembo and AP race stuff is very good but super spendy.

I was referring more to function vs. cost. That said, Wilwoods or Brembos will still stop the car and can be spec'ed out very similarly. The other brands are high quality but I've never had an issue with my Wilwood forged superlites.

Ian

[vwong]

http://bowler.co.uk/sc430/rotora1.jpg

What I'm getting once the market bounces back. 355MM, 2 Piece H2 Pad so ST60 config selection. 6 pistons and I'm getting it for $2525 ;) Oh you can get it in Blue,Red,Green,Chrome,Yellow,Gold,Gunmental..and black.

Don't waste your money on those. Their quality is nowhere near the quality of the Brembo, Alcon, AP, etc. They are not engineered properly, and not test-proven. There is a reason for the low MSRP.

[BremboGuy]

I know it's a played out cliche...but there is truth in "You get what you pay for".
Too bad marketing always seems to win over common sense decision making.

Common sense says that if there were such a thing as "better AND lower priced" (or even "as good as" but still lower priced), that product would dominate in it's specific market.

Unfortunately in the aftermarket world people are willing to accept lower quality and lesser qualified products to save a few bucks, not knowing (or possibly not caring) that in the long run it will cost them more money.

Quote of the year:
If you can't afford to do it right the first time, what makes you think you can afford to do it twice?

[johnnybravo!]

So what pads are u currently using?? Consider Carbotech or Porterfields mang..u threshhold braking on streets with stockers??

[GhostSquadGarage]

Stoptech for your budget.

[NYSpeedRacer]

Cayenne S or Turbo Cayenne Rotors?

[Maverik869]

Cayenne S or Turbo Cayenne Rotors?

so...

from some research that I did I don't think the rotor is from any of those models.

reason being is this (this is direct from Porsche website)


The front disc dimensions (diameter/thickness) are 12.99 in./1.26 in. (330mm / 32mm) on the new Cayenne, 13.78 in./1.34 in. (350mm / 34mm) on the new Cayenne S and 14.49 in./1.42 in. (368mm / 36mm) (front) on the new Cayenne Turbo.

All three models have six-piston monobloc aluminum brake calipers at the front and fourpiston equivalents at the rear. To compensate for its increased engine performance, the Cayenne Turbo has much larger front calipers. <--[confused]

As a visual differentiation, the calipers are finished black on the Cayenne, silver on the Cayenne S and red on the Cayenne Turbo.

anyone has access to Porsche Parts catalog to confirm what caliper are ECS is using for the Stage 4 kits? Are all Cayenne calipers the same?

I am thinking of doing the Porsche setup for my car instead of S4 upgrade so if anyone has any info on this, please post!

TIA

[Jim@STaSIS]

bremboguy - well said!

thanks all for the stasis love. i'm biased of course but in terms of feel, power, technology, reliability, etc. the alcon kit is hard to fault. to the op, pay attention to caliper construction - you want a monoblock, something properly sealed for street use. also note rotor metallurgy and vaning - all critical factors and greatly effect the rotor's efficacy as a heatsink. and don't forget to buy something from a company you can call up for parts, support, etc. brakes are important, don't skimp!

-alconguy ;-)

[mtxsho93]

anyone has access to Porsche Parts catalog to confirm what caliper are ECS is using for the Stage 4 kits? Are all Cayenne calipers the same?

I am thinking of doing the Porsche setup for my car instead of S4 upgrade so if anyone has any info on this, please post!

TIA

http://www.pelicanparts.com/MotorCity/wmv/brakes.htm

[yettavr6]

Im just curious what problems people have had with the ECS rotors? They are very tempting for the weight savings alone. I was going to do the S4 upgrade with OEM rotors (i actually have them already if anyone is interested) but decided not to when i realized how much more they weigh.

[KQuattro]

Hi ppl

If one was to fit the Cayenne calipers onto the b7 a4, how would this effect the abs and tration control ? how would you integrate the Cayenne calipers with the a4's abs system ?

Thanks
Ray (From across the pond)

[slimmj0k3r]

i'd go with the Stasis setup

[Bauer]

i'd go with the Stasis setup

big 2nd

Trying to cut corners only to end up buying a proper kit in the end and spend all that time and money to get where you could have been out the gate. See it a thousand times.....I would rather spend the money once and do it right once.

[Louis J.]

Exactly! I would never of spent $4k on my Alcons if I didn't track them once a month. Because you don't track your car at all, it doesn't make sense to even spend $2k on a BBK.
Save the money for a BT kit or something.
Since you already have the most expensive part of a BBK, (your Porsche calipers) then grab some rotors that fit and be done with it.
Your goal seems to be to look better and stop better than stock. Your Porsche set up will accomplish this goal in the most economical way.

+1000

Zero need for a BBK even for light tracking. If you want bling, the Cayanne calipers are massive and will look great. If you want performance, all you need is better fluid, good SS lines and better pads...maybe S4 rotors.

[Maverik869]

So i spoke with ECS. Calipers are not direct bolt on and do require adapters.

See bottom right...

http://www.ecstuning.com/stage/images/dis/4923/600/4923.jpg

[GhostSquadGarage]

True...unless you want the "look" of the BBK then upgraded rotors\fluid\ss lines\pads will make a huge difference in the stopping power and feel itself for the street and run you about 1\4 the price.
Look at the deal we have going on right now for the combo package of upgrading the OEM components.

[CoreyRandmetz]

True...unless you want the "look" of the BBK then upgraded rotors\fluid\ss lines\pads will make a huge difference in the stopping power and feel itself for the street and run you about 1\4 the price.
Look at the deal we have going on right now for the combo package of upgrading the OEM components.

the brake upgrade looks awesome![up]

[Audi Juice]

so...

from some research that I did I don't think the rotor is from any of those models.

reason being is this (this is direct from Porsche website)


anyone has access to Porsche Parts catalog to confirm what caliper are ECS is using for the Stage 4 kits? Are all Cayenne calipers the same?

I am thinking of doing the Porsche setup for my car instead of S4 upgrade so if anyone has any info on this, please post!

TIA


They are using the Cayenne S calipers. Not sure of the reason why they decided to lower to 352mm diameter and then thinner on the width at 32mm. Also..... The standard Cayenne calipers are unpainted metal. So you know if you have "big reds" then they are at least from the S or the Turbo.


So i spoke with ECS. Calipers are not direct bolt on and do require adapters.


I personally know of 2 people running these on their cars without brackets. Oh.... This quote is dircetly from the website. "Kit: includes lines, pads, calipers, ATE fluid, 2 piece rotors" Nothing about adapting brackets.

Also, another quote from them.... "features the Porsche six piston Cayenne calipers custom 352x32mm directional vane rotor rings lightweight 7075 aluminum rotor hats and a new bracket-less caliper mounting system"

If you use the search function you will find quite a bit of people running the cayenne calipers on B5/B6 A4s with no brackets required.

[Bauer]

+1000
If you want performance, all you need is better fluid, good SS lines and better pads...maybe S4 rotors.


What?!? You cannot be serious.....the 'Stock Brembo 8 piston' set up on the RS6 was far to weak for track use and this set up was far better then any other stock OEM set up on all Audi's in 03/04/05 (now RS4 and R8 has them)....I got mine to totally fail on the track at Thunderhill right before turn one at about 125mph. Was able to scrub speed and keep it on the pavement, luckily.

If you really think that is the case then you don't nearly brake late or hard enough. Audi forced Champion to run the stock set up on the RS6 WCGT cars to show how great they were....they failed miserably and at the very next race what was put on...Alcons. Only through some heroic driving (Pobst and Galati) and brake conservation were they able to do what they did. This was not fair to Brembo because those brakes were not the best Brembo had and were flawed out the door for just such an application. The OEM RS6 Brembo pads were far too small the rotor veining and metallurgy were not nearly up to the task as well. They overheated with ease on the track and I got mine to do the same...and I am pansy compared to Pobst or Galati.

I can get stock set ups to fade on back roads as well...it really does not take much at all. If people don't drive their cars that hard and want the bling factor then sure buy a lower grade set up....but get them in a situation where there is hard consistent braking and watch out. Nothing like saving 1500 on a brake set up to spend 10k in body work when they fail.

[GhostSquadGarage]

^^^OP already stated it will never be used on a track and only aggressive street use.
I doubt he's going to be hitting 90 deg corners at 80mph braking late then hammering on through the apex with a cop watching on the cross corner.

[Bauer]

^^^OP already stated it will never be used on a track and only aggressive street use.
I doubt he's going to be hitting 90 deg corners at 80mph braking late then hammering on through the apex with a cop watching on the cross corner.

I was commenting on his 'if you want performance' comment ...not too mention the comment which I did not include in the quote which was 'light tracking'.

Yes, better fluid, SS lines and pads do help over the stock set up...but they do not transform a stock set up, with better peddle feel, brake modulation and fade free performance. Even 'light track use' would greatly benefit from a true big brake kit....to me....if you are on the track at anytime it is not something that should be taken lightly you are in an situation where if driven properly you can easily overwhelm the stock brakes. Rotor veining and metallurgy on OEM stuff is very poor compared to high end Brembo and Alcon stuff....this is very important in rotor cooling. Remember, OEM is very concerned with cost ...give you an example....Audi spends on average 35 dollars a corner on suspension on their cars....there is no way for that to compete with an Ohlins Motorsoprts kit on and off the track...not even close.

If you want something that will perform better and resist fading over stock....yes pads, ss lines and fluid will help...but will not even be close to the performance of a good big brake kit.

[GhostSquadGarage]

^^^But if you throw on some good aftermarket rotors along with the rest it will make a HUGE difference nonetheless.
Obviously there's nothing quite like ohlins\alcon if you're going to be competitive on the track but "light track use" pretty much means you either don't have one close to you, or you've never been and don't really plan to anyways.
We'd all like to think we can rumble down to the track every weekend but for most it's a days drive to the nearest auto-x and most aren't going to risk their DD and go all out and push the limits of the car while on the track.

[Bauer]

^^^But if you throw on some good aftermarket rotors along with the rest it will make a HUGE difference nonetheless.
Obviously there's nothing quite like ohlins\alcon if you're going to be competitive on the track but "light track use" pretty much means you either don't have one close to you, or you've never been and don't really plan to anyways.
We'd all like to think we can rumble down to the track every weekend but for most it's a days drive to the nearest auto-x and most aren't going to risk their DD and go all out and push the limits of the car while on the track.

Like I have said....those items and rotors are a good improvement over stock....as for the rotors you sell..I assume they are better then stock but don't think it is fair to compare them to two piece set up which allows for expansion and contraction which leads to far better warp resistance then a one piece. I understand there is a market for most levels of products depending on the users needs and I am sure your product fits many users needs.

Also, as an instructor with ACNA (which does not really mean a whole lot) I spend quite a bit of time on the track in all sorts of cars with all sorts of equipment on them. You would be surprised at how many people take their DD to track events....we just had one at Infineon with a 100 students and 50 instructors and many different types of cars out there. One of my students was driving his 04 A8 out there and my other one was in his R8....could not have two different cars on the track, lol.

Students R8...car is really quite amazing on the track....he was kind enough to let me take it out for 3 or 4 laps.

http://images36.fotki.com/v1352/photos/6/673844/6784353/infineon08008-vi.jpg

[Louis J.]

Bauer: The OP said: "what would you recommend for the B7 that isnt tracked, but very aggressively driven on the street?". swoardrider said: "Because you don't track your car at all, it doesn't make sense to even spend $2k on a BBK". I agreed.

An A4 driven aggressively on the street, even if tracked a handful of times DOES NOT require a BBK. When I say "performance" I mean "better than stock" and assume people will read the posts and come to the logical conclusion that in this context "performance" does not equal track-worthy. Maybe I give people too much credit.

The problem with the A4 is weight and a brake system designed for a commuter, not a performance car, therefore the stock setup can overheat quickly when pushed. The calipers are clearly not designed for track but good enough, otherwise they wouldn't put them on the 320lb heavier, 340HP S4. I'll keep it simple...think liability. Ceramic pads, larger rotors, Castrol or Motul plus a set of quality SS lines and maybe some air-ducting if track is a definite maybe, are more than good enough to keep the brakes cool under pressure for a street car that sees canyon carving, solos and the occasional track day and I'm sure good enough for the needs of the OP.

Please read before you post.

[1sicknickel]

AudiJuice-Check your mailbox I sent you a PM.

[Audi Juice]

Hey Bauer...What are the odds of the Alcon calipers turning gold after normal/moderate use? Keep in mind I will be doing the occasional canyon run too. I know most of the Alcon guys think its "a right of passage" to get the gold/bronze look on the once silver calipers, but I think its tacky. I need silver behind my wheels, cuz gold just isnt going to cut it.

[Bauer]

Bauer: The OP said: "what would you recommend for the B7 that isnt tracked, but very aggressively driven on the street?". swoardrider said: "Because you don't track your car at all, it doesn't make sense to even spend $2k on a BBK". I agreed.

Louis J.:

The thread is titled 'My Possible Big Break Kit Options"....not 'My Stock Size After Market Rotor, Fluid and Pad choice" So that is what I commented on.

Yes, you agreed with swoardrider and then added that there is zero need for a BBk with light track use. I disagree, if you spend anytime on the track you will improve and typically push yourself and your car. With a stock brake set up you will find the limits fairly quickly....add better fluid, pad, rotors and SS lines you will only move that limit back somewhat. I have never gotten my Alcons to fade or fail on or off the track....so it is safe to say the limits are beyond my skills. Also, Chip Herr was unable to get them to fade or fail as well....I am quite certain he would be able to find their limits driving this.

http://images42.fotki.com/v1364/photos/6/673844/3312493/Chipherrsebring07-vi.jpg


An A4 driven aggressively on the street, even if tracked a handful of times DOES NOT require a BBK. When I say "performance" I mean "better than stock" and assume people will read the posts and come to the logical conclusion that in this context "performance" does not equal track-worthy. Maybe I give people too much credit.

I again disagree...as I have stated before (see previous post) I have gotten stock set ups to fade miserably on back roads (unsafe)...and fail on the track...my past RS6 with OEM Brembo 8 pistons calipers was the example I used. Sure a BBK is not required...just much safer and much better performance which is my point. This leads me to your belief that everyone should come to the 'logical conclusion' that performance does not equal track-worthy but 'better then stock'. Funny,that is not what the dictionary says?

1. a musical, dramatic, or other entertainment presented before an audience.
2. the act of performing a ceremony, play, piece of music, etc.
3. the execution or accomplishment of work, acts, feats, etc.
4. a particular action, deed, or proceeding.
5. an action or proceeding of an unusual or spectacular kind: His temper tantrum was quite a performance.
6. the act of performing.
7. the manner in which or the efficiency with which something reacts or fulfills its intended purpose.
8. Linguistics. the actual use of language in real situations, which may or may not fully reflect a speaker's competence, being subject to such nonlinguistic factors as inattention, distraction, memory lapses, fatigue, or emotional state.

I think we can say number 7 is what we are talking about. But maybe we should all come to the 'logical conclusion' that we are really talking about number 8 here instead.


The problem with the A4 is weight and a brake system designed for a commuter, not a performance car, therefore the stock setup can overheat quickly when pushed

Thank you for making my point


The calipers are clearly not designed for track but good enough, otherwise they wouldn't put them on the 320lb heavier, 340HP S4. I'll keep it simple...think liability. Ceramic pads, larger rotors, Castrol or Motul plus a set of quality SS lines and maybe some air-ducting if track is a definite maybe, are more than good enough to keep the brakes cool under pressure for a street car that sees canyon carving, solos and the occasional track day and I'm sure good enough for the needs of the OP.

Please read before you post.

I'll keep it simple....think economics....Audi puts the same calipers on the S4 and A4 over cost saving...economies of scale.

Sure you can make pads, fluid and rotors work but if driven hard enough you could still get them to fade and possibly fail. If you don't plan on driving your car hard for a period of time and only occasional hard stops...sure, would work just fine...but take a good 20 min drive on some aggressive roads and I would be more worried about it...as I have had good OEM set ups fail on me.

[Bauer]

Hey Bauer...What are the odds of the Alcon calipers turning gold after normal/moderate use? Keep in mind I will be doing the occasional canyon run too. I know most of the Alcon guys think its "a right of passage" to get the gold/bronze look on the once silver calipers, but I think its tacky. I need silver behind my wheels, cuz gold just isnt going to cut it.


Nope...you really have to drive the crap out of them to get them goldish/bronze color.

These were on my S4 that was entered at the EuroTuner GP in 05...this was right after the track portion of the event with Paul Lambert (owner of STaSIS and former WC pro driver) behind the wheel. They had started to turn....but Paul is a monster on the track...so it was to be expected.

http://images44.fotki.com/v1355/photos/6/673844/2751818/EuroTunerGP05007-vi.jpg?1224139728

Here on the ones on my B7 after my tracking them...sorry as close as I have after the most recent event...Also, most all BBK when driven very hard will get color change....StopTechs turn poopy brown and I have seen Brembos turn color as well...not as bad as the StopTechs though.

http://images36.fotki.com/v1351/photos/6/673844/6784353/infineon08003-vi.jpg

[Audi Juice]

One of the sickest pictures of the the "Gold" Alcons that I know of. Look at those rotors glow. No wonder he got the gold bling! I really dont want that look though. Silver or bust for my Ibis car. I guess its not that hard to repaint if needed. Yeah I know, I do like SHOW just as much as I like GO

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/Daveykid/Grattan%2008/alcons.jpg

[Bauer]

One of the sickest pictures of the the "Gold" Alcons that I know of. Look at those rotors glow. No wonder he got the gold bling! I really dont want that look though. Silver or bust for my Ibis car. I guess its not that hard to repaint if needed. Yeah I know, I do like SHOW just as much as I like GO

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/Daveykid/Grattan%2008/alcons.jpg

I have actually been on the track with that guy I believe....if it is the guy I think it is he does drive the crap out of that car.

here is what Chip Herr does to them. Driven so hard the rotors started to turn blue:^). It takes some massive abuse to get them that color.

http://images33.fotki.com/v1116/photos/6/673844/3312493/STaSISB7splitterandcar001-vi.jpg

[Maverik869]

would changing OEM setup to better pad and a S4 floating rotor from say ECS/Stasis help without going to BBK? Seems that floating 2 piece rotors have bigger vents in rotors and probably have better cooling ability compared to stock? This option is only about 1k depending on what pads you get.

ECS (http://www.ecstuning.com/stage/edpd/pagebuild_v2.cgi?make=Audi&engine=2.0T&model=B7%20A4&submodel=Quattro&category=Braking&subcategory=Big%20Brake%20OEM)
http://www.ecstuning.com/stage/images/product/brakes/ECS-B7A4-BBKOEM/BeautyShot-300x225.jpg

Stasis (http://stasisengineering.com/Category_Detail.aspx?id=8&VID=48&PID=183)

http://stasisengineering.com/Admin/LargeImage/a4touring%20brakes_large.jpg

[GhostSquadGarage]

Changing anything from stock will generally help alot. They put just enough in there to get the job done while keeping costs low.

Wooot !

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/element256/GsGPro.jpg

[Bauer]

would changing OEM setup to better pad and a S4 floating rotor from say ECS/Stasis help without going to BBK? Seems that floating 2 piece rotors have bigger vents in rotors and probably have better cooling ability compared to stock? This option is only about 1k depending on what pads you get.


Changing pads, fluid, SS lines and Rotors will for sure increase the performance envelope of the stock set up. I prefer true 2 piece rotors for 3 main reasons. Typically the quality of material used is better then one piece, a two piece allows for expansion and contraction which basically prevents warping and veining is typically better on a two piece. Also, the better metallurgy of the rotor does a few things....it dissipates heat better and will last longer. Which means fewer rotors you will go through. So you spend a little more up front to save money in the long run.

Like I have said doing this will increase the performance of the stock set up but in the end cannot compete with the consistent fad free performance of a good BBK. I think there are many people where this option will work just fine....but as you get more comfortable with your car and have more fun behind the wheel you will most likely push beyond these components.

[dobos100]

+1000

Zero need for a BBK even for light tracking. If you want bling, the Cayanne calipers are massive and will look great. If you want performance, all you need is better fluid, good SS lines and better pads...maybe S4 rotors.

I have to agree, I had zero issues at Streets of willow and Cali speedway, with only Motul 5.1 and carbotech race compund pads, zero fade, excellent bite. BBK setup I'm sure is much better, but for 10-15 laps or 20 min sessions, it is more than adequate and since it is impossible to drive that aggressive on the street, in my opinion the sensible way to go.

[swoardrider]

Hey Bauer...What are the odds of the Alcon calipers turning gold after normal/moderate use? Keep in mind I will be doing the occasional canyon run too. I know most of the Alcon guys think its "a right of passage" to get the gold/bronze look on the once silver calipers, but I think its tacky. I need silver behind my wheels, cuz gold just isnt going to cut it.

For the first 5k miles I had my Alcons, I only ran the car hard in the canyons and they stayed silver. After my 3rd hard track day is when they turned to gold.

[tre]

I have actually been on the track with that guy I believe....if it is the guy I think it is he does drive the crap out of that car.



It is a girl that drives that car - I have been on the track with her. Her husband drives a very modded R32 or 996TT.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/Daveykid/Grattan%2008/alcons.jpg

[Bauer]

It is a girl that drives that car - I have been on the track with her. Her husband drives a very modded R32 or 996TT.

Ah...thats right...she and her husband and one other guy shipped their cars out west to do an ACNA event at Laguna Seca. He had a big turbo R32 with Ohlins, Alcons, cage and all the works....car is very nicely set up. Thanks for the clarification.

[Louis J.]

Bauer:

I won't be taking the time to address your essay point-by-point because frankly, I don't have the time or inclination to repudiate half-baked arguments.

Bottom line, there is ZERO NEED for a BBK for spirited driving, canyon carving, solos and yes, even a handful of track days per year. The heat issue with the A4 brakes can be effectively addressed with pads (ceramic ideally), larger rotors (slotted ideally), high-boil point fluid and steel lines (primarily for pedal feel) for the most part; air ducting would be the next step. The calipers on the A4, and the RS6 for that matter, are more than capable for spirited driving and light track or "performance" applications...it's the other components that need to be upgraded. For regular track use, yes, a complete BBK makes sense but that's not what's being discussed here. Here's a thread where half a dozen AZners who track their A4s who agree with this:

http://audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=210885&highlight=brakes+track

Your name-dropping, picture-posting and chest-pounding about your track experience while you make assumptions about the driving skills or experience of people you don't know doesn't make you right...it only makes you look like a tool. [down]

Feel free to reply but this is my last post on this thread. [:)]



Audi Juice:

You need a $3k BBK for agressive driving like a golf hacker needs $5k golf clubs to show up at the driving range. Your brakes can be greatly imporved for less than $1k.

[BremboGuy]

Bottom line, there is ZERO NEED for a BBK for spirited driving, canyon carving, solos and yes, even a handful of track days per year. The heat issue with the A4 brakes can be effectively addressed with pads (ceramic ideally), larger rotors (slotted ideally), high-boil point fluid and steel lines (primarily for pedal feel) for the most part; air ducting would be the next step. The calipers on the A4, and the RS6 for that matter, are more than capable for spirited driving and light track or "performance" applications...it's the other components that need to be upgraded. For regular track use, yes, a complete BBK makes sense but that's not what's being discussed here.

Why does everyone's OPINION have to be so polarizing? [confused]

The fact of the matter is that just because you say there is "ZERO NEED"doesn't mean that there is ZERO BENEFIT.

The bottom line is that everyone is different.
Everyone's driving style varies, just as much as their vehicle setup.
What works for one person, doesn't necessarily work for another.
[drive]

For every 10 people you can bring to me that are OK with the OEM brakes and some minor upgrades such as fluid, pads and lines, I can bring you 10 more who are currently exceeding the heat capacity of the OEM discs and none of those minor mods are an effective long term solution, including ducting which can actually have adverse effects if not used appropriately.

Your opinion of "ZERO NEED" is only valid if you haven't yet experienced any problems such as fade, premature wear, or don't feel like you are exceeding the potential of the stock brakes. That's for the driver to decide and one opinion alone doesn't change that in either direction.

I can tell you without a doubt that the only negative effect of a brake upgrade is choosing one that was not appropriately designed for the car, and all the benefits of a properly designed brake upgrade will be useful at the track and beneficial at the track whether someone else feels it's "needed" or not.

[GhostSquadGarage]

Your brakes can be greatly imporved for less than $1k.

$730 to be exact [hail]

[BremboGuy]

Audi Juice:

You need a $3k BBK for agressive driving like a golf hacker needs $5k golf clubs to show up at the driving range. Your brakes can be greatly imporved for less than $1k.


(I missed this analogy the first time I read the post)

Funny, but again, it only proves your point while he's still a "hacker".

Any professional golf instructor will advise you against using crappy clubs the second you start to develop a consistent swing and a desire to improve your handicap. ESPECIALLY if the clubs are not appropriately sized for your build.

Same goes for your vehicle, mods, driving style, habits, and intentions.

[Todeshandler]

Bauer:

I won't be taking the time to address your essay point-by-point because frankly, I don't have the time or inclination to repudiate half-baked arguments.

Bottom line, there is ZERO NEED for a BBK for spirited driving, canyon carving, solos and yes, even a handful of track days per year. The heat issue with the A4 brakes can be effectively addressed with pads (ceramic ideally), larger rotors (slotted ideally), high-boil point fluid and steel lines (primarily for pedal feel) for the most part; air ducting would be the next step. The calipers on the A4, and the RS6 for that matter, are more than capable for spirited driving and light track or "performance" applications...it's the other components that need to be upgraded. For regular track use, yes, a complete BBK makes sense but that's not what's being discussed here. Here's a thread where half a dozen AZners who track their A4s who agree with this:

http://audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=210885&highlight=brakes+track

Your name-dropping, picture-posting and chest-pounding about your track experience while you make assumptions about the driving skills or experience of people you don't know doesn't make you right...it only makes you look like a tool. [down]

Feel free to reply but this is my last post on this thread. [:)]



Audi Juice:

You need a $3k BBK for agressive driving like a golf hacker needs $5k golf clubs to show up at the driving range. Your brakes can be greatly imporved for less than $1k.
http://threadbombing.com/data/media/49/CRYOPECTATE.jpg

You are clearly speaking with a load of experience. Here are some prime examples.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=210885

and then you go on to say "No, the car has not been tracked but I have done a few autocorsses this summer." (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2947501&postcount=7)

So with no track time where is it that you are drawing all your "facts" from? And where is it you're learning to drive so fast? (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2859828&postcount=44)

You do alot of track and solos huh? (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2859569&postcount=18)

You sure like to spout off at the mouth a lot with nothing but an ego... thank god you don't have 420hp or who knows what you would do to your car based on your statement "inexperience, a big ego and 420HP don't mix well at the track." (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2967215&postcount=33)

So in closing....

http://threadbombing.com/data/media/28/please_leave.jpg

[Bauer]

Bauer:

I won't be taking the time to address your essay point-by-point because frankly, I don't have the time or inclination to repudiate half-baked arguments.

Don't have the time? Thats a good way out of a lively discussion....but you have time for over 800 other posts you have made...ok..fair enough.


Bottom line, there is ZERO NEED for a BBK for spirited driving, canyon carving, solos and yes, even a handful of track days per year. The heat issue with the A4 brakes can be effectively addressed with pads (ceramic ideally), larger rotors (slotted ideally), high-boil point fluid and steel lines (primarily for pedal feel) for the most part; air ducting would be the next step. The calipers on the A4, and the RS6 for that matter, are more than capable for spirited driving and light track or "performance" applications...it's the other components that need to be upgraded. For regular track use, yes, a complete BBK makes sense but that's not what's being discussed here. Here's a thread where half a dozen AZners who track their A4s who agree with this:

I will defer to Breboguys post



Your name-dropping, picture-posting and chest-pounding about your track experience while you make assumptions about the driving skills or experience of people you don't know doesn't make you right...it only makes you look like a tool. [down]

Feel free to reply but this is my last post on this thread. [:)]

So I guess you take advice from anyone you meet without knowing anything about their experience...how does that workout in the real world? Meet a financial planner and don't feel it is necessary to find out about any of his experience before taking the advice he gives. I post what I do because it is important for people to know where the information is coming from. If you want to call that name-dropping, picture-posting and chest-pounding then fine. So with that being said I am wondering with all your extensive track or autocross experience how you have come to the conclusion about BBK not being needed at all...even with light track use?

See post #7 (notice the date of the post please)

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2947501&postcount=7



But here you say you do track events.....'Richard How is that possible, hmmm curious?"<tommy boy>
(notice the date of the post here)

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2859569&postcount=18

And this here is some solid advice.....

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2729067&postcount=10

Where did you learn that juicy tibit....oh all of that extensive track experience. BTW ...you got that backwards....if you want to dial out understeer you put more air in the rear and less in the front. The advice you gave there actual will ADD understeer. If you want the tires to grip less add air pressure which reduces the contact patch. So if you want the fronts to grab more then reduce the air pressure in the front and add it too the rear....that makes fronts grab more and the rears grab less and therefore able to rotate the car better.

Here is a good one

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=210885

Still waiting on that first track day? (notice the date of the post) You sure have become an expert on such things as rotor design, fluids, pad choices, BBKs and tracking your car in last 5 months.....strangely without any actual track experience, interesting? Not too mention being worried about 'toasting them'...but again sounds like you have gotten over that fear with all the ACTUAL track experience you have.

See I can speak from extensive ACTUAL experience on and off the track in all sorts of cars with all sorts of levels of modifications...but then again that is just me 'name-dropping, picture-posting and chest-pounding'.



Audi Juice:

You need a $3k BBK for agressive driving like a golf hacker needs $5k golf clubs to show up at the driving range. Your brakes can be greatly imporved for less than $1k.

Audi Juice:

Take Louis's advice....he obviously has the real world experience to give you solid information.....and I am just a tool that does not have a clue.

[Sharkfin]

This is getting way out of hand. At least the OP now has the proper information on what is available and what options he can go with so that he can make an educated decision on what's best for HIM.

[Louis J.]

As stated in my FS post, no I have not tracked my A4, I've only AutoX'd it. I've done solo1 and solo2 to be exact. I bought the A4 in May and had my first track day with the A4 scheduled and paid but had to pass it on to a friend due to a schedule conflict. That doesn't mean I've never tracked. Before I bought the A4, I had two 993s, one of which was a garage queen that I sold in February and the other a track prepared car that I sold two months ago. My comment about driving the car fast, refers to learning how to drive a 3,600lb pig with a 4cyl turbo and Quattro coming from a rear-engined 993. I can drive any car, but it takes seat time to learn a new car well.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=220963&highlight=porsche

Post #60: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=210885&page=2

Post #17: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=210176

Nice detective work BONEHEADS. Do you have anything better to do with your time??? Don't worry, I'm sure you'll have no problem fitting your foot through your mouth.

[Todeshandler]

you think because you've owned a porsche that makes you some kinda race car driver. typical...

thanks for validating that you have absolutely ZERO hours on a track in your A4. [up]

[Anthony]

Alrighty, I think we're done here. Thank you to those of you that have kept the discussion informative and civil.