Carbon Build Up - 2008 Audi A4 3.2L

[BEM3]

I wanted to share another carbon build up issue and have already posted this in the Audi FSI Engine Carbon Build-up Megathread in the Transmission & Drivetrain Forum.

Here’s another data point. This is my first post and unfortunately it doesn’t have anything good to report…

Vehicle Make/Model: 2008 Audi A4 3.2L
Location: Seattle, Washington
Mileage/Date: 11,990 miles / 30 November 2009
Oil used: Unknown. Dealer Supplied
Oil Change Interval: Average every 2850 miles*
Fuel Used: Chevron Supreme Techron (91/92 octane) or Shell V-Power (91/92 octane)
How short/long are your trips on average: 6 to 30 miles

Reported rough idle when cold to the dealer. CEL was on. Did not notice any loss of power.

Dealer invoice states:

“Verified Customer Concern. Hooked up scan tool, found five random engine faults. P0300, P0301, P0302, P0303, and P0304 (random cylinder misfire, cylinder misfire 1-4). Followed TSB 2019948/3, added fuel additive and road tested vehicle for 60 miles sustaining high engine RPM. Allowed vehicle to sit for several hours to repeat cold start up. Hooked up scan tool and cold started vehicle, MVB 14 registered 8 faults (4 in cylinder 1, 2 in cylinder 2, and 2 in cylinder 3). Will open TAC ticket. --- (Tech 2751) opened TAC ticket. They said to check camshaft adjustment. Performed check through MVBS 90-96 and they are fine, there are no sticking adjusters. Removed intake manifold and found carbon build up on back of valves. TAC said to perform cleaning as stated in the TSB. Cleaned valves, removed spark plugs, blew out carbon chunks. Reassembled and test drove. Let sit outside overnight and started cold. There was no misfire on any cylinder. Performed oil service per TSB. Closed TAC ticket. Done.”

Note:
Vehicle purchased new with 49 miles / 27 September 2008
Engine (short block) replaced for cylinder wall scoring 6521 miles / 14 April 2009
*Oil change interval shorted by engine replacement
Drove the car from Seattle to San Francisco and back. It currently has over 15,000 miles on it and its starting to run rough when cold again. Thank goodness for warranty!

[JoshDub]

holy damn. well atleast you have a warrenty! thats going to break the bank soon

[Hammer]

It is moments like this when my urge for APR 93 + HFC is quelled. CPO'd until 2014...then who knows what could happen.

[jimrobbington]

Then you trade for a new car!

[BEM3]

After the engine was changed under warranty, Audi of America extended the warranty (non-transferrable) on the engine and drivetrain another year or 12,000 miles.

It would be great to have a new car, but it seems like all the new cars that I like have direct injection.

[Miker2k]

Does anyone have a write up of that particular TSB? When the dealership told me I had carbon buildup causing rough idle/cold start problems there was no offer to clean them.....

[BEM3]

Sorry, I don't have a copy of the TSB. I asked the dealer, but they wouldn't give me a copy.

[Sal_B7]

Damn i definitely have a rough idle at cold start. I wish i would have checked out my valves better when i had my kit installed. I remember my buddy taking apart the intake manifold to put in the new injectors but at that time i had no clue about carbon build up.

[Hammer]

Then you trade for a new car!

It's a sharp looking car...maybe a rebuild into a weekend toy after serving as a daily driver? Keep dreaming man...keep dreaming lol...

[Tanner]

From what I've been told, naturally aspirated FSI engines will feel the effects of the buildup much sooner than forced induction (which makes sense).

[Sal_B7]

Yeah there are guys with RS4's and S4's already dreading this problem. That sucks!

[$lick]

Yeah there are guys with RS4's and S4's already dreading this problem. That sucks!

i dont think S4's are FSI

[Tanner]

Only S4 that is FSI is the new B8 S4.

[Nikoman]

Does the new TTS have this carbon build up issue?

[Tanner]

All FSI engines of Audi's will have this issue.

As I said before, forced induction engines will start to encounter CELs and such much later than naturally aspirated engines. R8 V8 owners are having the same problem. R8 V10 owners will experience the same eventually as it's too new at this time. A4 3.2FSI has this problem. The new B8 S4 3.0T will eventually. The new B8 A4 2.0T will to. All of them.

[scoobyx]

Unfortunately, I have to throw my story in the pile with the rest of you. I currently own a 2007 A4 3.2L S-Line. A couple of weeks ago (~29,500mi on the odometer), the CEL fired (I was also noticing some very hard idling in the mornings upon starting the car). I took the car into Nalley Audi in Roswell, GA. They updated the software on the car, supposedly to increase the tolerance for the cold-start errors that were causing the CEL to fire. The service rep told me that he thought he would see me back soon since he was guessing that I was experiencing carbon build-up in the engine. Imagine my surprise! At that point, I started doing some research on the internet - that's where I initially ran across this board. I read through posting after posting of carbon-related problems people are having with these cars. I hoped, at the time, that I wasn't going to fall into the same pit, but it wasn't to be.

My CEL fired again a week or so later. I brought the car into Nalley again whereupon they performed the second round of Audi-sanctioned service, the fuel treatment. (begin tongue-in-cheek moment...now)I was fortunate enough that a technician got to take my car home for the evening - since they were so busy but are required to put 60 miles on the car.(end moment here) I haven't let anyone drive my car so you can imagine how frustrating this scenario was for me. That aside, the tech brought the car back in the next day and hooked it up to the computer and lo and behold, the engine was still misfiring on one of the cylinders (#4, if I remember correctly). Nalley proceeded to service the vehicle. The car went into the shop on a Tuesday morning and I got it back late Friday afternoon. They had to remove the intake manifold assembly and manually remove carbon buildup in the engine.

Here's where the story gets interesting (at least to me). I had discussions with two different service advisors at the dealership. Both advisors confirmed that this is a "known" issue within Audi. One advisor went so far as to tell me that he's really disappointed that the company decided to use this power plant because of all the trouble they have been having with it. According to him, they are performing this service at least 2-3 times per week. Nice, huh? I asked both of them what I could do to alleviate the problem. They both told me that Audi was working on a fix. They also both told me that I should avoid short trips (not super easy, seeing as how I live in a major metropolitan area and I can easily get to almost anything I want within 10 minutes or less) and I should "drive the car like I stole it...". To be honest, this isn't really the answer I wanted. While I enjoy getting on the accelerator quite a bit, I can't/won't do it every time I am in the car. There are too many police around and sometimes, I even have guests in my car who I don't think would appreciate the aggressive driving style they are evangelizing.

I decided to call AoA to ask them to extend my warranty (time's up in Oct'10 on this car). I spoke with a rep named Lisa who did everything she could to make sure that I understood that Audi wasn't aware of this problem and that this is considered normal maintenance. This is where the disconnect exists - my dealer is telling me that Audi is working to fix the problem and AoA is telling me that there is no problem. I received a call back from Lisa a short time ago (Wed 1/27) informing me that she spoke with the dealership and obtained my service records and based on the fact that they performed the cleaning once and this isn't a known problem, they saw no reason to extend my warranty.

Anyhow, I have been out test driving some cars, in anticipation of this very situation. I didn't pay $45,000 to get into a maintenance clap-trap and I am certainly not comforted by the diametrically opposed stories I am getting from Audi. I have ZERO confidence that anyone at Audi is addressing this issue. I certainly don't believe that any fix will be available before my car falls out of warranty and I am stuck footing the $1500+ bill for the soda blast that they used on my engine this time around.

One last thing - I *religiously* put 93 octane fuel in the car. I have always avoided "Chet's Gas and Guzzle" in favor of the major suppliers in my area such as BP, Shell, Chevron, and QT. I have also only had the car serviced by my Audi dealership and despite Audi telling me that I can go 10k between oil changes, I do it every 5k, no matter what. There you have it - pay a premium at every turn just to have something like this happen. Thanks for nothing, Audi.

[Tanner]

Third paragraph: wow.

[ralentor]

I spoke with a rep named Lisa who did everything she could to make sure that I understood that Audi wasn't aware of this problem and that this is considered normal maintenance.

Wait a minute...Audi claims that they aren't aware of a CB problem, yet they consider CB cleaning to be normal maintenance? How can they claim not to be aware of the CB problem if they consider CB cleaning to be normal maintenance? And furthermore, if CB cleaning is "normal maintenance", why is it missing from the official Audi A4 maintenance intervals?

[mickf29]

I think it is time to get rolling on a class action suit here. This is getting beyond ridiculous.

[TehDolphin3.2]

08 3.2 here with carbon issues as well, 21k. The light went on and off 3 times over the course of 2 or 3 weeks. Every time I made an appointment for service the light went off so I cancelled because Audi told me the computer clears the code. Light comes on for a 4th time and I'm finally able to get it in for service on the Jan. 22nd...Cyl. 1 misfire, probably caused by carbon build up is what they tell me.
Audi's solution for me, pay $170 for us to do a BG service that I'll have to do every few weeks. At this point they don't do any service, just clear the code. Dealer also tells me to beat the balls of the car. I'm not one to tear around needlessly and risk injuring myself, any one riding with me, or any one else on the streets so no thanks I'll drive my car like a normal person.
Yesterday the 26th, light back on.

Same situation as Scooby...5k between oil changes, 93 octane brand name fuel only.

[Miker2k]

After doing the fuel additive service last time and having their techs drive around for 60 miles at high RPMs (I wasn't thrilled either). The service manager told me to "drive it like you're 16 again" and if all else fails to put a for sale by owner sign in the window. Very very disappointed with the way Audi is handling this issue.

[Zebman]

Sorry you all are having problems. I just plan on riding it out and waiting for a performance high-flow head, performance camshafts and valvetrain kits to come out, then I will just swap the carbon-clung valves out! If you know your way around an engine, taking the head off a 2.0T, working on it and getting it back into time shouldn't be terribly hard.

That is no excuse though for what's happening. I believe Audi is either going to or has already started putting secondary injectors in front of the valves to spray gas on them and clean the valves.

[4ringcircus]

This pretty much confirms what I was thinking from a thread I started a few days ago http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=340160. The 3.2 FSI engines heat up slower than the 2.0T's, and it takes heat to burn off the carbon. My 5.5 2.0T is over 100K; former owner commuted about 75-100 miles per day/35,000 miles per year, so every time the engine turned on, it was ran good and hot. From the looks of it, BEM3's 3.2 is almost 2 years old and has 12,000 miles... you only drive it 16 miles per day, or 8 miles one way before turning it off. How long does that take you, 10 minutes? I also see you are in Seattle, what's the temp out there this time of year...?

Since I am a turbo owner, I want to know if an APR chip will help heat the engine faster and increase the carbon burn off. I certainly would help me drive like a 16 year old!

[RS4POWER]

Lisa chick must be related to Artur...

[BEM3]

4ringcircus might have a point regarding the heat of the engines. The 3.2s don’t rev as high and have no turbo.

The carbon build up is clearly a design issue since DI engines spray fuel directly into the cylinder. That said, does it really matter what kind of fuel is used since the fuel doesn’t even touch the intake or valves? Also, why would anyone what to generate more heat in their engine? This would just be another factor to increase engine wear.

My A4 is only 16 months old and has over 15,000 miles (The engine is only 8 months old). Most of my drives are about 25 miles and takes 35 minutes each way, so the engine gets plenty warm. On my shorter drives, which are infrequent, the car is running for at least 15-20 minutes because I’m stuck in traffic. IMHO, outside temperature isn’t really much of a factor. I have owned many cars over the years, including a 21 year old Corvette with 78,000 miles and have never had this kind of problem. I heard the Porsche Cayenne has carbon build up issues too. I was going to buy a Porsche 997.2 C2S but since it has DI, I’ve reconsidered.

In my experience, AoA doesn’t seem to care about customers and this situation should not happen, no matter how you drive the car, period.

BTW, I believe the car still stores a code even though the CEL goes off. I’ve seen a couple posts where the dealer said there were no codes stored because the CEL went off.

[MarkFank]

scoobyx - I have had an identical experience w/ my RS4.

Delivery August 2008. Almost exclusively use Chevron 91 (best available in my area).

CEL #1 on April 2 2009 5,275 miles. Misfires on #1,3,4. I cleared the codes to see if they would come back. First oil change was done prior at 5k miles.

CEL #2 Sept 4, 2009 9,674 miles. Misfires on #4. Took to the dealer this time. Had them do a 10k oil change and they said they've seen several FSI engines with carbon build up issues. Their protocal is to add a fuel additive, clear codes and see if the codes come back. I had the discussion w/ the tech that fuel additive won't do anything. He agreed but has to follow protocol. Grr.....

CEL #3 Oct 17, 2009 10,731 miles. Misfires on #2,4. They took the car in and they kept it over night. Started it the next morning & recorded misfires again. They removed the intake manifold & discovered a decent amount of carbon & they manully cleaned the valves. There were 2 other RS4s at the dealership with the exact same CB issue. Car felt fast again after the clean up! Tech recommendation is that these cars love to rev so drive it like you stole it! Um yeah, I can do that occasionally but don't want to buzz through the neighborhood at 7k rpms all the time. :-)

I hope Audi comes up with a fix. I think a water/meth injection system would help reduce the build up and then you could run a cleaner like BG44k through the injection system every 2500 or miles or so to help keep it clean. The only problem with this is that Audi would likely void the warranty.

[scoobyx]

scoobyx - I have had an identical experience w/ my RS4.

...

I hope Audi comes up with a fix. I think a water/meth injection system would help reduce the build up and then you could run a cleaner like BG44k through the injection system every 2500 or miles or so to help keep it clean. The only problem with this is that Audi would likely void the warranty.

Mark, I am super sorry to hear about your problems (as I am everyone who has posted to this forum noting this issue with their vehicles). I realize I am on the low-end of what I spent on my car versus you guys with the RS4's. I can't even imagine. In terms of the warranty, can you have someone like Stasis or another after-market approved brand put into your car and then have them pick up the warranty? My understanding is that if you have Stasis upgrade your car, they carry the warranty on the car going forward. That might be a good call...

I asked the dealership about the induction cleaning service and they quoted me ~$400. I always knew the cost of ownership on this car was going to be on the high-side, but that's crazy!

If this truly is part of the "ownership experience" for this car/power plant, I just wish the manual made mention of it and/or I was told about it up-front. I know...I could have told the sales guy that I was buying the car to run over orphans in the street and he would have still gladly sold me the car. But if the car needs to be constantly "stroked", it would have been nice to get the heads-up ahead of time (or some mention in the manual). At this point, I am considering getting rid of the car. It's truly heartbreaking because I can honestly say, "I love this car." I just don't want to go forward knowing with certainty that at some point in the relatively near future (read: sometime in the next couple of years) I am going to get saddled with a very expensive repair. I am also worried about the effects, over time, of having excessive carbon buildup and what it will do to the engine, in general. I am not a mechanic, so I can't hope to answer this question, but I can't imagine the answer is good. Also, aside from greatly reduced gas mileage, how much wear and tear am I putting on my car by running it around at ~4k RPM for extended periods of time (from time-to-time, like the dealership recommended)? Surely the oil is getting hammered and I may benefit from reducing my change intervals from 5k to 2.5k (again, $100+ a pop at my dealership).

Has anyone gotten the sense from someone at AoA that they are aware of/working on this issue? I really think that since this problem isn't causing an immediate threat to a person's health (e.g. Toyota's currently infamous sticking accelerator pedals) they're just going to try to ride out the storm. These cars are all going to fall out of warranty sooner or later and the A4 3.2 + RS4 must represent a much smaller footprint of Audi drivers compared to if they were having this problem with the A4 2.0T.

[CBRmatt600]

This along with the Cam Follower problem have been enough to completely turn me off from the Audi brand. Hopefully someone from Audi is getting this information, but if something isn't done within a year, they can kiss me goodbye. As soon as this lease is up, I'm going Porsche or BMW. The completely disregard from AoA is absolutely astounding.

[art1188]

Guess I'm a lucky guy then. I have an 06 A4 3.2 with about 34k on it now and have never had any problems like the ones everyone has been describing. Then again, I'm 22 so I probably drive it like I stole it more often than others :p

[Zebman]

I just hold high rpm longer, stomp it every once in a while through first and second, and use RLI oil now thanks to RS4power's suggestion. But honestly since I have a 2.0T, I look at this problem as extended maintenance, like a transmission rebuild. When I need it done, i'll clamp the coolant line off, move it, take the manifold off and have a few buddies over to bullshit and chisel at my valves.

Question: After reading all these threads about manual removal, it's got me thinking: what is the realistic risk of damaging or unseating a valve by physical removal of this carbon? Is the carbon staring at you when you take the intake off, or is it on the backside and you have to get a chisel to the back of it? I'd imagine that to be difficult to reach.

[Kerby]

These misfire codes caused me to fail State Inspection in NY and no one seems to know how to get rid of the build-up thats causing the car to now run like a 82 corolla, not the good kind.

I am about fed up.

[TehDolphin3.2]

These misfire codes caused me to fail State Inspection in NY and no one seems to know how to get rid of the build-up thats causing the car to now run like a 82 corolla, not the good kind.

I am about fed up.

Did you have an active CEL when you went for your inspection?

[Kerby]

Did you have an active CEL when you went for your inspection?

The light was cleared, but it was still stored, and when they ran it the Misfire diag showed "Not Ready."

I got an inspection sticker, but not the legal way.

[Sanjman]

I just asked my dealership and they quoted me 200 for the 2.0T engine... I'm getting'er done soon

[A4_Eyez]

I just asked my dealership and they quoted me 200 for the 2.0T engine... I'm getting'er done soon

For the BG cleaning?

[ked]

I should "drive the car like I stole it...". .

I was told the same by my service advisor. I'm already a "spirited" driver so punching it every now and again doesn't bother me but, for the average driver, there has to be a better solution to the issue.

[Tanner]

Same here, well, not in those exact words but he did say that these FSI engines need to breathe and pushed time to time.

[Mezzer]

My car is at Independent Tuning right now getting the carbon cleaned out. I talked to Bryan late yesterday and he told me that my engine wasn't as bad as others that he's seen, comparing my 3.2 to 2.0 engines. The reason I took my car in is I am also getting random misfire codes from time to time as well as hard morning starts and with 150,000KMS on her I thought its time for a cleaning.
I do drive rather 'spirited'... by that I mean that I use the Tip mode most of the time and hold the rev's up while driving. I'm going to have some pix soon and will post for those that want to see. I also change my oil every 7000KMS, as the service interval is around 14000KMS.

[EuroSpec27]

So basically if I drive like a maniac I'll never have to worry about this problem? My does car hesitate to start sometimes, but once it gets going it seems to be fine. Also, I have not had the CEL come on and the I'm just about to reach 28k miles.

[oc-drop]

I've had my 3.2 for 6 mos and driven 20k miles (35k-55k) ~ no carbon issues yet. lots of redlines though, seems they help.