Open Circuit Faults - 1-1200km after 2.0T Coil Swap

[Zba]

Siiiiiiiiiiiiick

[e30mclow]

Siiiiiiiiiiiiick

Thanks for the help, man!

I'll report on codes and such tomorrow, and then bang out the other bank.

[bobkatkat]

Fantastic that you have got it sorted. And it is great that you are going to be updating the other related threads. Will be nice to see you back on the road and enjoying it for a while. I just hate to see more mature true car guys come to the platform and community and have such a shitty experience. Hope it is smooth sailing now (tapping forehead).

If you truly have had it, there were two past b5 owners, at the das volks show on the weekend, that have recently sold theirs and are now looking to get back into B5s. They always seem to come back. I think it is a sickness.

[e30mclow]

Alright, so following the last week of messing around, I had 7 codes present this morning, across random cylinders and generally either "open circuit" or "misfire" faults of some sort.
I cleared them this morning before leaving for work, and enjoyed my drive in (when warmed up on the highway, viva le boooost).

Upon parking and letting the car cool off, I re-scanned the car.

Results - Open Circuit Cyl# 2, Open Circuit Cyl #3. Nothing at all for the cylinders that I added the earthing point to along the driver's side bank. Delighted!
I'll do the other 3 tonight, and continue to monitor.

I'm still confused as to how the simple plug-in conversion kits solve this open circuit issue... Perhaps they are using a more recent coil revision. I'll see what part# mine are.

[bobkatkat]

I'm still confused as to how the simple plug-in conversion kits solve this open circuit issue... Perhaps they are using a more recent coil revision. I'll see what part# mine are.

With the open circuit issue and the fitment issues in the 034 brackets you would kind of think there is some difference in the coil packs.

[e30mclow]

I ordered coil pack PN#07K905715F as per the solder thread.

This is also what is listed on 034's Site - http://store.034motorsport.com/coil-...-905-715f.html

The rubber sealing gasket on the coil doesn't allow the coil to seat (snap/click) into place on the spark plug. Once removed you get a positive connection. For the purposes of insulation, it may be worth my while wrapping something to isolate the spacer and metal portion of the coil.

[bobkatkat]

To be honest I have never felt a positive click mostly due to the fact that the fit is so snug that they are very hard to push in. I do know that they are fully seated. Probably wouldn't hurt to throw some dielectric grease in there.

I have the red R8 Coil packs 06E-905-115-x, I chose them for the color but in reading it seems there may be some differences over the 07K905715x versions. I still am confused as to why the pre-made harnesses from 034 or others work without the open circuit issues and the hard wired method that you did with out the extra ground seems to be a hit and miss?? I guess it is VooDoo.

[e30mclow]

Could simply be down to early '00 production cars vs later ones.
Either way, I'm hoping that this is the end of it.

You should try popping off one of the rubber gaskets and pressing on a coil, you'll see the difference. Rather than the spacer and rubber gasket holding the coil in contact with the plug, the plug & coil are actually engaged, presumably with no opportunity for there to be gaps between contact points.

[e30mclow]

Finished up cylinders 1-3, and I'm happy to say that this guy right here has NO CODES.
No misfires at idle, which were previously rampant,

The car is back boosting and driving as it once was!!

[e30mclow]

2 days and lots of driving, still code free!
This is a first lol

[oppositelock]

Could simply be down to early '00 production cars vs later ones.
Either way, I'm hoping that this is the end of it.

You should try popping off one of the rubber gaskets and pressing on a coil, you'll see the difference. Rather than the spacer and rubber gasket holding the coil in contact with the plug, the plug & coil are actually engaged, presumably with no opportunity for there to be gaps between contact points.

Most of the adapters put the coil at an angle with respect to the plug. 034's do for sure. I found it easiest to press the coils into the adapters, push the coils onto the plugs, then center the adapter on the valve cover and bolt it down. Bolting the adapters on first and then installing the coils requires use of the rubber mallet.

[e30mclow]

I tried that initially, but upon tightening the bolts the coil just backed out slowly.
Had one pop out again last night, but I haven't tried wrapping tape around the coil at the mating point between the coil and spacer yet.

[V1nny]

Could simply be down to early '00 production cars vs later ones.
Either way, I'm hoping that this is the end of it.

You should try popping off one of the rubber gaskets and pressing on a coil, you'll see the difference. Rather than the spacer and rubber gasket holding the coil in contact with the plug, the plug & coil are actually engaged, presumably with no opportunity for there to be gaps between contact points.

I am confused about what needs to be removed, something at the bottom of the coill, where its meets the plug, or toward the top of the coil or from the electrical connector? Could you please take some picture of what you exactly removing, before I started mutilating my new coils?

[V1nny]

I just took an old coil and cut a little bit off it in every possible place - bottom of the boot, both metal and silicone, where coil meets the plug, top skirt, two vertical silicone guides on each side, and even bit of a plastic from the connector. Then I compared if any of these mutilations would allow coil to seat deeper or make better contact with the plug. ZER0 benefit, same depth, same contact. Maybe I am still not circumcising in the right place?

[e30mclow]

What part number coils are you using?
I used the ones posted in the solder method guide, which are likely older. I've read that between revisions, there is a few mm difference in the length - mine were probably longer, or the 034 spacers were somehow thicker. I don't know.


The rubber boot/seal that seals the coils when pushed down into the 034 spacer plate. It is located directly under the coilpack, and surrounds the shiny metal shaft.

It slides off of the coil. Once I removed this i had a positive "click" of a connection with the spark plug.

While in place, my 2.0t coils would barely be in contact and would vibrate loose/pop off.

[V1nny]

What part number coils are you using?
I used the ones posted in the solder method guide, which are likely older. I've read that between revisions, there is a few mm difference in the length - mine were probably longer, or the 034 spacers were somehow thicker. I don't know.


The rubber boot/seal that seals the coils when pushed down into the 034 spacer plate. It is located directly under the coilpack, and surrounds the shiny metal shaft.

It slides off of the coil. Once I removed this i had a positive "click" of a connection with the spark plug.

While in place, my 2.0t coils would barely be in contact and would vibrate loose/pop off.

I think I know which kind of coils you taking about, these that have black sleeve almost the entire length of the coil stem. I think these are older revision, that were under recall for catching fire, so no one should be using them, modded or not. I tried trimming latest F revision for tests, but what I actually using in my stage 3 allroad, is red coild from R8, which are identical in dimensions to the regular F revision of black coils, but provide higher spark voltage to to higher inductance.

[B72.0tsline]

I think I know which kind of coils you taking about, these that have black sleeve almost the entire length of the coil stem. I think these are older revision, that were under recall for catching fire, so no one should be using them, modded or not. I tried trimming latest F revision for tests, but what I actually using in my stage 3 allroad, is red coild from R8, which are identical in dimensions to the regular F revision of black coils, but provide higher spark voltage to to higher inductance.

I'm using those coils.....guess I should get the R8 ones and see

[bassist169]

Finished up cylinders 1-3, and I'm happy to say that this guy right here has NO CODES.
No misfires at idle, which were previously rampant,

The car is back boosting and driving as it once was!!

So I did the conversion about a year ago and had the same problems. So, just to be clear you ran the ttl ground- pin 2 on the 4 wire connector to a ground point on the cam covers? Tonight I'm breaking my old (sadly beautifully soldered and shrike rapped) connections apart and going to rerun the lines. Just wanted to double check that it was pin 2 that you grounded separately and not the other ground- pin4.

Thanks!

[e30mclow]

Correct, pin 2.

I terminated the wire from the 4 pin connector to the spacer bolts on the cam cover.

Let us know how it goes

[julex]

just get RS6 coils, they actually seal to valve covers the same way stock 2.7t do, with gaskets. 2.7t/R8 don't, there is enough "holes" for water to easily go in and play mayhem in there. I went through some 2.0t/R8 coils, failed due to water getting into the coils after car wash or heavy rain driving (only the two front ones are doing that since they are on the leading edge of engine). The worst was the first time I noticed that after about 6months of driving with these. There was about a tablespoon worth of fine powder on the bottom of spark plug hole, anybody wants to venture a guess how much water had to boil out to produce this much salt/minerals/oxidized iron and aluminum powder?

[blitz2190]

just get RS6 coils, they actually seal to valve covers the same way stock 2.7t do, with gaskets. 2.7t/R8 don't, there is enough "holes" for water to easily go in and play mayhem in there. I went through some 2.0t/R8 coils, failed due to water getting into the coils after car wash or heavy rain driving (only the two front ones are doing that since they are on the leading edge of engine). The worst was the first time I noticed that after about 6months of driving with these. There was about a tablespoon worth of fine powder on the bottom of spark plug hole, anybody wants to venture a guess how much water had to boil out to produce this much salt/minerals/oxidized iron and aluminum powder?

Any good places for these, I have a set of r8 coils about to do the swap soon and just looked these up, they would be a much better option.

[julex]

they're just normal dealer stuff, either local dealer or ebay or genuine if you want to do it from dealer online... 06B905115E, make sure you get genuine VW coils, they're made by Hitachi. They have white/ivory epoxied top and hitachi branding on them.

[bassist169]

Will do. I'm doing my valve seals at the same time so it will likely take me all night. Which spacer bolt? I'm not sure I know which one you are talking about. Also, did you run a new ground for each cylinder or did you run them in series and solder along the way?

Thanks for the help!

[bassist169]

Any good places for these, I have a set of r8 coils about to do the swap soon and just looked these up, they would be a much better option.

I have the R8 coils and they have been awesome so far. Only issue was cyl 5 misfired and I found oil, hence the valve gasket I'm doing at the same time. As far as water, I've never had an issue and I've had them in both Florida and Kentucky so not dry either place. Only other issue was the occasional short to ground which I will hopefully be solving with e30mclow's solution. The R8 coils work just fine, and seat so tight that I have to lever them out so as long as you have the spacers you should be good.

[bassist169]

Hey guys, just a word of advice... fwiw.. Don't use marine grade heat shrink on your leads unless you are 100 percent sure you will never need to go back and change anything. Since I followed the original conversion instructions to a T and since everything was running properly for awhile I went ahead and made it nice and pretty, and watertight with marine tubing...which seemed like a great idea at the time. But, For a little while today I thought I was going to be out of a car until I could get new connectors sent. I ended up pulling the wires out of almost every pin just trying to get the shrink tubing off. And those connectors are a PITA to get the pins in and out of! so don't do what I did...just use regular heat shrink in the first place, should be good enough

[blitz2190]

Hey guys, just a word of advice... fwiw.. Don't use marine grade heat shrink on your leads unless you are 100 percent sure you will never need to go back and change anything. Since I followed the original conversion instructions to a T and since everything was running properly for awhile I went ahead and made it nice and pretty, and watertight with marine tubing...which seemed like a great idea at the time. But, For a little while today I thought I was going to be out of a car until I could get new connectors sent. I ended up pulling the wires out of almost every pin just trying to get the shrink tubing off. And those connectors are a PITA to get the pins in and out of! so don't do what I did...just use regular heat shrink in the first place, should be good enough

I do all my harnesses with silicone self sealing tape. More pliable than shrink tubing, and the black kind looks factory. It's water tight and comes right off wires because it only sticks to itself

[julex]

As far as water, I've never had an issue and I've had them in both Florida and Kentucky so not dry either place. [...] The R8 coils work just fine, and seat so tight that I have to lever them out so as long as you have the spacers you should be good.

I thought so as well and had to use pry bar to remove them every time I was going to change plugs... problem is that while the rubber wedges itself in there pretty well, the standard aluminum plates are not cut to seal right and in addition to that, water gets in between plate and head surface. I dare you to give your engine a good long wash .

While you mileage might vary on this, why not get the part that was designed for this specific type of valve cover and is of right length too. Yes, RS6 coils don't need plate, they simply bolt down just like stockers using the same gaskets and bolts (this will also ensure that coil won't pop out of the hole either which happened to me once or twice with 2.0t ones).

[bassist169]

I thought so as well and had to use pry bar to remove them every time I was going to change plugs... problem is that while the rubber wedges itself in there pretty well, the standard aluminum plates are not cut to seal right and in addition to that, water gets in between plate and head surface. I dare you to give your engine a good long wash .

While you mileage might vary on this, why not get the part that was designed for this specific type of valve cover and is of right length too. Yes, RS6 coils don't need plate, they simply bolt down just like stockers using the same gaskets and bolts (this will also ensure that coil won't pop out of the hole either which happened to me once or twice with 2.0t ones).

Agree completely with you. I was just saying that I haven't had any problems with mine, though I don't wash the engine very often. As far as the plates go, a bit of the high temp silicone, the same you use one the valve gaskets, between the plate and the cover creates a watertight seal.
If I were starting from scratch I would probably go with the RS6 coils, since they are likely better off overall. But if he already has invested in the plates and the R8 coils, a little tube of the silicone is a lot less than six new RS6 coils. jmho

[julex]

Agree completely with you. I was just saying that I haven't had any problems with mine, though I don't wash the engine very often. As far as the plates go, a bit of the high temp silicone, the same you use one the valve gaskets, between the plate and the cover creates a watertight seal.
If I were starting from scratch I would probably go with the RS6 coils, since they are likely better off overall. But if he already has invested in the plates and the R8 coils, a little tube of the silicone is a lot less than six new RS6 coils. jmho

Agree on use what you have although I simply sold my set and got RS6 instead, much happier here. Funny though how even 034 is backpedaling on the whole 2.0t conversion using 2.0t coils and it pushing RS6 coils instead as they simply are more bulletproof setup and don't generate issues push-ins do.

[Zba]

Agree on use what you have although I simply sold my set and got RS6 instead, much happier here. Funny though how even 034 is backpedaling on the whole 2.0t conversion using 2.0t coils and it pushing RS6 coils instead as they simply are more bulletproof setup and don't generate issues push-ins do.

Interesting. Once the wiring has been converted can you run either FSI or RS6 coils? I'm blowing through my OE coils and it's getting old...

[julex]

Interesting. Once the wiring has been converted can you run either FSI or RS6 coils? I'm blowing through my OE coils and it's getting old...

Yup, the coils are identical electrically with the same connectors.

[bassist169]

Interesting. Once the wiring has been converted can you run either FSI or RS6 coils? I'm blowing through my OE coils and it's getting old...

Yeah, it's curious why they didn't go with the RS6 from the get go, would've saved them the money on developing the adapter plates. I guess they are a little bit more, 10-20 bucks depending on supplier, but that's offset by the plate cost.
What someone needs to go ahead and do is just start fabricating entire replacement wiring harnesses with the new plugs and icm delete already completed. Most guys are dealing with harnesses that are already on their way out anyway. Would be a much cleaner engine bay than either the solder method or the adapter method.

And don't feel bad Zba, I was blowing a coil every 2-3 months when I was just at stage 2... Can't even imagine how bad it would be now that I'm full stage 3!

[Zba]

I loaded my stage 3 tune a month ago and have blown through at least 10 coil packs. Of course these are all old ones I've had laying around but still.

Why does upping the boost blow out coils? Is there a request for a ton of spark and the old coils cant handle it?

[bassist169]

I loaded my stage 3 tune a month ago and have blown through at least 10 coil packs. Of course these are all old ones I've had laying around but still.

Why does upping the boost blow out coils? Is there a request for a ton of spark and the old coils cant handle it?

Don't quote me on this but my theory is the added fuel requires a hotter spark in order to ignite everything in the chamber. The oe coils fail with regular injectors, bump up to the supersize ones used in stage 3 and it's gonna kill the coils quick... But like I said, that's just my theory

[Zba]

I just assumed they were either making spark or not. How on earth can the ECU request more spark? You can't energize the primary longer when you need it sooner due to higher rpm, am I right? Do we need to make a technical discussion thread pertaining to coil packs?

[julex]

ECU is tuned to "old" coils that need longer dwell (charging) time to produce a spark of a given energy than 2.0t coils which require less charging time for the same output. Once you reach given coils "sweet spot" where charging it more gives very little additional output (coil is saturated), any additional energy put into it really only make heat.

Since ECU has no clue what's dangling on the other side of wire, it charges the 2.0t coils like old coils, with long dwell time... too long for that design. This results in 2.0t being charged for too long than it is really needed and thus they overheat.

The side effect is that old engines with questionable atomization, compression, valve lift etc etc suddenly get mega hot spark at all RPMs and puffff, misfires are gone since spark is so hot all the time. But that results in killing coils very quickly in some instances.

[Zba]

Thanks julex. So based on your logic the RS6 coils (same as C5 A6 4.2?) will suffer the same fate as 2.0? Does bolting them down to the head act as a heat sink?

If coils are going to pop no matter what I'd rather put the ones in that are cheaper to replace.

[julex]

Thanks julex. So based on your logic the RS6 coils (same as C5 A6 4.2?) will suffer the same fate as 2.0? Does bolting them down to the head act as a heat sink?

If coils are going to pop no matter what I'd rather put the ones in that are cheaper to replace.

I've had no problems with RS6 coils for almost 6 months now beating on them with 36psi of boost daily, I would say that due to actual contact with a head, their thermal performance is much better.

[Zba]

What will weak spark do? Before it gets to misfire stage?

[bassist169]

,

ECU is tuned to "old" coils that need longer dwell (charging) time to produce a spark of a given energy than 2.0t coils which require less charging time for the same output. Once you reach given coils "sweet spot" where charging it more gives very little additional output (coil is saturated), any additional energy put into it really only make heat.

Since ECU has no clue what's dangling on the other side of wire, it charges the 2.0t coils like old coils, with long dwell time... too long for that design. This results in 2.0t being charged for too long than it is really needed and thus they overheat.

The side effect is that old engines with questionable atomization, compression, valve lift etc etc suddenly get mega hot spark at all RPMs and puffff, misfires are gone since spark is so hot all the time. But that results in killing coils very quickly in some instances.

Interesting. I've had just the opposite experience. The OE could with the ICMs went bad constantly, only lost one ICM over 10 years though. Any idea what causes the OE coils to fail so often if the ECU is calibrated to give them the right charge?
Also, even though I haven't had any issues I'm curious whether or not the ECU can be re flashed in order to change the charge time to prevent the 2.0 coils from overcharging?