Ice on oil pickup...tore apart engine....need bottom end torque specs!

[mmitocky]

What I am primarily posting for: Does anyone have a resource for (or just know) the 2.0 FSI bottom end torque specs for the factory bolts?

Why I need this information, in case my experience can help someone out later:

I went to start my car a couple weeks ago after sitting outside in near 0 temperatures for a week, and it made quite a racket in the valvetrain area. Usually it would tick for about a half a second until oil pressure built up when it was cold, but this time the ticking was ten times worse, and it didn't go away. Oil light didn't come on though, so I drove it across the parking lot near a garage door where I work so that I could see into the engine bay better. I didn't SEE anything, but it was still loud as hell. Still no oil light, so I let it idle for a few minutes while I pondered what the hell could be wrong -- it was idling fine, just noisy. Well I pulled the oil fill cap and it damn near shot off; there was a lot of pressure in the crankcase. I stepped inside the car to rev it, and as soon as I did, the red oil pressure danger light came on. Sh!t. Pulled it into a parking spot, got it flat-bedded home, and slowly tore into removing the oil pan. (Oil level was fine, btw...)

Well, This is what I found:



That 'thing' hanging on the oil pickup is a chunk of oily ice! There was an ice cube on my oil pickup.

Now before you start wondering how in the hell I got water in my crankcase, let me tell you that I have a Mann Provent catch can setup. I posted here a while back some pictures of the install. In the summertime, the thing works incredibly well. In the Cleveland wintertime.....not so much. The thing fills up with water/oil/mousse every few days, and freezes and causes all sorts of havoc. I managed to make it though most of the winter with no apparent issues by just draining it when the car was hot...but I think a passage somewhere froze and never thawed before I parked my car that week. (I had parked my car on a tuesday morning, and left it at work for 3 days while I was out of town) So somehow I got enough condensation in my oil pan that it could freeze and potentially ruin my engine.

Well, I left the engine in the car, made an engine holder-upper so I could loosen the subframe and drop the oilpan, inspected the main bearings and rod bearings, and pulled the cams to inspect the cam bearings. Suprisingly, everything on the bottom end looked normal -- save for one small bearing smear on the #1 main. The cams showed a SLIGHT amount of aluminum-on-steel action on just 2 of the bearings (both the cam and bearing bore). They were merely discolored slightly; I couldnt feel any dimensional changes with my fingernail. Every other aspect of the valvetrain looked great.




So I'm installing new mains/rod bearings, new seals and timing belt, lifters, blah blah blah.....but my SWEET Bentley manual doesn't give any bottom end specifications WHATSOEVER (Really?)....so I need some help. Google has failed me -- I know this information is online somewhere!

TIA

Matt

[mtroxel]

Is this what you need?

http://workshop-manuals.com/audi/a4_...pecifications/

[mmitocky]

Yes! Good information on here...including information about the wrong bearings that I had ordered. Thanks mtroxel.

[drumnjuny]

i'm impressed you're doing all this work yourself to fix it!

[mtroxel]

By the way, as long as you're there are you aware there is an upgraded pick up that's designed to combat ice crystals? Don't have the part number, just know that the previous owner of mine has it done.

[king_j]

Same thing happened to my car. I don't have a aftermarket catch can.
Shop changed the oil pickup tube with the revised part.

Besides the catch can issue, what else would cause this?

[drumnjuny]

failed PCV i think would do the same

[allstock]

Same thing happened to my car. I don't have a aftermarket catch can.
Shop changed the oil pickup tube with the revised part.

Besides the catch can issue, what else would cause this?

Think this is it

Constant short trips overtime building more and more condensation. Not getting the engine to temperature for long enough periods on a routine basis. Adding to that, low oil levels and improper cold pour point.

Never happened in Florida(moisture buildup), now in Chicago and it's an issue I find - freezing climate.

[FraggyA4]

Get this: Click

It's super simple to install, it will help your engine run much smoother in the cold mornings and prevents anything like this from happening.

Sorry about the luck man glad to see you have the skills to do the work yourself.

[mmitocky]

Whoa, thanks for bringing this to my attention. I wasn't aware that this update was avaliable...it is kind of crazy to me that this was a big enough problem for Audi to manufacture such a unique replacement for it. I am kind of dissapointed that something like this is even necessary! My trips to work ARE only about 10 miles, so that is probably not helping the water build up. I am going to rebuild all of the catch can plumbing, and make an aluminum catch can, all with coolant circulating through it. I am hoping that helps with the wintertime sludge buildup.

I am fortunate enough to have a lift to work on this thing at my own pace; my father just built a pretty large garage about a year ago and put a nice bend pack asymmetrical lift in it. Otherwise this would be a jackstand/lay-on-the-ground affair....which I have done before but I can appreciate the luxury of avoiding.

Thanks for posting the updated part!

What is that part # from ECS? Or a link?

[mtroxel]

I believe its 06F115251B. I think the B is the revised part, but do some checking. I've heard from my local dealer that the 10 minute trip guys are the ones that really get caught on this one, though I agree with others that a bad PCV system is going to exaggerate the condensation.

[king_j]

Never had this issue in other cars. I do work 5 min from home, so lots of short trips.

[allstock]

I would make it a point to get your b7, at the very least, close to full operating temp each trip. Everything else is a bandaid, don't gamble by getting complacent. You need to keep an eye on it. If you have water building up you'll see it on your dipstick, oil cap, and vacuum hoses etc. The water in the oil needs to be burned off.

[mmitocky]

I would make it a point to get your b7, at the very least, close to full operating temp each trip. Everything else is a bandaid, don't gamble by getting complacent. You need to keep an eye on it. If you have water building up you'll see it on your dipstick, oil cap, and vacuum hoses etc. The water in the oil needs to be burned off.

Yeah, I agree with you. I will probably install an electric heater pad on my oil pan this time around, in order to at least help overnight while I am at home.

That pickup shown from ECS isnt correct; my oil pickup has a two-hole flange...this one only has one hole.

[mtroxel]

That pickup shown from ECS isnt correct; my oil pickup has a two-hole flange...this one only has one hole.

I'd call the dealer to be sure on that part #. But I do know there is an upgrade for that issue. Was done on mine, but I don't have the receipt.

[mmitocky]

I stand corrected, my pickup tube is a one-hole flange. I actually found a TSB in that online service manual that you posted the link for. The bulletin addresses the new suction pipe.

While looking over the balance shaft/oil pump assembly that came off of my car, it appears that at least some of the shaft bearings for the balance shafts are fed oil directly from the oil pump cavity....meaning that they are seeing unfiltered oil. Has anyone else noticed this? Im just trying to reverse engineer the drillings that appear to be made in the aluminum, without pulling the shafts out. If this is the case, it might explain why some people have siezing balance shaft failures; the pump is sending them dirty oil out of the sump!

[Levski]

I live in Cleveland and just ordered a catch can, these type of write ups make me second guess installing it. The TSB you found is it the same part# that mtroxel posted?

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk

[mec]

I stand corrected, my pickup tube is a one-hole flange. I actually found a TSB in that online service manual that you posted the link for. The bulletin addresses the new suction pipe.

While looking over the balance shaft/oil pump assembly that came off of my car, it appears that at least some of the shaft bearings for the balance shafts are fed oil directly from the oil pump cavity....meaning that they are seeing unfiltered oil. Has anyone else noticed this? Im just trying to reverse engineer the drillings that appear to be made in the aluminum, without pulling the shafts out. If this is the case, it might explain why some people have siezing balance shaft failures; the pump is sending them dirty oil out of the sump!

Yes that is correct.

The balance shafts have two main rods that are what the weights and gears attach to. Each rod is fed oil from the sump, not the oil filter.

Running below the minimum oil threshold or having exceptionally gritty oil can absolutely cause issues.

I'm not sure if it was covered, but looking at the op's post, he is running far too low on oil.


Water and oil so not mix, the water will sit on top of the oil, and if not driven, extreme temperatures will cause it to freeze up, not the oil, but the water on top. This causes issues at startup with the pump being able to siphon up lubricants, but it also is forcing the pump to suck up the top layer of the oil sump which is water. So you are feeding the balance shafts water for lubrication, possibly air when taking hard turns since there is no baffling in the pan, and that will absolutely damage the engine over time. Not only the balance shafts but also the crank and rod bearings which is where most of the load is placed on the engine.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mtroxel]

So you are feeding the balance shafts water for lubrication, possibly air when taking hard turns since there is no baffling in the pan, and that will absolutely damage the engine over time. Not only the balance shafts but also the crank and rod bearings which is where most of the load is placed on the engine.

So would you say the real issue is that the 2.0's weak PCV system doesn't always get rid of the condensation?

[allstock]

It's actually the other way around. Water is denser than oil and the built up water is below the oil(where the pickup is). Hence the revised oil suction tube has a one way valve at higher level. If the lower main is obstructed the upper valve takes over.

Yes, the op did have water - obvious from the picture, but it was collecting overtime at the bottom of the oil pan.

[mec]

So would you say the real issue is that the 2.0's weak PCV system doesn't always get rid of the condensation?

The pcv system is fine. Having short trips during exceptionally cold winters will always cause condensation to form in your sump.

I wouldn't say there is any issue here, change your oil frequently and make sure to drive your car a bit longer in cold winter temps, those have always been two pieces of advice that should be followed.

But usually people do the opposite, don't change oil once over winter, and idle to warmup.

Idle to warm up is the worst thing you can do for an engine, it's like dumping tons of fuel into your oil. Fuel wears away at bearings real fast.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[king_j]

So if I still drive short trips in winter and don't let the engine fully warm up, but use a oil pan warmer like posted above, what's the result?
There would be water in the oil pan, but it probably wouldn't freeze?
So running the engine at full temp will get rid or prevent water build up?

I'll admit, I let the car idle in the morning for 5 min or so before I drive to work. I work 2 miles from home.

[mec]

So if I still drive short trips in winter and don't let the engine fully warm up, but use a oil pan warmer like posted above, what's the result?

excessive condensation in your oil.


There would be water in the oil pan, but it probably wouldn't freeze?

Correct

So running the engine at full temp will get rid or prevent water build up?

It will help evaporate and extract a large portion of that condensation. Eliminating all condensation simply isn't possible, think of a warm engine in -20* temps as a freshly made meal that is put into a tupperware and put into the fridge, you will keep producing condensation as the heat dwindles away.

I'll admit, I let the car idle in the morning for 5 min or so before I drive to work. I work 2 miles from home.

Your pistons need to expand to seal best, in the morning on a cold engine, your pistons have a bit more play, I'm talking miniscule amounts of play, but that amount is more than enough to allow fuel to seep past the rings. Fuel is injected into the combustion chamber at 725-1900 psi, a lot of that fuel is going to seep past your piston into the oil sump, normally the fuel will take the form of vapor and be mostly extracted using the pcv system, but when you drive short distances, your engine won't heat up sufficiently, and you'll be piling on tons of fuel. Not the best for your engine, but in that case, do more frequent oil changes in the winter.

[king_j]

Not to be asking the same, but how can a engine produce lots of condensation if the engine never fully warms up?
In your example of -20 degrees, it makes sense. But how to apply that against a engine that's not warmed up.

Also, after how many miles should I be changing the oil in winter?
I literally drive 20 miles a week in winter.

[mec]

Not to be asking the same, but how can a engine produce lots of condensation if the engine never fully warms up?
In your example of -20 degrees, it makes sense. But how to apply that against a engine that's not warmed up.

Also, after how many miles should I be changing the oil in winter?
I literally drive 20 miles a week in winter.

The same conditions apply. Your engine warms up even if it's only partially, heat dissipates in a cold environment, and as it cools it condenses and pools and forms into water, if you were to drive for a long time the engine heat would evaporate the water and it would be sucked on it as vapor into the pcv system and into the intake, but driving short trips you end up with extra condensation.

Best thing to do is to get a blackstone oil analysis it's like $20 and it will tell you if you should change your oil earlier or later.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FraggyA4]

Oil pan heater is great but it wont rid you of your water, however the hot oil does help the engine warm up that much faster. It also keeps the oil viscosity thinner, instead of sucking maple syrup you suck oil in its natural state helping you properly lubricate bearing surfaces. You will most definitely notice a difference in engine sound when you start up with warm oil. I've never let my car warm up even in -25F I still get in start her and go.